Magnesium - what's best kind to take

[Gondwanaland]

Serum Mg levels in my case never showed deficiency. RBC lab tests aren't available to me. However, in whole blood lab tests (serum and blood cells combined) repeatedly showed severe deficiency (since serum itself is sufficient, suspect even more severe deficiency in RBCs).

I found RBC test useless. My deficiency was observed in urine: very low below range. I never retested it, but after about 4-5 weeks of supplementation I didn't feel any more need for it. I suppose you looked into a deficiency in another vitamin preventing you to hold/utilize magnesium... B1, B2, B6, vit D...

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I wished this to be true. However, I really need at least 2 g of elemental Mg each day (along with equal amounts of Na and K) to avoid painful muscle cramps. At that level every Mg compound softens stuhl. Really no myth about that.

Serum Mg levels in my case never showed deficiency. RBC lab tests aren't available to me. However, in whole blood lab tests (serum and blood cells combined) repeatedly showed severe deficiency (since serum itself is sufficient, suspect even more severe deficiency in RBCs). Still, haven't given up the hope to someday overcome it with persistence ..and spectacular transit times.

Sorry just to be clear ....I don't think that magnesium softening stool is a myth....just that you don't need to use this as an indicator of good absorption. Little and often seems to be better logically than a load in big slugs. Not always practical though.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

In what form comes magnesium from food? I doubt it is aminoacid or organic chelated.

I think it varies a bit. Leafy greens will have a lot of magnesium bound up with chlorophyll, not sure with seeds though?

 

[pamojja]

I suppose you looked into a deficiency in another vitamin preventing you to hold/utilize magnesium... B1, B2, B6, vit D...

25(OH)D has been at about 64 ng/ml, B6 160 µg/L (16.8 - 45 range) - remains only B1 and B2 to look further into. Though I did get about 260 mg B1 (half of it benfo) and 100 mg B2 (third R-5'-P) per day in avg. from supplements during the last 9 years.

Sorry just to be clear ....I don't think that magnesium softening stool is a myth....just that you need to use this as an indicator of good absorption. Little and often seems to be better logically than a load in big slugs. Not always practical though.

Wasn't aware of this, always thought it logic that the more diarrhea the less would be absorbed. I do take Mg throughout the day with and without food, and in my drinking water bottle too.

 

[Gondwanaland]

25(OH)D has been at about 64 ng/ml,

Are you properly converting it to the active 1,25 D ? This is also testable. Boron is needed to activate vit D.

 

[pamojja]

Are you properly converting it to the active 1,25 D ? This is also testable. Boron is needed to activate vit D.

Learned on PR that my severe Mg deficiency most probably started due to Refeeding syndrome, as posted here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/865688/. Have just quit a part-time job because of too much PEM, so at the moment can't afford any specialty tests. With in avg. 6 mg/d of Boron should be all right in that regard. Anyway, now rather think the D3 increased Mg needs, and therefore caused a initially not symptomatic deficiency to become fully so. As soon as I get hands on some spare money will invest in bulk powder B1 and B2 to test that possibility.

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

When I made a post a few days ago regarding the recommendations of the late Dr. Herbert Mansmann, former director of the Magnesium Research Laboratory at Jefferson Medical College, Thomas Jefferson University, I shortened the article since it was fairly long. He was a diabetic with a congenital magnesium deficiency and severe peripheral neuropathy which he was able to reverse with a year of using oral magnesium preparations at very high doses.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ts-best-kind-to-take.52208/page-2#post-864902

Here is his original article:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071012...rchlab.com:80/Dosing-with-Mg-Suppl-6-3-04.htm

Here is one part I left out when he was talking about Mg Oxide (his bolding, not mine):

Start With This salt, once on 3-4 tablets of Blaine MagO 400 mg, every 4-6 hours, per day or develops diarrhea, one should then add other salts beginning with Mag-Tab SR and then Maginex.

It is obvious from the above list that Mg oxide (MgO) is the workhorse because it contains the highest concentration of Mg. Actually 60.3% of the MgO salt is elemental Mg, the part that counts. That is its major advantage, but it might be too much for some patients. A disadvantage is that it takes about 2 hours for any to be found in the urine. This is the only sign of absorption of Mg for those with normal sMg levels, which is also the amount of time it takes to see any clinical effectiveness to be seen. The MgO peak effect is in 4 hours, and gradually decreases in a few hours. Even with very high doses the kidneys will only maintain your sMg levels in the normal range, since Mg is stored in the bones not the serum.. If one's sMg is below normal, the sMg level will ultimately increase to the normal range. Thus between 0 and 2 hours, and between 4 and 8 hours the patient may need a higher dose to prevent symptoms of MgD.

 

[Critterina]

In what form comes magnesium from food? I doubt it is aminoacid or organic chelated.

Why would you doubt that? I would think plants and animals use magnesium like we do, as co-factors in enzymes and vitamins. Anyway, I don't know the answer, but I typed in the question to my browser. What I found was fascinating, even if it didn't contain the answer. It was a NIH (United States Department of Health and Human Services, National Institutes of Health) website. A portion of it said:

Dietary supplements
Magnesium supplements are available in a variety of forms, including magnesium oxide, citrate, and chloride [2,3]. The Supplement Facts panel on a dietary supplement label declares the amount of elemental magnesium in the product, not the weight of the entire magnesium-containing compound.

Absorption of magnesium from different kinds of magnesium supplements varies. Forms of magnesium that dissolve well in liquid are more completely absorbed in the gut than less soluble forms [2,11]. Small studies have found that magnesium in the aspartate, citrate, lactate, and chloride forms is absorbed more completely and is more bioavailable than magnesium oxide and magnesium sulfate [11-15]. One study found that very high doses of zinc from supplements (142 mg/day) can interfere with magnesium absorption and disrupt the magnesium balance in the body [16].

The link with more (also fascinating) info is here. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/

 

[Critterina]

I quoted a couple of postings back on this thread some basic chemistry on absorption.

For me there is no logic to the argument that magnesium oxide absorbs any different to any other form of magnesium once its disassociated into magnesium ions. So the difference in forms has more to do with its solubility and reaction to HCl (since everything will be disassociated in the stomach and small intestine). THe difference between forms is very slight from a solubility point of view.

Effective absorption appears to be more about supply and demand which appears to be different for all of us and managed by our bodies. Its about maintaining a suitable supply gradient to do this....and this will be different for all of us. You might as well use the cheapest form available to do this. The body can retrieve magnesium via the kidneys so again we go back to supply and demand within the body rather than trying to influence it via different forms taken orally since within 20 minutes or so they will all be magnesium ions.

Taking magnesium to loosen stools appears to be a different subject to managing effective therapeutic absorption. I suspect that the loose stool reaction is a myth perpetuated as a sales technique to propagate the idea that the supplement is "doing some good". We all like to see "a result" for our money and its difficult to sell expensive supplements if you have no proof that its "working". That isn't to say that if it works to get things moving its not worth doing...but conflating this with maximizing absorption of magnesium ions appears to be quite gross misinformation. I suspect that if you've taken any magnesium form to diarrhea you have probably overdone it by an extremely long way. For the supplement supplier though they sell a shed load more if they make you take more than you need (i.e. more supply than demand can manage)

I go from total agreement with you, to partial, to none in your three paragraphs.
Paragraph 1: You are right about solubility. The scientists would agree with you, that it needs to dissolve before it's available for use. See my recent post with a link to the NIH website.
Paragraph 2: I'm with you up to "they will all be magnesium ions". Nope, the ones that don't dissolve won't be, and so they are not available. Better explained on the NIH website via link above.
Paragraph 3: Mg IS used for the laxative effect. So, from the NIH website:

Medicines
Magnesium is a primary ingredient in some laxatives [17]. Phillips’ Milk of Magnesia®, for example, provides 500 mg elemental magnesium (as magnesium hydroxide) per tablespoon; the directions advise taking up to 4 tablespoons/day for adolescents and adults [18]. (Although such a dose of magnesium is well above the safe upper level, some of the magnesium is not absorbed because of the medication’s laxative effect.) Magnesium is also included in some remedies for heartburn and upset stomach due to acid indigestion [17]. Extra-strength Rolaids®, for example, provides 55 mg elemental magnesium (as magnesium hydroxide) per tablet [19], although Tums® is magnesium free [20].

 

[keenly]

Injections. Chloride.

 

[renski]

my doc said if you're low in B3 (high kynueric acid or quinnolic acid) then magnesium malate could use up your B3 in having to break down the malic acid, citrate forms are hard on the gut.. magnesium glycinate seems to be the safest form

 

[Learner1]

my doc said if you're low in B3 (high kynueric acid or quinnolic acid)

I believe these are markers of low B6 status. B6 can convert to B3 as needed.

 

[renski]

I believe these are markers of low B6 status. B6 can convert to B3 as needed.

Yeah which implies B3 deficiency, quinnolic acid is definitely B3 issues

 

[Learner1]

 

[Learner1]

B3 can reverse methylation, domething to be cautious about.

B6 is used in dozens of important processes. Unless you have a broken enzyme, perhaps taking P5P and letting it convert may be better. Or simply taking NMN or NAD+ if you are looking at ATP production.

 

[renski]

They recommend B3 instead of B6 because B6 can increase quinnolic acid (if you already have high quinnolic acid). Where as B3 can lower quinnolic acid.. it's all a work around until gut issues are addressed

 

[Learner1]

It says B6 insufficiency would increase urinary quinolone levels.

In addition to a loss of niacin synthesis, when vitamin B6 is deficient and the tryptophan pathway is disturbed, the incomplete degradation of tryptophan produces several metabolites that are neurotoxic, including one called quinolinic acid.

Quinolinic acid is a potent and self-perpetuating neurotoxin when unopposed in the brain. It generates ROS (reactive oxygen species indicative of mitochondrial oxidative stress and damage) and over-activates NMDA glutamate receptors (the brain’s primary excitatory neurotransmitter) to the point of apoptosis (cell death), all the while inhibiting brain astrocytes’ ability to clean up the excess glutamate. Once that cycle becomes initiated, quinolinic acid potentiates its own release and that of other neurotoxins, ensuring continued brain inflammation and damage.

With the appropriate vitamin B6, quinolinic acid is not the final product of tryptophan catabolism, NAD+ or niacin is, and any damage initiated by quinolinic acid as a natural by-product within this pathway is offset by two neuroprotective factors, kynurenine and picolinic acid. Vitamin B6 is critical for the kynurenine aminotransferase and kynurinase enzymes; enzymes that lead to neuroprotective compounds, kynurenine or picolinic acid. Kynurenine blocks the cytotoxic effects of quinolinic acid by blocking the NMDA receptor, making it unavailable to quinolinic acid, while picolinic acid is the primary metal chelator (remover) in the brain (likely critically important in post vaccine reactions). In other words, vitamin B6 controls the balance between inflammation and anti-inflammation within the brain and the body.

From: http://www.hormonesmatter.com/reducing-brain-inflammation-vitamin-b6/

 

[Critterina]

Here's my put on the subject:

1. Magnesium needs to be dissolved AND absorbed. Once it's dissolved, what it used to be with no longer plays a role in absorption.

2. Which magnesium you choose might be guided by your other nutritional needs. For example, your NutrEval says you need glycine. Then Mg glycinate might be your best choice. You need to calculate whether you get enough glycine from the supplement when you take enough to meet your Mg needs, of course. If not, you'll need more.