Magnesium deficiënt but can't tolerate Magnesium.

[Chasinghope]

Hi,

I have a problem that I can't seem to figure out. I have magnesium deficiency (took a RBC test a month ago) and I'm trying to get my levels up but any type or dose of Magnesium that I take is making me feel worse.

(Long story, so TLDR at the end)
It started with me depleting my minerals with doing too much coffee enemas (long story) and the first symptoms where low potassium ( dizzyness, extreme thirst, blurred vision, dry eyes and mouth etc) and some "htma (hair trace mineral analyses) folks" on Facebook and the practitioner that I had, told me to stop taking Magnesium as they claimed Magnesium was lowering my potassium (which is far from true) so I stopped. I started to have eye twitches a couple of days after I stopped my Magnesium ( I took 500mg of Algea based Magnesium for 5 years and never had a problem with it.) I didn't know that was a sighn of low Magnesium but after 2 weeks I did some more research and it said the twitching could be Magnesium deficiency and that Magnesium is NEEDED for the uptake of Potassium so I started a Magnesium chloride spray because one of the low Potassium symptoms with me is IBS problems. I took 20 sprays 2 times a day or so, (10 to 20 sprays is 350 mg) and after half a week my twitching stopped.

It was around that time that I also kept feeling worse and worse again, I felt extremely exhausted and my sleep was getting worse, I kept taking the spray and after a while also the algea supplements again. I stopped the spray again because I felt too exhausted to spray 2 times a day and kept taking the algea based Magnesium, thats when the low Magnesium symptoms came back but this time my whole body was twitching and cramping up.

I found a podcast from Dr Carolyn Dean and started to take her ReMag ( a ionized Magnesium chloride and builded it up to 750mg. After 1 week on the dose I got the RBC test and it was too low, only after 10 days the twitching and cramping got a bit less but they are still there. I am on 750mg for about 6 weeks now, but I'm trying different doses and also different kinds of Magnesium in the last week.

3 days ago I took 300mg ReMag, slept a bit better but felt like I had a hangover, 2 days ago I took 150mg sleep was the same but coudn't sleep during the day which I really need and felt more nervous energy, thats also what I feel when I stop Magnesium.. yesterday took 400mg ReMag during the day and 100mg glycinate before bed and didn't fall asleep until 3 hours later, had a couple of hours very light sleep and today feel extremely poorly.

There are some improvements though:
I feel my Potassium, even though I feel its still too low, is not getting lower. I also feel like the dizzyness and blurred vision is improved and a few weeks ago my appitite was improving again ( it's getting worse again sinds lowering the dose last few days) Also my pms was less. So there are some improvements.

On the other hand, I feel my sleep is getting really bad, and the more Magnesium I take, the worse my sleep gets. I feel my adrenals are crashing again as well, the exhaustion is out of this world, my ears are ringing more loudly than ever and I'm getting really depressed. A few weeks ago I also startes to feel more muscle weakness and pain, but this is stable now as well (not getting worse.)

I also tried Magnesium glycinate, but it all has the same effect on me. It just makes me crash and the longer I take it the more I crash. But the lower I go the more Magnesium deficiency symptoms I get.

I think it's because building up Magnesium costs a lot of energy and when someone has adrenal fatigue or cfs etc. It can make the condition worse.

This is what Dr Dean says that I think is going on:
"You can also feel worse on magnesium if you take too much, too soon. This usually happens if you have (adrenal) fatigue and weakness from magnesium deficiency. Anyone in this category should start very slowly on any new supplement or drug. If you take a high dose of magnesium right from the start it’s like using muscles that powered a bicycle and expect them to power a jet. Your body might just be so weak that revving up 800 enzyme systems all at once makes you feel jangled and even anxious or depressed because you don’t know what’s going on. Please try to understand that this may actually mean that you really do need more magnesium. Start with one quarter of the recommended dose of magnesium and work up as your body adapts."

So I feel stuck right now, I'm scared going too low or too high.

TLDR:
Can't seem to handle Magnesium, it makes me feel extremely exhausted and my insomnia gets worse when I take more Magnesium but with less Magnesium I get the symptoms back. I even get low Magnesium symptoms back when I take 500mg, but maybe that kind wasn't right for me.
I think it's because it seems that building Magnesium back up takes a lot of energy and people who are fatigued and don't have energy can get worse. So I feel really stuck right now, I am trying to fix my Magnesium with differend doses and kinds of Magnesium for 4 months now and I am feeling getting worse every day.

Sorry for the long post, its a bit all over the, place I know..
I am just REALLY confused at what to do with all these conflicting symptoms going on and I'm starting to feel really desperate as well. If someone could give me some advice or insights on this that would be great!

 

[Judee]

I wonder if you are low in boron, phosphorus or some other mineral at the same time. (I know you mention potassium as well.)

A lot of minerals (including those ones) make my body temp drop after I take them. I get really cold in the same way when I'm going into a PEM crash.

I'm not sure if it's from a drop in blood pressure but I would suspect it is. If you have any OI (orthostatic intolerance) perhaps that is why it is affecting you so.

I had a spike (a good thing) in my body battery reading on my watch one evening a week or so ago when I added sea salt and borox to a soak. (My reason for trying this was that sea salt is suppose to have a lot of minerals and boron is supposed to help them absorb better.)

I didn't add a lot, maybe just 2-4 tablespoons of each but that reading on my watch went steadily up all that evening and while I slept as well.

I haven't been able to get it to do that again but I thought I'd mention it as an idea.

The other thing is that anytime I have a hard time taking a supplement, I will look for foods that have that nutrient and start trying to get it from those instead at least for a while.

For instance, molasses and liver for iron. Liver is also high in other nutrients. Salmon with the bones for minerals. Be careful of nuts and seeds for your IBS. The seeds especially will flair my IBS quickly. Chocolate can also flair IBS in some but it is supposed to be high in Magnesium, I think.

One of our members has a website where he talks about microbiome changes and CFS. He's had remission about 4x and one of the many things he recommends is chocolate: https://cfsremission.com/2014/03/19/bifidobacterium-chocolate-and-cfs/
https://cfsremission.com/2012/11/25/honestly-chocolate/

I just thought of another supplement that I take that helps IBS but also has calcium and magnesium and that I tolerate well: Mycopryl.

It is a caprylic acid supplement. It doesn't have huge amounts of those nutrients but you might still feel a difference, however, I never take 6 pills as the bottle shows. I only take one because as you're figuring out PwME (people with ME) are super sensitive to things.

I do suspect too that if we have pathogens they will consume the nutrients we are taking in. Since I have been taking things to kill pathogens, my hair has become thicker than I think it ever has been.

That might be another reason why we sometimes feel worse when we take these things. Maybe we are fertilizing the bad guys.

Anyway, Sorry about the long post. I hope you can find something (here or in another person's post) that will help.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

and some "htma (hair trace mineral analyses) folks" on Facebook and the practitioner that I had, told me to stop taking Magnesium as they claimed Magnesium was lowering my potassium (which is far from true)

People who hand out horse-shit advice like that (and sadly, there's a lot of the .... trust but verify) piss me off so badly that I start spluttering, and Im not sure but I think that smoke actually starts coming out of my ears ....

And there's absolutely NOOOOO excuse for the practitioner who mis-advised you so profoundly.

They all think that they're nutritionists or licensed dieticians, whereas their grasp of what does what and to which and why is so far off the mark that, if it werent that they were playing, recklessly and casually with someone else's life and well being, it would be humorous, like listening to Lady DeBurgh (sp ?? ... too tired to check) in Austen's Pride and Prejudice ....

Magnesium CAN lower potassium, just as potassium can lower magnesium, and both can lower zinc. They all compete for the same sites for absorption, but this generally only happens at high doses.

The coffee enemas were a large part of the problem. Altho coffee wont directly deplete magnesium, heavy coffee drinkers who flood their system and intestines with it are interfering with its absorption in a serious way. How much worse when the intestines are being directly flooded with first-pass coffee?

I think, and keep in mind that I'm absolutely NOT a medical professional of any sort, but it seems from what you've posted that you're severely magnesium deficient.

Do you take Vit D3? Vit D needs a lot of magnesium for its absorption and utilization, and it sucks it up like a Hoover vacuum on crack.

Sorry for the long post, its a bit all over the, place I know..

ot at all .... you handled a great deal of complex info in a concise way, and I had no trouble following it. I just had to go slow, but that's on me and my brain function today, not on your post.

I am just REALLY confused at what to do with all these conflicting symptoms going on and I'm starting to feel really desperate as well. If someone could give me some advice or insights on this that would be great!

I'm at a loss. Magnesium was a very large part of what brought me back from semi-comatose and bedbound for over five years, to where I am now.

Here's what I used and how I used it, in case it can be of any help. I used mag glycinate, which you emntioned wasn't working well for you right now. But after much experimentation with it, I developed a dosing amount and schedule that did seem to work, only very slowly.

I took 50 mg of Mag Gly with about 250 mgs of Vit C every 45 to 60 minutes, slowing it down to every 60-120 minutes when I felt that I was taking too much, but not stopping it. Some days I was taking as much as 2000 mgs of mag gly and 5000 mgs of Vit C.

At some point, I added in small amounts of melatonin, because of its effect on neuro transmiters and endocrine function. My issues were somewhat different from yours, altho some were the same. Extreme exhaustion, inability to sleep or to stay alseep for more than a couple of hours if I could get to sleep, increasing depression, and on-going severe anxiety and panic from the start.

It took probably 2-3 weeks befor I senses any positie change, ad it was tiny. But I kept up with that protool, and it became obvious after a certain point that it was working extremely well for me.

I'm running o fumes and need to take a break. I'll be back later or early tomorrow with some more thoughts on this.

I'm REALLY glad you found us !!!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Anyway, Sorry about the long post. I hope you can find something (here or in another person's post) that will help.

XLNT post @Judee ... full of really solid information. You're far more encyclopaedic than you know !!!

I think that given what @Chasinghope has gone thru with bad advice and questionable protocols like coffee enemas, her entire electrolyte system is pushed so far out of whack that her basic functioning is severely impaired. That's not the only issue, but it may be the key to moving improvement up to the next level, the 5 or 10% improvement that opens the door to the rest.

I dont think I can make any sense right now. I'm really struggling. But I'll be back ....

 

[Crux]

Magnesium antagonizes calcium.

Many of these symptoms, twitches, insomnia, dizziness, fatigue, and more can be from calcium deficiency.

It may not show up in a serum test.

 

[lenora]

Yes, it's important to keep as much of a balance as possible. I've had a number of flares and then remissions (not cured, by any means, but definitely a large improvement).

If you can't tolerate mg. by mouth, why not try an epsom salt bath (if you can, of course). Mg. is absorbed through the skin and it's also helpful for sleep. I would try this after approx. 2 days of not taking any mg.

I'm not a physcian, so certainly can't claim to have the answer. However, I'm a long term patient....and epsom baths have helped in the past. For things like muscle spasms, which are very painful, talk to your doctor about a prescription for something like Pramiipexole 0.25 mg. Try l/2 tablet at first. The combo will usually help me.

I agree with Judee.....you may also need calcium and other balancing. A lot of these can be obtained via food. Potassium is also important.....it takes a lot of reading and personal "playing" to find the right combos, which frequently change with our bodies.

You sound very weak, so you may not be able to have a bath. (Knee osteoarthritis prevents me from doing so now, but I certainly did before). If you can't bathe use washcloths soaked in epsom salts over many parts of your body. Generally warm/hot ones feel best. Give yourself a break from the worry of it all for a time....if possible. Definitely call your doctor as the Pramipexole will help and doesn't have to be taken all of the time. No, I've never become addicted to it at all. Feel better. Yours, Lenora.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Magnesium antagonizes calcium.

It's almost totally the opposite.

Magnesium is actually critical for calcium levels. Magnesium is required for the production and release of parathyroid hormone, which increases blood calcium levels when they're low. When magnesium is too low, blood calcium levels are greatly reduced due to insufficient parathyroid hormone.

While magnesium, calcium, and zinc all compete for the same sites for absorption, 'antagonism' only takes place at relatively high doses.

 

[Crux]

It's almost totally the opposite.

Not for me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK549811/

"Magnesium works as a physiologic calcium blocker. "

I may be a paradoxical case, but I can not tolerate much magnesium. It will give me symptoms of low calcium.
Last time I tried 240 mg. , I had joint pain, sharp flank pain (kidney), paresthesia, insomnia, and a shingles outbreak.

Magnesium does bind phosphorus, which is good, seeing that most mammals are over consuming it now.
Magnesium can also inhibit PTH.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I may be a paradoxical case, but I can not tolerate much magnesium.

With this sly little blackjack of an illness, we're all paradoxical cases

Magnesium can also inhibit PTH.

As I said in my post, without magnesium, there is virtually no PTH, and calcium can't be effectively utilized ....

"Magnesium works as a physiologic calcium blocker. "

Not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean something beyond the natural competition between calcium and magnesium? 'Physiologic' is a pretty broad term ....

 

[Crux]

As I said in my post, without magnesium, there is virtually no PTH, and calcium can't be effectively utilized ....

With too much magnesium, an individual thing, PTH can be suppressed.

https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12902-021-00838-y

"Levels of PTH may be regulated by serum magnesium [5,6,7,8]. Hypermagnesemia may cause hypocalcemia, through activation of calcium-sensing receptors in the parathyroid glands, thereby suppressing PTH secretion [5,6,7,8]. "


Too little mag. , bad, too much mag., bad too.

Not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean something beyond the natural competition between calcium and magnesium? 'Physiologic' is a pretty broad term ....

That's a quote from the article.

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/physiologic

• • physiologic
    Listen to pronunciation
    (FIH-zee-uh-LAH-jik)
    Having to do with the functions of the body. When used in the phrase "physiologic age," it refers to an age assigned by general health, as opposed to calendar age.
    
    
    
    

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

physiologic
Listen to pronunciation
(FIH-zee-uh-LAH-jik)
Having to do with the functions of the body. When used in the phrase "physiologic age," it refers to an age assigned by general health, as opposed to calendar age.

I totally get what the definition of 'physiologic' is, but I'm still not sure which function of the body you're applying it to, if not the natural competition between calcium, mg, zing ....

When used in the phrase "physiologic age," it refers to an age assigned by general health, as opposed to calendar age.

I always thought that was 'biologic' age.

Semantics! Aren't. Fun ?

 

[lenora]

Hi @Crux......I'm familiar with what "physiologic" means; I was an RN at one time (granted, a long time ago. Still.)

I was hospitalized with an imbalance of electrolytes and other things. It's easy to have happen as we age and are faced with many medical woes. Unfortunately, if this is bad enough, IV fluids may have to be administered at a hospital b/c you can have many strange reactions.

I would start with something like Pedialyte that can help balance you out. I'm a firm believer (long before the Internet, reading multiple often difficult and confusing books) in the curative powers of self-help. Still, sometimes it's possible that we can get things wrong. You may be right, you may be wrong. I've been both.

What about your iodine intake (via ordinary table salt)? This will help your body hold onto what it needs without holding what it doesn't. I'm talking just generally - adding it to your food, not taking another supplement. I also suffer from very high BP, so don't overdo it at all.

You sound annoyed with me, and trust me, I'm not trying to make your concern worse or undermine it. I've also had shingles 4 times (3 in a row) so know how horrible attacks of shingles can be for us. I hope you haven't been left with even more neurological damage.

The tests are often confusing, at best. One lab will show one thing another lab something not as serious. Please hold that in your mind. Have you talked to your doctor or his nurse or PA? If you're truly concerned, make a very early morning appointment (most doctors do them to see emergency patients). State your concerns concisely and with your concern (contained concern) and then listen to the explanation. Most doctors know far, far more about the human body than we credit them. It's just that super long explanations only serve to confuse everyone.

Also, if that doesn't make your more comfortable in his/her judgment, please see a nutritionist who may help
with the situation.

I agree wholeheartedly that it can be hard to manage....and then can read too much information and that doesn't help. I've been through multiple problems and somehow manage to come out of them. I credit one good doctor that is always willing to help, but he has severe problems of his own at this point, so I make the question direct and to the point. The only doctor who can "assemble" the entire body is your internist. Specialists are just that.....they're extremely well trained, but internists deal with many problems all day long. I've been fortunate to have one that deals with the elderly. That helps my situation.

I worry about kidney function also. I'm recovering from a pelvis fractured in 5 different places, a fractured vertebra and a lingering 3 wk. problem due to allergies. It seems that we can go from one worry to the next.

I suffer from anxiety (and probably have my entire life) which makes the stakes even higher. I find that if I follow my neurologist's advice and take the lowest dose med twice/day, the difference is night and day. No, emotions aren't stopped, they're simply not as overwhelming. I'm not saying you do or don't suffer from it but it's very common in our whole population and causes many additional problems.

With this current illness, I've stopped most vitamins & supplements b/c of creating imbalance (although just a basic vitamin, mineral combo may be fine....but even at that, five days/wk. is more than enough). Eat well, that's where you'll gain the most momentum. Give your body every chance to recover on its own by doing so.
I do wish you well....please understand my concern. Yours, Lenora.

 

[Crux]

if not the natural competition between calcium, mg, zing ....

Explain the natural competition between ca, mg, and zinc. I don't understand .

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Explain the natural competition between ca, mg, and zinc. I don't understand .

They all compete with each other at the same sites for absorption, Normally this isn't necessarily a problem, except at higher doses. But I always separate them by a couple of hours, you know, just in case, and to optimize the uptake of each one .... cause every little bit helps. I like to think .....

EDIT .... typos and general exhaustion ....

 

[Chasinghope]

Hey you guys I am extremely thankfull for all the comments and please keep them coming! I want to respond to all of you but need to have a better moment for that.

I am very much in distress because I didn't take magnesium yesterday and today, and I'm feeling really poorly! I am getting the cramping back in my kalf (the painfull stabbing ones) and I'm feeling really weak and dizzy again. My eyes are so dry that they look red, and the red eyes are worsening for months as well, I'm afraid they are going to get infected, it scares the shit out of me! so I'm afraid trying to get magnesium from food alone is not working and I'm very much afraid of taking ANY step right now.

I am really confused at what my best options are from here, maybe try the glycinate without the ReMag, or maybe try the ReMag again but this time build it up more slowly with only 75mg more every few days.. or maybe try epsom salt foot baths (I don't have a bath) even though I tried magnesium chloride spray and footbaths and this has the same effect as supplements.. It did help me with the cramps but it made me feel exhausted as well.

How do I know when I am going to upp my magnesium dose again that I'm getting worse because of the low magnesium and it isn't enough, or because of the magnesium is too much for me??

I'm balancing my magnesium with calcium as well, when I go higher dose I take a supplement and k2 with it. Also take only a low dose of d3 (500mg but only when the sun doesnt shine, I don't know if that's too much??)

Sorry for the rant you guys, I wanted to respond to everyone of you but I'm too overwelmed and emotionally drained as well atm. SO scared of taking the wrong move because I'm trying all kind of things for 4 months now and I'm only making things worse and worse.. it's like my body is screaming for magnesium but at the same time can't handle it.

Thnx again for all the responses!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hi @Chasinghope ....

How're you doing?

Have you considered a simple electrolyte solution to start rebalancing your minerals and electrolytes? You could water it down to reduce the potency, and wait to increase it until your body feels like its able to handle it and wants more .....

I never found an electrolyte I liked much so I make my own weird little concoction every morning, to sort of kick-start my day ..... I dont know if you want to go to that much trouble when there are myriad options out there, from liquids to powders, that only require adding water ....

Hope you're feeling less alone and all at sea .... this is a confusing little bustard, and aout the best we can do is try shite and see what sticks ....

 

[Crux]

My eyes are so dry that they look red, and the red eyes are worsening for months as well, I'm afraid they are going to get infected, it scares the shit out of me! so I'm afraid trying to get magnesium from food alone is not working and

I wonder if you're phosphorus is too high. Red eyes may be a sign.

Since magnesium binds phosphorus, it may be helping to rid the excess. Calcium binds phosphorus too. Removing phosphorus can be uncomfortable.

Excess phosphorus is implicated in all cause mortality, which includes infections.

 

[Seadragon]

Not sure if you have food intolerances but if not, small amounts of dark chocolate (needs to be 70% cocoa I believe) can provide Magnesium in a food state form.

 

[Pearshaped]

@Chasinghope
just my two cents:
did I miss it or havent you tried magnesium citrate yet ? its sais absobtion is best with mag citrate.

Anyway, what about you get Magnesium into your body via subcuntaneous injection ?
its fairly easy to do and it would show if you really cant tolerate it or if its your gut that has a problem with it.(or your supplement)

Also, I had to try several magnesium supplements until I found the right one for me.
And what if you take a ready- to drink electolyte mix like normalyte or similar ?
does that make you feel worse too ?

also important is salt..
Do you eat enough salt and do you have POTS or OH or NMH ? or low cortisol ?
I had a time where I felt worse with too much magnesium bec it lowers Sodium too. which is needed when you cortisol is too low.

 

[Chasinghope]

Hi @Chasinghope ....

How're you doing?

Have you considered a simple electrolyte solution to start rebalancing your minerals and electrolytes? You could water it down to reduce the potency, and wait to increase it until your body feels like its able to handle it and wants more .....

I never found an electrolyte I liked much so I make my own weird little concoction every morning, to sort of kick-start my day ..... I dont know if you want to go to that much trouble when there are myriad options out there, from liquids to powders, that only require adding water ....

Hope you're feeling less alone and all at sea .... this is a confusing little bustard, and aout the best we can do is try shite and see what sticks ....

I'm not doing great, I feel extremely desperate and more and weak by the day.

I didn't take magnesium the day before yesterday, (the day before that, I took 750 ReMag, didn't sleep worse than the days before) and didn't feel worse, except in the afternoon started to feel a bit dizzy. I had a very light sleep the night after that and felt getting weaker and exhausted and my adrenals started to feel worse, but they where already crashing.. this evening I took only 75mg ReMag and had another very light sleep and my adrenals are definitely not doing okay and much worse than yesterday. So.. I am not doing okay with either stopping the Mag or taking the Mag in small dose or in larger dose..

I don't think that electrolytes are going to help me because I don't want to take the risk of lowering my b12 with potassium chloride (which I'm struggling to keep up sometimes) and I want to be carefull with too much sodium. Also there are so many different types which overwelm me and I want to keep it as natural as possible.

I take a lot of foods that have a lot of minerals in them like raw vegetable juices and black strap molasses and coconut water, I also make smoothies with bananas and hemp seeds that has around 150 of magnesium per smoothie and lots of potassium. I track my nutrients offten and always get more than enough minerals.

I am shaking from the inner tremmors as I'm writing this which I always have when my adrenals are getting really weak.

How can i find out they are crashing because I lowered the dose or because I took too much magnesium and I have a "rebound" effect or something? Like, if magnesium suppresses the nervous system than thats maybe the reason why it's getting worse when I stop? So maybe don't take magnesium at all anymore? Maybe I need more and more magnesium because it's stressing my adrenals and that is making me need to take more but also feel worse when I take more? But then a lot of symptoms has improved, but a lot are getting worse.. DAMN do I want this confusing shit to stop SO badly!!

I am so sorry for ranting so much and I know I need to figure this out myself with trial and error but my mind is spinning and I can't think straight anymore..

Maybe it's an idea to get another RBC test? I only took it 6 weeks ago or so, but started ReMag 1 week before that. So if I get a RBC test nect week it's 2 months after starting ReMag.