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Massive Rash after switching b12 , possible? and questions

Messages
47
Hi,

I recently switched to source naturals methyl b12 10,000 mcg. I was biting off half of it
and then taking my methyl folate some 4 hours later. Not sure if it's the brand or what..but my butt, back of my legs are all red and extremely itchy.. the day before I had welts under the skin, was really hard, if that makes sense. As well as the itchiness.


I came off the jarrow 5000 mcg after hearing it might not be as effective. Was on that for about 2 months.. Is it possible I'm od'ing on b12? I"m homozygous mthr C6667 T. I know I have issues with anemia as my mch and mcv values are consistently in the top range. And my blood under the microscope shows little donut holes. Which suggests anemia. Should I stop taking it or back way down? I took methyl b12 and methyl folate for a month back 2012 before I was even aware of my genetics.. Never had a problem with rashes Although my levels were off the chart and I still had the high mcv values (97) It took the same highish dosage.. no rash
Obviously my body isn't breaking it down though,

Also, do healthy people have these same mutations we all seem to share? Has anybody tested a "healthy" friend or what now and seen similar profiles? I know genetics plays a role, but there must be another X factor that keeps people healthy.. I was never sick.

I'm Homozygous Vdr tak, shmt1 C1420t, mao r297r, mthfr c667t
Hetero, Com158m, comh62h, Acat1-2, MTRR A66g, MTRR A664A, Bhmt-04, CBS C6991

Once again, I was extremely fit and healthy up until 2011 - age 44. I had some mold issues in a foreclosure (was never disclosed - they knew and treated for mold, obviously not effectively ) and it absolutely crushed me. Now my fingers and toes are turning yellow, brown. and fungus issue. My lungs are weaker, liver issues, possible pancreas, ibs, candida, no libido.. fungus in my blood, some lyme like cysts.. possibly somatid cycle

It feels like I'm already dead, trying to fight back with many different diets, candida diet, paleo , vegan, raw, all with limited success..now i'm on fruits and vegs so I can get some good bowel movements again.. Do you think the mold turned all these genes on? Or my genetics just can't get rid of these toxins? I've taken the charcoal etc and got the tricothecenes down to normal levels.. I was 20x above normal. I've seen vids of people literally turning brain dead from less overload.. so i'm grateful it didn't take everything away.. But it still has left me pretty broken. Losing my libido and zest for life and my emotions really sux it's like my soul is gone.. I'm only 47 and don't want to live with my new personality.. it's not me, I'll never accept it..

If somebody can offer some advice or protocol that would be great. I'm trying the yasko protocol but keep hitting dead ends.. with fatigue and now these rashes.. also trying to detox with sauna and pemf.. it's a 24 /7 job.. business is slipping bigtime. If i lose that i'm done..

thanks again for everybody reading this and considering help.

Matt
 
Last edited:

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi Matt. How much folate are you taking? Mfolate form? If you're not meeting B12 w/ folate could easily push histamine reaction. From the figures you put above, you just doubled your B12 dose in one wallop. Too much.

Freddd's approach differs from others. His experience is that starting low and going slow can lead to methy traps, a lot of discomfort. So it might be that you can just bring folate up to a level that meets your current B12, or rather, your former 5mg of B12. You'll have to experiment. Here are some different resources, and a quote from Freddd.

Also, detox must be a major part of your regimen. I don't know what pemf is. My detox regimen combined elements of Klinghardt, the GAPS diet emphasis on juicing, clay...But the major element has been coffee enemas. It's been like a full-time job, but it's really helped me clear my body of toxins. Even once a week would help your liver. I've just consolidated my experience into a blog entry.

I'm sorry you're so ill. Stress is also a big player in pushing us into illness. I always thought I was handling stress, but not so. Your genetic profile sets you up for feeling bad emotionally. And you've probably nailed both factors, mold turning on your genetic predisposition, plus difficulty detoxxing.

That's all I can offer in the moment. I think this forum is the best place you can be, there are many experienced folks to help problem-solve. :nerd:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537
“Following the newer version of the titration pattern then the steps look like this.

1 - Titrate AdoCbl/MeCbl combo to approximately 100mcg absorbed where healing can “turn on” with 200-800mcg of l-methylfolate. 200mcg will not be enough and will immediately (3 days) give “detox” symptoms composed of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency. If startup does not occur by the time one gets to 1000mcg combined absorbed cobalamins, titrate LCF

2- Identify low potassium symptoms and titrate potassium.

3 - Identify donut hole folate insufficiency and titrate with 4x-8x dose size of l-methylfolate several times a day until those symptoms are strongly diminishing.

4 - titrate AdoCbl and MeCbl to perhaps a nominal sublingual dose of 1000mcg each, watching for low potassium, donut hole folate insufficiency and identify any other new symptoms, and what isn’t being taken care of

5 - Finish titrating LCF to 500-1000mg for now, then identify what isn’t healing or not enough. Try SAM-e, TMG, D- ribose, Vit D, Zinc, B-vits and various things as needed to improve performance. It isn’t a try 1 thing and then another. It is add SAM-e and then TMG and various other things. It is usually combinations that yield results. SAM-e need titration over several months. LCF could take six months to titrate up to the 500mg dose and try 1000mg to see if it makes a difference. Don’t rush things. Think things through. Look at the symptoms and effective supplements for them to get ideas. Most people will fall into one of several groups. Almost everybody here has appears to have complicating factors and more severe things going on, with me it is SACD which is basically long term damage from prolonged deficiency. Hormones get all messed up and will often change during these titrations.. There isn’t a system of the body that is immune to damage from these deficiencies. As there are at least 600 reactions affected by the methylation and ATP the variations are huge in number.

6 - Titrate MeCbl separately until it makes no difference.

7 - Adjust potassium and l-methylfolate as needed by response to symptoms

8 - Titrate AdoCbl separately until maximum amount that makes a difference.

9 - Adjust LCF

10 - Adjust various factors.”

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-detox-story-coffee-enemas.1616/

howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/

Methylation Made Easy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o4uqEDK6BvM


Start Low and Go Slow
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-to-be-safe-on-a-methylation-protocol.26711/

Roadblocks to Successful Methylation:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...to-successful-methylation-treatment-pdf.6827/
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Hi,

I recently switched to source naturals methyl b12 10,000 mcg. I was biting off half of it
and then taking my methyl folate some 4 hours later. Not sure if it's the brand or what..but my butt, back of my legs are all red and extremely itchy.. the day before I had welts under the skin, was really hard, if that makes sense. As well as the itchiness.


I came off the jarrow 5000 mcg after hearing it might not be as effective. Was on that for about 2 months.. Is it possible I'm od'ing on b12? I"m homozygous mthr C6667 T.

I'd actually think it it is unlikely you could be over dosing due to your MTHFR C667t, seeing you are only taking 5000mcg (half of 10,000mcg). I have the same mutation as you do with the MTHFR and my specialist in that, 5000mcg is his starting dose of methyl B12.

This being said thou, there is other mutations in which can make tollerance of the methyl B12 an issue (I have other gene mutation in which can cause issues with methylB12.. fortunately Im still not having issues on the 5000mcg dose even thou some would).

You also may be allergic to something else in the pill eg pill binders or whatever.

Also, do healthy people have these same mutations we all seem to share? Has anybody tested a "healthy" friend or what now and seen similar profiles? I know genetics plays a role, but there must be another X factor that keeps people healthy.. I was never sick.

Healthy people do have things like MTHFR mutation too. The rate is 9-18% of the population does depending on what country one is in. Thing is with mutations, is they usually just make people far more suspectable to certain issues (much increased risk eg the MTHFR gives a more increased risk of things like strokes, miscarriage) and will not necessarily cause the issues in all. The good thing about this mutation is that by treating it, we are possibly greatly lowering our odds of the things which could be caused by it.

Once again, I was extremely fit and healthy up until 2011 - age 44. I had some mold issues in a foreclosure (was never disclosed - they knew and treated for mold, obviously not effectively ) and it absolutely crushed me. Now my fingers and toes are turning yellow, brown. and fungus issue. My lungs are weaker, liver issues, possible pancreas, ibs, candida, no libido.. fungus in my blood, some lyme like cysts.. possibly somatid cycle

mold issues suck. I found out that I have the worst genotype for mold according to Shoemaker. Im sure those of us with it get far more health issues and of cause mold is so hard to get away from.


I'm only 47 and don't want to live with my new personality.. it's not me, I'll never accept it..

I know how you feel, Im 43 thou I first got sick 17 years ago.

Anyway best luck
 
Messages
47
Hi Ahmo,

Thanks so much for your guidance. I was taking 1600 mcg of metafolin per day to 5000 mcg mb12 for about 2 months and then yes, I was experimenting with 10000 mcg and 2400 folate
I'm guessing that wasn't enough? should it be a 1 to 1 ratio with mb12? I"m reading your copy of fredds protocol.. is it really 4x folate to mb12? If so then i really messed myself up.

Latest live assessment,My red blood cells had more donut holes then previous assessment, Is this why they call it donut hole insufficiency? Maybe a stupid question :) Did i deplete my folate? The lethargy for the past two weeks certainly makes me feel this way now that i think about it. I was doing pretty good before

Can you give me the standard ratio's of
Mb12 to Folate to Potassium? are there any other interactions or other vitamins / minerals affected by taking these? I haven't been taking much potassium for the past 2 months now that I think of it. . 1 pill is only 99mcg, is this way short when you start taking 2400mcg of folate for example?..

If I start upping my folate to make up for mb12 imbalance will it affect something else? how do i right the ship?

btw,PEMF is pulsed electro magnetic frequency.. Yes between sauna , pemf, , ozone acupuncture timing of toxin binders with supps and food.it's full time job.. I'm going to start the coffee enema's too, i've been hearing that alot lately - maybe it's a sign

Thanks so much. you guys are great..
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@matters Let's see if this helps. I've been working on compiling a simplified guide to Freddd's Protocol, but am a little stuck in the process. This is my understanding of Fred's most recent references to start-up. Thanks for pushing me towards getting this task done, rather than seeking perfection.:rolleyes:

Deadlock Quartet:
Methylfolate
MethylB12
AdenoB12 (Dibencozide); AKA AdoB12, adenosylcobalamin, dibencozide
L-Carnitine Fumarate


1) L-methylfolate, 200mcg 4 times a day, total 800mcg; Taken away from Potassium.

30-60 minutes after Mfolate:

2) Methyl B12 1mg + Adeno B12 a crumb from 10mg tablet, in pouch of gum line, so dissolves slowly over 1+hour

3) Potassium: Start-up and each dosage increase will usually lead to symptoms including nausea, itching, heart palpitations, weakness, muscle spasms or cramps. Typically these symptoms will occur by the 3rd day after starting folate/B12. Try approx 300 mg K+ every 2 hours until deficiency symptoms relieved. You will likely need at least this much the following day. Symptoms may shift within hours.

High doses of B1,2,3 can make this need for Potassium insatiable. 25mg or less of B complex/day, in a divided dose, is preferable.

4) L-Carnitine Fumarate (for a smaller number of people, Acetyl-L Carnitine is effective)
Dr’s Best 855mg capsule yields 500mg carnitine. 1 capsule/day.

If you have anxiety and tend to over emphasize fears then you might consider microtitrating with the Jarrow Liquid carnitine (freebase). With that you might start at 150mcg a day whereas with the LCF maybe 64mg to start with (1/8 capsule)


Brands and Dosages
Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion 1 mg sublingual
Country Life Methyl B12 5mg sublingual
Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdenoB12) 10mg
MethylFolate Several brands now in dosages from 400mcg to 5mg. For starting low and going slow, Solgar 800mcg tablets can be easily cut into 1/4s
Drs. Best, Source Naturals L-Carnitine Fumarate 500mg
Potassium gluconate powder is versatile form, rather than 99mg tablets. NOW brand

When to Add things
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537
“Following the newer version of the titration pattern then the steps look like this.

1 - Titrate AdoCbl/MeCbl combo to approximately 100mcg absorbed where healing can “turn on” with 200-800mcg of l-methylfolate. 200mcg will not be enough and will immediately (3 days) give “detox” symptoms composed of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency. If startup does not occur by the time one gets to 1000mcg combined absorbed cobalamins, titrate LCF

2- Identify low potassium symptoms and titrate potassium.

3 - Identify donut hole folate insufficiency and titrate with 4x-8x dose size of l-methylfolate several times a day until those symptoms are strongly diminishing.

4 - titrate AdoCbl and MeCbl to perhaps a nominal sublingual dose of 1000mcg each, watching for low potassium, donut hole folate insufficiency and identify any other new symptoms, and what isn’t being taken care of

5 - Finish titrating LCF to 500-1000mg for now, then identify what isn’t healing or not enough. Try SAM-e, TMG, D- ribose, Vit D, Zinc, B-vits and various things as needed to improve performance. It isn’t a try 1 thing and then another. It is add SAM-e and then TMG and various other things. It is usually combinations that yield results. SAM-e need titration over several months. LCF could take six months to titrate up to the 500mg dose and try 1000mg to see if it makes a difference. Don’t rush things. Think things through. Look at the symptoms and effective supplements for them to get ideas. Most people will fall into one of several groups. Almost everybody here has appears to have complicating factors and more severe things going on, with me it is SACD which is basically long term damage from prolonged deficiency. Hormones get all messed up and will often change during these titrations.. There isn’t a system of the body that is immune to damage from these deficiencies. As there are at least 600 reactions affected by the methylation and ATP the variations are huge in number.

6 - Titrate MeCbl separately until it makes no difference.

7 - Adjust potassium and l-methylfolate as needed by response to symptoms

8 - Titrate AdoCbl separately until maximum amount that makes a difference.

9 - Adjust LCF

10 - Adjust various factors.”

DOSAGES, TIMING
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/active-b12-protocol-basics.10138/page-8#post-413853

...ratios, once again.....the ratios between MeCbl/AdCbl/MeFolate + cofactors are of course individual and must be determined by trial and error, right? However, what are the recommended ratios to start out with?

There are no fixed ratios.

With 1mg of AdoCbl and 1mg of MeCbl each held for 1-2 hours against oral mucosa, one could end up with 200-400 mcg or more absorbed. This is enough to turn on all layers of healing except CNS for many of us. A start of methylfolate of 800mcg or less will usually produce a burst of healing on a couple of layers that then demands more folate than the body has easily available and so shorts other layers to supply the ones that are healing causing paradoxical folate insufficiency. So one titrates methylfolate until the insufficiency symptoms go away. This is usually between 1600mcg and 20-30mg depending upon how one reacts to other folates and B1, b2, b3.

While this is happening there is also usually a need for potassium of which needs to be titrated to the level of no symptoms. This usually happens in the range of 1200-3000mg daily in 4-6 divided doses. Again, this is dependent upon how fast cells are being formed and if too much b1, b2, and/or b3 can also be insatiable.

It is via systematic titration, finding peak effectiveness and staying there, not trial and error.


is it a bad idea to mix methyl- and hydroxycobalamin in a protocol (as Yasko sometimes advises according to genotype) if so, why?
I have no idea if HyCbl can causes problems when taken with MeCbl and AdoCbl. Some literature has suggest that it competes with the active b12s. The answer might be determined at the individual level or even the order taken. The thing is that perhaps 10mcg a day of HyCbl converts to active b12s. If one is absorbing 1000mcg of active b12s directly, will it make any difference at all or merely be extra expense. HyCbl before it does anything has to convert to the two active forms as nobody has any HyCbl deficiency symptoms whereas everybody has AdoCbl and MeCbl deficiency symptoms

I take my protocol supps early in the day, before 10am, in the early afternoon I still crash badly; weak knees (feeling that kness cannot support my weight) fatigue, brain fog, general neuro weakness, headaches (different types including local stabbing ones) I kind of go from beeing slightly wired during mornings to beeing more or less incapacitated in the afternoons/evenings....I have upped potassium gluconate to about 600mg-1g/day....perhaps I need more? Any other suggestions?

Serum halflife might be a problem. If I don't take b-complex twice a day I get a 24 hour pain cycle and at the 16-24 hour mark, heart arrhythmias. AdoCbl and LCF usually make for a much more even energy as they restore the mitochondria and are essential for that. Many have found that a second smaller LCF dose in midafternoon makes a difference. Also, l-methylfolate has a short halflife, about 3 hours so I find it best in at least 3 doses a day.


At least 200 mcg of MeCbl and At least 200 mcg of AdoCbl

This would be a desired absorbed level, It is about 20% absorption of a 1000mcg tablet or 10% of the Anabol capsule. This is sufficient to get all healing going subject to other nutrients needed except CNS healing for some people.


Then add methylfolate and potassium – titrate up to the point that I feel best.

I would start the methylfolate 30-60 minutes before putting the b12 tablet under my lip. The presence of methylfolate helps retain b12 much better. When they are started together, donut hole folate deficiency and low potassium typically occur on the third day. Then one needs to take the potassium, say 3 tablets at a time with a glass of water every 2 hours until the low potassium symptoms are gone. They do change that fast. And each oral dose only lasts a few hours. If it takes 16 tablets to get it under control, expect to take that many the next day in say 4 or 5 doses and make further adjustments as needed. Typically after bringing folate up until folate deficiency symptoms start regressing. Some symptoms change evident in hours. For instance for me when angular cheilitis is starting it starts burning before the sores are evident. When it turns around the fire goes out in hours. Water starts accumulating immediately for me with folate deficiency and it starts coming off immediately upon turn around. Then potassium may have to be adjusted a little. It may go back and forth a few times.


Then add L-carnitine fumarate (titrate up to one 855 mg capsule a day)
It has 500mg of carnitine from 855 from carnitine fumarate. Let's use 500mg so we can compare across forms. I don't do this with AdoCbl and MeCbl standardized on CyCbl however, of folates.

If you have anxiety and tend to over emphasize fears then you might consider microtitrating with the Jarrow Liquid carnitine (freebase). With that you might start at 150mcg a day whereas with the LCF maybe 64mg to start with (1/8 capsule)

…Most do best with methylfolate several times a day because of it's relatively short halflife. It needs to be taken at different times form the potassium. So again, folate with 1 tablet each 4 hours might work better than 5 at once in the morning. Like potassium, I have gone into folate insufficiency 6 hours after a barely adequate dose. Take the folate first and wait for 45 minutes for potassium.


CoQ10 is a problem for a lot of people in the first year of healing. It can cause very high blood pressure 190-200 or worse over 110 or whatever. It is dangerous.


Start with the Enzy at 1000mcg which will average about 200mcg absorption. It is qualitatively different from the Solgar.


For the Anabol Dibencoplex capsule:
- You mention that I should put it under the upper lip and gum to dissolve. Being that it's a capsule, do you stick the actual capsule under the gum/lip? Or do you put the contents of the capsule up there?
- Also they're super high potency, at 10 mg a capsule. Would you just empty the capsule to 1/10? That would be hard to figure. What are your thoughts?

I open the capsule, shake a little onto a spoon and close it up and put back for next dose. 1/10 to 10mg might very well make no noticeable difference between them. Experiment. Find what works best for you. I'm relatively insensitive to AdoCbl changes. Some people are not.

I see you mentioned that you take your methylation vitamins 3 times a day. If I wanted to do the same, how does that work for me with the above dosages?

With the MeCbl I would experiment. You might find you get deeper penetration and better results by taking one dose of 5mg whereas someone else may get better results by taking 1 mg 5 times a day.

Most do best with methylfolate several times a day because of it's relatively short halflife. It needs to be taken at different times form the potassium. So again, folate with 1 tablet each 4 hours might work better than 5 at once in the morning. Like potassium, I have gone into folate insufficiency 6 hours after a barely adequate dose. Take the folate first and wait for 45 minutes for potassium.

2 times a day:
- 2400 mcg methylfolate
- 3000 mcg B12
- 50 mg of P-5-P
- 90 mg B2 as riboflavin 5'-phosphate
- 1800 mg Betaine (trimethylglycine as TMG)
- Do you agree that the P-5-P, B2 and the Betaine are needed?


The B2 in that quantity could really increase demand for folate and potassium while decreasing healing. I wouldn't suggest more than about 40mg a day total of B2 unless you find by titration that it improves healing or decreases deficiency symptoms. That would be subject to repeated trials until you locate optimum.

The p-5-p is a big I don't know. I'm experimenting with it and have never had much difference with it. Some can be a critical cofactor for a few people. I have seen no decrease of effectiveness or other because of too much.

The TMG is a titrate by effect. However, it might take a month or more to notice any differences between doses or even taking it and not. On the other hand it can tame the wired feeling of LCF for many people.

As far as the MeCbl and Methylfolate, sore, try that and other dosing schedules. I would also suggest titrating up to the point that no more makes any difference. Higher doses seem to penetrate more deeply for longer. It heals more quickly but not sure if to greater extent or not in the end. A single dose of 1000mcg a day (200mcg absorbed) probably makes 75% of the total difference. Dose proportionality for MeCbl is said by various studies to be up to 3000-5000mcg absorbed, and then a second tier at =>7500mcg injected SC my my own trials and those of others who were also injecting.

- Is this good as a guideline for my minimum dose ultimate goal? Or do you think this should be more individualized?

I think that there is a "sweet spot" for widespread generalized healing on each of 6 or so layers that can be homed in on via customization. I have seen NOTHING at all that suggests that those doses are a good guideline for anybody. For instance I have never seen more than 1000mg of TMG matter to anybody. I have seen a lot trouble caused by bad balances for any given person. My body was breaking down for decades. I've done about 5 years of healing in the last 11 due to loosing that sweet spot over and over for various reasons.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
Hi,
I came off the jarrow 5000 mcg after hearing it might not be as effective. Was on that for about 2 months.. Is it possible I'm od'ing on b12?

Yes, that's one of the more common side effects, although most people don't get any side effects. And for most people, 5000 mcg should be fine. But everyone's different. And as you may know, you can be taking a supplement or medicine for quite a while with no problems and then suddenly become sensitized to it. A rash is an allergic reaction, and you shouldn't continue any medication that is causing it.

As for the brand, as you can see from Freddd's post, Jarrow is actually one of the best - much better than Source Naturals. Some people don't like Jarrow because it takes so long to dissolve. But that's the whole point - the tablets that dissolve faster can't be fully absorbed under the tongue, and so they go into your gut, where they're not absorbed very well at all.
 
Messages
47
I"m glad I could be your inspiration to dig in on the protocol ;)

Ok, so If I"m reading right. it's about 1mg mb12 to 800 mcg mfolate.
almost 1 to 1. actually about 80 percent. I was doing 5mg mb12 to 1.2 mg of mfolate for about 2 months..Only a 25 percent ratio of b12 to folate.I just recently crashed after 2 months of feeling pretty good.. I started adding yasko's protocol 1 month ago with the h12 and a12 and the methylmate drops which only gave a little mfolate bump..it was still a small amount, compared to what I was freestyling with on my own protocol. So, It appears I'm still very much short on the folate?. I know I'm out of balance now, because everything basically crashed. my body protested. I can see this now with heavy fur coating on the back of tongue..I was almost pink to the back of tongue and those stubborn cracks were filling in. I'm assuming the b12 was helping with that, Now i just feel out of sorts.. I was doing so much better before I added in the additional yasko protocol but that could just be coincidence since the dosages were quite small in comparison to what I was ingesting,. I think i've overdone the b12. If I reboot this thing and just do the minimums even at the proper ratios, i think it's going to take several months to "catch up" on folate

I guess i'm kind of looking for a hack.. I know it's riskly but thinking about doing a 3 to 1 folate to b12 ratio for about a month (at the very least 2 to 1), and adding in the potassium at the levels you recommend.. After the month or feeling ok and tongue looking ok again,and libido, zest returning, follow the standard protocol you and freddd are suggesting.. thoughts on this? Also correct me if i'm wrong on the percentages/ratio's. I realize the a12 changes the ratio to more like 50percent of b12's to folate, but I don't even want to factor that in yet since it wasn't what I was megadosing on and it works more on cns.. yes? btw, i was taking l carnitine tartarate (will switch to fumarate) and 3 cataplex b's from standard process, with most meals, and a-f betafood for digestion /gallbladder and 3 tmg a few digestive enzymes and some butyrate to keep stomach acidic and soak up some elevated ammnonia,based on oats test, candida issues).. Been doing that for awhile and it was working, don't think it's what's thrown me off, considering most of those pills are natural food sources.. not synthetic.
So much to unravel... appreciate you and/or any other veteran digging in with me. Sorry about your highs and lows, I'm with you on that my friend. I've been feeling so tired only a few hours after waking now. It's frustrating. Adrenals aren't that off, according to blood assessments. Assuming it's just general imbalance which I haven't helped much with the synthetics.


..
 
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Messages
47
Thanks zzz, I'll go back to jarrow, I like them for everything.. but i made the switch because after about 2 weeks on my own protocol , 5000mcg and 1200 mfolate jarrow also, my blood looked real good under the microcope. i had never seen it look so small and robust. no donut holes.. but after the 2nd month on the protocol the blood looked so strange.. all the holes were back and the cells didn't look nearly as healthy, also some coagulation .. I know I made a wrong turn somewhere. Definite setback,
All i can think now is too much b12 and not enough folate.. based on my ratios do you think this is why? Or is it some wildcard, like potassium deficiency i've created? Any other vits or minerals affected by the b12 folate protocol?
I'm so not in the mood to chase my tail again, just to get back to baseline

Yes, i've been on moratorium on EVERYTHING since the rash. But that' won't get me too far as things are not looking good, aside from the rash fading, digestion/bowels are getting sluggish and can tell i'm not really going forward. In fact, will probably continue to fade backward if I continue with a prolonged moratorium - been there before
 
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Phred

Senior Member
Messages
141
As for the brand, as you can see from Freddd's post, Jarrow is actually one of the best - much better than Source Naturals. Some people don't like Jarrow because it takes so long to dissolve. But that's the whole point - the tablets that dissolve faster can't be fully absorbed under the tongue, and so they go into your gut, where they're not absorbed very well at all.

Freddd has changed his mind about Jarrow. About 2 and a half years ago something happened to the formula of Jarrow. Don't know what exactly, but it became drastically less effective. Fred had a horrible crash from it and no longer recommends it. Here is a small quote from him:


Jarrow MeCbl is useless in it's present incarnation in any quantity for our needs. I had a massive setback from it last year and am only now recovering that lost ground 1 mg of Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl is superior to any amount of any other brand so far by my testing.

There was an entire thread about this 2 years ago as others noticed the difference too: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

I just wanted to point this out. :)
 
Messages
47
Freddd has changed his mind about Jarrow. About 2 and a half years ago something happened to the formula of Jarrow. Don't know what exactly, but it became drastically less effective. Fred had a horrible crash from it and no longer recommends it. Here is a small quote from him:




There was an entire thread about this 2 years ago as others noticed the difference too: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

I just wanted to point this out. :)

Wonderful, another layer of confusion. The rabbit hole gets pretty deep and rather quickly :)
 

Phred

Senior Member
Messages
141
I"m glad I could be your inspiration to dig in on the protocol ;)

Also correct me if i'm wrong on the percentages/ratio's. I realize the a12 changes the ratio to more like 50percent of b12's to folate, but I don't even want to factor that in yet since it wasn't what I was megadosing on and it works more on cns.. yes?..

From what I understand adb12 works in the Kreb's cycle so it doesn't work with methylfolate as that's in the methylation/folate cycles.

I wouldn't worry so much about percentages. Fred has said over and over it not about percentages. It's about titrating to effect. You want to get to a point where you no longer have "brightening" as you've maxed out (for you) and no longer show paradoxical deficiency symptoms.
 
Messages
47
From what I understand adb12 works in the Kreb's cycle so it doesn't work with methylfolate as that's in the methylation/folate cycles.

I wouldn't worry so much about percentages. Fred has said over and over it not about percentages. It's about titrating to effect. You want to get to a point where you no longer have "brightening" as you've maxed out (for you) and no longer show paradoxical deficiency symptoms.

ok, Yea, i'm just going to retrace , with the knowledge that i was probably under folated.

Also , didn't add in the potassium.. Which Vit depletes potassium? Is it the b12 or the folate?

Also, some silly questions i can't find answers on.. What is "brightening" if you are referring to my rash, then it sure was a quite vibrant brightening effect;)

Also, is Sam E the same as the adb12? Because based on my Organic Acid Test and imbalances, it kept pointing to supplementing with Sam E, carnitine and b2. Which i've done, and added the acl. I dont have any adb12 though, but would like to try because I'm hearing it's lifting libido, and that seems to be the one elusive thing in my life, that I miss so much. It's my drive to get things done, to work, to live.. all that. Sam E doesn't do anything for my libido unfortunately
 

Phred

Senior Member
Messages
141
Also , didn't add in the potassium.. Which Vit depletes potassium? Is it the b12 or the folate?

Potassium is pretty important I can't stress that one enough. If you have methylation going you'll feel the need for potassium.


Also, some silly questions i can't find answers on.. What is "brightening" if you are referring to my rash, then it sure was a quite vibrant brightening effect;)

Well, your rash is definitely not "brightening." I'd look at the extra ingredients in your supplements to see if there might be something you're allergic to.

I had to look up Fred explain brightening as that is his term. Here is what he had to say: In addition, the B12s start up neurological processes in damaged nerves. At it's simplest, there is an artifact of all sensory things brightening. One is more aware of light, color, hearing, taste, smelling, damaged nerves, pains, tight muscles, everything, as if new all over again and not fatigued into oblivion.

I have to say that is what happened for me. I came out of the zombie like fog I didn't even know I was in. The fog had happened over such a prolonged period of time I didn't realize the changes. It wasn't until I was lifted out that I could look back see the darkness. It was quite a difference.


Also, is Sam E the same as the adb12? Because based on my Organic Acid Test and imbalances, it kept pointing to supplementing with Sam E, carnitine and b2. Which i've done, and added the acl. I dont have any adb12 though, but would like to try because I'm hearing it's lifting libido, and that seems to be the one elusive thing in my life, that I miss so much. It's my drive to get things done, to work, to live.. all that. Sam E doesn't do anything for my libido unfortunately


Sam-e is S-Adenosyl Methionine and Adb12 is Adenosylcobalamin. Two very different things and working in two different areas. Sam-e works on the methylation cycle and Ad12 on the Krebs cycle.
 
Messages
47
Thanks Phred.. appreciate your time.. I'm going to order the ado12 then and just start over on freds protocol, and add things slowly. I had some flashes of fog lifting,libido , life, but it all came crashing down so quick.Even my bowels changed from brown to bright green,

something shifted this last week.. I'm so dead now. I look at all my supplements, protocols, everything and just want go shove them in a cupboard.. Have no solid clue what went wrong and Feels like a year of trial and error has just ended in error. It takes alot of energy and research to embark on the journey. Going to have to try and summon the energy with some hope and faith that I wont make too many wrong turns.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@matters I'm sorry you're feeling so low. You'll find the guide I compiled as pdf in my signature. Not perfect, not definitive, but you might be able to scroll through and find some of your answers there. I'm unable to pick through what you've done and determine the blocks. But this might help you do it for yourself.

ahhh..I've just looked again at your initial question and your genes. Your MAO++ predisposes you to histamine response: rashes and more. I'm linking a few histamine resources you might find helpful.

Also, 2 administrative things: If you put your genetic profile into your signature, then we see it on each of your posts, can refer to it for responses. And, it's really helpful if you break your posts into smaller paragraphs, much easier to comprehend the info. thanks.

http://roosclues.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/overview-of-high-histamine-also-called.html

The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044
 
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