Marshall Protocol

[ukxmrv]

Neither does the Marshell protocol. There is no evidence that Vit D and treating co-infections in the way he does has any curative effect on people with XMRV.

If you have any evidence please post it - otherwise it's just another old, pre-XMRV theory.

 

[V99]

what ukxmrv said.

 

[Frank]

This is old and you can probably find people who tried it via the Forum search function. I remember it as not being very succesfull

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...-Marshall-on-XMRV&highlight=marshall+protocol

 

[goldiland]

Can someone please educate me regarding the significance of Vitamin D levels. My 25-Hydroxy level is low (24 with a reference range of 30-100) and my Calcitriol (1.25) is high (76 with a reference range of 10-75). My basic understanding is that elevated Vitamin D 1.25 levels are consistent with immune dysfunction and those elevated levels downregulate or are a causative factor in the low 25-Xyroxy levels. I think there is varying opinion at this point as to whether supplementing with D-3 is helpful or actually promotes immunosuppression. I'd like to hear what other think.

I understand the Marshall protocol but I will say that my physician (Klimas) thinks it's unscientific and dangerous so definitely not for me. Glad it's helping some, though.

 

[glenp]

Affa

Maybe I didn't word my question right. Would you please tell me what drugs you take and at what dosages?

Thank you
glen

 

[affa]

Yes V99 I did!

If XRMV is underlying, then this retrovirus is very old, because EBV and Cytomegalovirus is even very old, so You can bee wright.
But there are even intracellulra resistent bakteries who attacks the immusystem itself and are clever to handle with our immunsystem, for exampel Stafflyockoker and so on. They can hide within the cells so our system dont notise them and cant even kill them.

So iven if we kan come along to take away the retroviruses, we have all the other resistent bacterials left to deal with, the one which have left the cellwall behind.
May be if we can take care about the RXMV viruses in the biginning stage and not have ended up whith others microbes it can work as the HIV-infektions early stage perhaps? Who Nows!

 

[V99]

John Coffin has suggested that XMRV jumped to humans only in the last 100 years, and that would make it young.

 

[Dainty]

Affa,

This is the third time glenp has respectfully requested you post what drugs and at which dosages you are taking for the Marshall Protocol. Is there a reason you are ignoring her request? I'm sure you can understand how important it is for us to know what the actual treatment is in order to evaluate it.

glenp,

I suspect the reason Affa doesn't want to say is because last I checked only the "first stage" was public knowledge....second and third stage was secretive and you were not permitted to find out exactly which drugs and dosages were involved until after successfully completing the first stage, which could take years. I don't know if that's changed since the last time I looked into it or not. Those who share second or third stage information with others not at that level (i.e. us) could potentially be banned from the MP forum, and since the forum is their source of information they do not want that to happen.

 

[V99]

It's an advert.

 

[pollycbr125]

It's an advert.

I agree Affa has made 10 posts all relating to the Marshall Protocol . It was an odd first post to post anyway , not your normal first time posting . There are hundreds of threads on this board for folk to comment on , says it all really .

Hopefully once the NIH/FDA paper is out and the role of XMRV is finally seen for what it is all the charlatans getting rich quick on the misery of ill folk with their quack theories, expensive potions and training programs will fade away into the background never to be seen or heard again .

Or even better they will all be charged with fraud and have to pay back the millions they have fleeced out of folk :Retro mad: :Retro mad: :Retro mad:

 

[V99]

Or even better they will all be charged with fraud and have to pay back the millions they have fleeced out of folk

Could not agree more

 

[affa]

Hi Glenp!

In Marshall Protocol we use Olmesartan Medoximil and there is other names too for example Benicar.
These medicals is for upregulate the immunsystem, so the body itself can fight the infektions!!

Then We use some antibiotics in very law doses to force the resistent bacterials to get up and die of whithin the cells where they lives and hide for the immunsystem.
The first important antibiotic is Minocyclin Hexal 50mg. in at first 25mg, as increases after about 3 weeks I tooc 4 weeks because I needed a slow and nicely way. Than You Increse that doses in 25mg steps untill You reach 100mg dose.
The immunsupporting Olmesartan I am taking every 6 our which I find best..
Than You use Azitromax, for other eventually microbes like Mycoplasma every 10 days in a very small amount 1/8 dels of tablett on 500.mg this steps is then increasing with 31mg each step until the level of 125mg.
And the last Medical is Dalacin.
It is not a qick fix as You understnd and you do need a docktor hwo can Guide You together with the professionboard.

And its very important to follow the protocoll so exactly that You can, but increase the medicals in respect to Your own body.
You even must do folling up and cheque the konventionel labs aspecially your kidness, liver and so on.

When you day after day kills the microbs, so increase the ammount of toxins, which your liver and kidness need to handle with.
So Your own body is in charge and have the power too do this.
You must even be sure that Your heart are strong and take the own responsibillity together with your Doc.

Iv put in links to find out more qestions about this!

 

[dannybex]

Marshall Protocol: What ex-patients and others are saying...

I don't have the time or energy to get into any arguments over the MP, but I think it's important that anyone considering it should first read what others have gone through -- check out the comments on this site from both ex-patients, and ex-MP volunteers:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/marshall-protocol-and-other-fairy-tales.html

Also, Mark London has written a thorough analysis of the MP here:

http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

 

[Dainty]

I don't have the time or energy to get into any arguments over the MP, but I think it's important that anyone considering it should first read what others have gone through -- check out the comments on this site from both ex-patients, and ex-MP volunteers:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/marshall-protocol-and-other-fairy-tales.html

Also, Mark London has written a thorough analysis of the MP here:

http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm

Thanks, dannybex. For anyone who's wondering whether or not the above links are worth the energy of reading, I'd highly recommend the first and then just reading through the comments. Many with significant experience with the MP share their thoughts on it, and it's very enlightening. There are basically three main takes on the MP and TM (Trevor Marshall):

1. It's complete nonsense and very dangerous. Those who get relief get it from Benicar, which is anti-inflammatory.
2. There might be something to the MP, but the cultishness of it, lack of studies, and TM's resistance to questions makes it difficult for any scientific progress to be made. The "study site" is not interested in failures, which makes it difficult to get an accurate read on what's going on.
3. The MP is a great protocol that can heal autoimmune disorders...other people just aren't disciplined enough to follow through with the instructions until they see improvement.

The vast majority of comments are either in the first catagory or the third.

I have seriously considered the MP twice now: once when I first became very severe (after about 4 years of milder CFS) and then again about a year ago. The first time I was in the third category, even though I never ended up starting it. I avoided vitamin D, which wasn't too hard because any sunlight or daylight already caused me problems. My new doctor was very excited about the MP. Blood tests didn't show the results she expected, and she kept wanting to do them over as I became life-threateningly ill, until finally we decided that I needed my blood and needed to focus on just staying alive for a while. Changed doctors.

During that time I was on the forum I can attest to the cult-like nature of it.

About a year ago I started seriously looking into MP again, deciding that if I did so I would be very cautious and would take what was said on the forum with a few tablespoons of salt. My reasoning was since I cannot tolerate even the smallest amounts of vitamin D (whether supplemented or from food) without irretractable, body-wide pain (very different from my regular pain) that I may as well try an experimental treatment that is for low vitamin D levels. Yes, I "stuck with" attempts at vitamin D supplementation for weaks thinking it was just a detox reaction, but the pain would only continue to worsen. My doctors were confounded because vitamin D generaly relieves pain instead of causing it.

So I figured, my D levels have been extremely low for years and I can't raise them since I can't get any into my system, may as well give this protocol a go. So I spent months researching it, talking about it with my caretaker and naturopath, and having them research it.

In the end I decided that my symptoms were opposite the protocol. VItamin D gave me severe symptoms that did not wax and wane from day to day likea "herx" would. Vitamin D never made me feel better, only worse, contrary to the theory of "you feel better for a little while because..." And finally, low vitamin D just wasn't working for me. It had been 3 years of extremely low levels, and I was still as ill as ever. TIme to try something different.

So I went the opposite direction and decided I was willing to do whatever it took to get D back into my system. My naturopath agreed that trying vitamin D shots was an excellent option since oral vitamin D was intolerable, and she assured me that we would take necessary steps to make sure my pain didn't become overwhelming. It was all set to go until I read about a cod liver oil that was raw, fermented, and packaged in glass. I figured I'd try that first, just to see. I did get the characteristic pain for a few weeks, but it was not as bad as before and then it slowly went away.

Have I had drastic improvement? No. There may be some improvement on my ability to tolerate daylight (NOT direct sunlight) though since that's been cyclical over the past few years there's no way to tell. What I do know is that vitamin D is necessary for dental health (in one study vitamin D supplementation alone reversed many children's tooth decay) and since my teeth are full of cavities that's my focus right now.

So that's my story as it relates to the MP. I urge anyone considering it to make sure they do a lot of research outside of the two MP sites, and if they decide to move forward to do so cautiously, keeping your head about you and making sure that you keep doing what you think is best for your health without being pressured in to anything. All symptoms are explained away as herxing, and many people have ended up hospitalized....some have died. So it's imperative that you have enough layman medical knowledge to know when a symptoms is concerning enough to stop treatment or to seek answers elsewhere.

Last I heard ou are not permitted to take any other supplements or medications while on the MP. That alone makes it impossible for most of us.

 

[judderwocky]

Neither does the Marshell protocol. There is no evidence that Vit D and treating co-infections in the way he does has any curative effect on people with XMRV.

If you have any evidence please post it - otherwise it's just another old, pre-XMRV theory.

its not even a theory. its benign AT BEST and dangerous at worst.

For a list of studies showing the BENEFITS of Vitamin d.....

you could visit this website... all the studies are listed by disease.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/

studies on

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/research.shtml

(although i still can't find out why its in shtml format.... weirdos.)

personally i take about 4k iu a day. and i love it. i'm not offering advice or saying anybody else should do it ... just pointing out that my case study of n=1 (lul) has made me a lot happier and healthier..

if you are scared about evil bacteria... try some of the good one's

Kefir is where its at.

 

[garcia]

its not even a theory. its benign AT BEST and dangerous at worst.

For a list of studies showing the BENEFITS of Vitamin d.....

you could visit this website... all the studies are listed by disease.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/

studies on

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/research.shtml

(although i still can't find out why its in shtml format.... weirdos.)

personally i take about 4k iu a day. and i love it. i'm not offering advice or saying anybody else should do it ... just pointing out that my case study of n=1 (lul) has made me a lot happier and healthier..

if you are scared about evil bacteria... try some of the good one's

Kefir is where its at.

Great post! Nothing much to add.

 

[Fejal]

Arguments for Why the Marshall Protocol Doesn't Work in it's Present State

After six months interacting with them I agree with Dainty and fall into the second category- it is run like a cult. I completed six months of the official Marshall Protocol but then modified it due to the problems listed below and because when I added specific supplements to block more pathways my cycle duration decreased by half and I could dose daily instead of every other day; cutting my treatment time by half. I don't believe that it works in its current state for three reasons. First, if you visit their forum at www.marshallprotocol.com and look at the long term patients a large number of them are still sick after three years of bacteriostatic treatment. If the protocol worked this should not happen.

Second, if you read Faherty's 2008 "Staying Alive" research article page 175 table 1 shows that Dr. Marshall's method, which originated in 2003 before this newer information was available, failed to address all the immunological apoptotic pathways that L-form bacteria block namely PI3/AkT, NF-kB, and Caspase-3. The only one he addresses is the 25D receptor with benecar which curiously isn't listed. This allows immunity to continue to be low and slows the treatment response. When all the pathways are addressed with supplements response speeds double. When I brought this to his attention he refused to modify his treatment and banned me from his support forum because I disclosed these problems to the others there and he was afraid that they would stop following his recommendations.

Third, the protocol is pro-inflamatory because it is low omega-3 fatty acid (which are banned as supplements in any form). This raises pain levels which they treat with unnecessary four hour Benecar dosing. This makes no sense because flax oil and chia seed supplement has no vitamin D but ample omega 3.

Dr. Marshall's stance on supplements makes no sense. He bans all of them categorically rather than testing them to assess the duration of any immune surpressing effects. For example, tumeric is a useful supplment which has a surpressing effect that lasts only one hour so if it is taken with the minocycline dose mino's suppression overlaps the tumeric and it can be used without losing any bacterial killing time.

However, the theory that cell wall deficient bacteria are chronically infecting cells that were predisposed to infection due to lowered immunity from excess vitamin D and viral infection is still one that deserves research. Dr. Marshall's observations regarding a therapeutic probe of vitamin D avoidance, high levels of vitamin 1,25D despite low intake, and cyclic aggravation of immunopathology symptoms (formerly termed herx reactions) following bacteriostatic drugs strongly suggests that this infection is occurring. I am on this protocol and have measured consistant increases in hypothermic body temperature from 96.5F to 98F within ten minutes of taking benecar. This effect is profound. I know of no other theory that can explain the pattern.

I think the next step is to modify the protocol to block every pathway by reversing their ban on standardized herbal supplements and using precise dosing. I am currently doing this and have been able to double the treatment cycling and dosing speed. I expect to know if it works in two months when I complete dosing with minocycline, zithromax and clindamyacin.

Also for Dainty, the waxing and waning of symptoms is only when you are on the medication. Off of it your immune system is too suppressed for them to appear. Concerning the need for vitamin D (which really is a secosteroid and not an essential vitamin) you don't need it for strong bones because the body makes it regardless of sunlight exposure. I had my dentist compare my dental xrays after 1 year of light avoidance and there was no bone loss. If you have lost bone you probably need to address it dietarily with a good multimineral supplement (I recommend Country Life Total Mins Iron Free), green leafy vegetables and avoiding things that leach calcium from bones (diet soda, mega protein overdoses, etc).

 

[hoMEy]

it was the same with nystatin - marked improvement for some, till they stopped taking it then fell back...improvement doesn't necessarily mean a thing, could be that you're worse (more acidic) but microbe free'ish...till you stop taking...i'm more active when i'm acidic as i alkalise i fatigue and fog as my body becomes aware of the mess it's in rather than sweeping it under the carpet...

a.b.'s promote acidity, all chronic illnesses display acidity...they're just turning themselves into one big acid stomach...praps less viruses, microbes etc, but now your tissues are acid and you have leaky gut...there was a "5%" "cure" trial...or 1 person out of 20...done by no less than monsanto?! trustworthy bunch...trials prove nowt anyway as everyone should know...10 trials till you get the reuslt you need and then miss out the uncomfortable facts and manipulate the rest...

no-one has or ever will be """cured""" by these treatments...."i'm still improving" - after 3 years it wears thin...

anti-biotics cause tissue and liver damage, believe they even even warn about liver failure on th mp, or they used to. you can try n mop up this chemical warfare but then the drugs would not have their """desired""" affect.

like gupta and the like who claim to understand this illness so well yet have very poor results??? why? because theydon't understand, but making/bamboozling folk into thinking it does is either necessary for it to work even in it's limited capacity (gupta) or to sell it (marshall or dr.wright in the uk). get so many facts n stats yet poor overall results. if it's understood it would have at very least a higher success rate.

most allergies are proteins- pollen, milk/dairy, eggs, gluten; even microbes are meat and hence a protein...(so is your body!). as you may or may not know, protein is digested in an acidic enviroment - starches by alkaline first. taking anti-biotics does makes your body and tissues acidic (you're like one big "acid digesting protein" stomach)...

so you may have less microbes and many less allergens circulating your system and stressing it and maybe even digesting more food cos you're like a stomach (not literally, excuse wording) and so feel better in some ways but this is at the actual expense of real improvement, which is marked by alkalising and improvement of intestinal integrity which is totally dependant on this.

you can't go from the acid enviroment and leaky gut caused by anti-biotics all of a sudden to a healed gut wall/mucous membranel overnight once you stop the antibiotics...physical impossibility...takes weeks/months to heal the gut and in the meantime all foods/whole proteins would again enter the system undigested causing the array of probs that they do + now immunity weakened > viruses etc etc....

i'm more active when acidic but always go through much more fatigue whilst healing...like having longterm flu that takes months instead days to get over.

another important point is that the cells of your body are not unlike microbes themselves, which is why tissue damage including leaky gut etc is caused by antibiotics...

also weight gain...which i've even noted some mention on these treatments, whilst they ate less as they lost their appetite; a usual sign of worsening noted by many, though not all might experience this. the weight gain is caused by your body surrounding harmfull chemicals (anti-biotics, deodorants, undigested food (which is toxic) etc etc) with water and shunting them to the tissues in a last ditch attempt to protect the body from them.

leon chaitow and gill jacobs noted inb their books on cfs/m.e. candida etc how all the patients on the antibitics etc who improved became addicted to them and worsened when they stopped and so advised against them...i wish all this did work, really i do but your apparent improvements are only that and actually hide more damage.

there is nothing that can kill unwanted microbes, heal the gut wall etc etc better than the body, if it's encouraged and allowed to do it's job. so many ideas on what can help and if not done carefully does nowt but to crowd the body with more "stuff" it can't deal with. for me it's more about what you don't do and what you avoid and allowing the body's innate ability to heal, function freely. antibiotics presume to know better than nature (not supporting it), like pesticides in the fields - the fields being the tissues of the earth and like folks who do mp, devoid of even benefical microbes...

in the uk we have dr. wright and if you look on foggy friends there's a thread called "i've been cured" and it's the same cultish kind of thing as mentioned here about the mp. folks forever still getting better and the odd "cure" claim from folk no-ones ever met, even mods saying it cures...sadness...

that's why the xmrv thing makes little difference in my opinion...more drugs that have negative knock on affects elsewhere in the body...could be good as a dignosis though...

i suppose at least these treatments recognise the fungal/micrbial/viral aspects of m.e./cfs, just a shame they make it possibly worse, once stopped..

 

[Fejal]

Homey I don't think I am "addicted" to increasing levels of antibiotics because they do show the 3-5 day wax and wane cycle of raising body temperature to 99F and this stops when you stop taking them. If I didn't have a chronic L form infection there would be no reason for the cyclic low grade fever when exposed to small, increasing doses of zithromax and minocycline.

My body is not over acidic. It regulates its acid base balance just fine but I believe that the modern quick access to antacids has created a lack of negative feedback at the kidney which reduces its ability to regulate acidity and that causes the over acid symptoms. Fixing this takes a few days and it is good not to coddle it by using vegetable powders or antacids to get your kidneys used to dealing with higher levels of proteins and acids. I believe that most of what is diagnosed as over acidity is actually a tolerance of the kidney due to a lack of acid stimulation. There is a big market out there for pH strips and veggie powders when the problem is just unexercised kidneys. After the kidneys can start regulating pH then of course you would want to raise the amount of vegetables and limit grains to lower pH. But as a sick patient I need a lot of animal protein because it is high in cysteine (which raises my sensory specific appetite for it). Luckily once the kidneys are sufficiently stimulated they have no problem keeping a good control over acid base balance. Try this to improve function. For a few days challenge your kidneys by eliminating acid treaments and eating more acid foods so that you have mild acid symptoms (heartburn, etc). Drink water to keep it manageable. Let your kidneys adapt then restore more alkaline foods after the acid symptoms stop.

 

[hoMEy]

yeah they say in chinese medicine that the kidneys control the acid/alkaline balance of the body and i would agree. whether folk with a chronic longterm health condition like m.e. have fully functioning kidneys is something i would strongly question and hence their ability to regulate body ph. i did not say "addicted to increasing levels of antibiotics"...to clarify, some folk on anti-biotic treatment experience improvement in symptons (a false improvement in my view) and hence giving up would mean they revert back to their previous state of health (feeling worse but better in my view as they are less toxic) and this is unacceptable to them, so they are "addicted" in the sense, not physically, but mentally as they believe they are improving or don't want to go back to where they were.

i've heard all the arguments about how with less microbial load the body would then be able to deal with itself etc, but this just doesn't seem to happen does it...to re-iterate, if it's understood so well, with facts, stats and apparent understanding, why the zero success rate? acidosis and chronic ill health are synonomous with each other. i don't see how you can have one part of your body (kidneys) or more, functioning perfectly, whilst the rest is on it's knees. if you're kidneys are operating healthily then you would be recovered in my opinion...you cannot seperate the part from the whole, they are one...of course this is what conventional medicine always does, to it's detriment unfortunately..

i wish you well with your choice of treatment and hope you recognise when/if it hasn't worked and move on...of course there will be zealouts who promote mp unfortunately and the belief or hope in these treatments will go on...though i sense the tide turning. it seems from this thread that many are wise to the cultish nature of mp and its actual lack of success...amazing how mp apparently understands so much yet delivers so little, the dichotomy is striking to some!

if you scroll down you'll see foods that promote acidity...also lists anti-biotics...they couldn't do this if your kidney theory was right...

having visited the mp site, i note that they also advise the low g.i. diet and with good reason...sugars.starches ferment and anything that ferments, degrades to an acid, causing acidosis...so at least it appears that they are aware of the acidity problem...why advise this diet for it's alkalising benefits if your kidneys can sort this problem out on their own...?