Magnesium deficiënt but can't tolerate Magnesium.

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Not sure if you have food intolerances but if not, small amounts of dark chocolate (needs to be 70% cocoa I believe) can provide Magnesium in a food state form.
I don't know I this is called a food intolerance but everything that is stimulating makes my adrenals flare up. I cant even take a glas of green tea or a peace of darc chocolate because that makes me really nervous. Makes me feel like I took 10 cups of coffee.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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This is just a brief response, will be back later when cogitive is closer to functional ....
if magnesium suppresses the nervous system than thats maybe the reason why it's getting worse when I stop?
To my kowledge, mag doesnt suppress the CNS ..... it does block and reduce the uptake of glutamate, which when in excess, can have some extremely unnerving effects on your functioning. It's also supportive of GABA, both promoting production and increasing receptors, which is a good thing in terms of relieving stressful reactions. So no worries there ....
I am so sorry for ranting so much
Oh please !!! We're no strangers to The Rant, both reading them and writing them, zero apologies necessary.

We also know how deeply unmooring and terrifying the effects of this little multi-faceted misery of an illness can be, and I vividly remember the desperation to find anything that would help.

We're here for you, 7/24 ....

Back in a bit with more input..... need more coffee, a luxury denied to me for over three years because it increased ad hugely magnified my anxiety and stress responses. Now, if I brew it fairly weakly, I'm OK, and I thank the Caffeine Gods daily for that little gift ....
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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Excess phosphorus is implicated in all cause mortality, which includes infections.
Unless you have kidney or liver disease, or take a lot of phosphorus in supplement form, excess phosphorus is unlikely. This is due to a lot of stuff, but as you noted, magnesium and calcium will both bind to phosphorus.

Some signs of excess phosphorus are

  • muscle cramps or spasms.
  • numbness and tingling around the mouth.
  • bone and joint pain.
  • weak bones.
  • rash.
  • itchy skin.
 
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The only reference for RBC I can drag out of my irritable little brain cells is red blood cells, and I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean. Could you re-direct me?

Yeah, I think that's what I mean? It's a red blood cell blood test in steas of a serum test. I heard that's more accurate because there is only 1%magnesium in serum..
 
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This is just a brief response, will be back later when cogitive is closer to functional ....

To my kowledge, mag doesnt suppress the CNS ..... it does block and reduce the uptake of glutamate, which when in excess, can have some extremely unnerving effects on your functioning. It's also supportive of GABA, both promoting production and increasing receptors, which is a good thing in terms of relieving stressful reactions. So no worries there ....

Oh please !!! We're no strangers to The Rant, both reading them and writing them, zero apologies necessary.

We also know how deeply unmooring and terrifying the effects of this little multi-faceted misery of an illness can be, and I vividly remember the desperation to find anything that would help.

We're here for you, 7/24 ....

Back in a bit with more input..... need more coffee, a luxury denied to me for over three years because it increased ad hugely magnified my anxiety and stress responses. Now, if I brew it fairly weakly, I'm OK, and I thank the Caffeine Gods daily for that little gift ....
Thnx for the reasurence 😊 and I'm very excited for you that you can drink your coffee again!!😉 enjoy🙂
 
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15
Okay.. so I have found something on the internet and I can use some insights if it's nonsence or not, but it could explane what is going on with me.

I haven't found any reseach backing this up, so I'm very sceptical. Aspecially sinds the reseach that IS done, is made by the director of the company if I'm correct. And the studie is without placebo so🤷‍♀️ I don't know..

Anyhow, they say that the Ca/Mg-ATPase pump with people with M.E (and other conditions) can be impaired.

https://www.betterbones.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Magnesium-Uptake-with-Choline-Citrate.pdf

And: https://www.perque.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/PERQUE-Choline-Citrate.pdf

Also I've read on another site that it takes mitochondia to work properly for the uptake of magnesium.

https://holisticprimarycare.net/top...holine-citrate-improves-magnesium-absorption/

So do you think there is truth in this and this can be the reason why magnesium knocks the life out of me, but even with high doses only relieves the cramp and twitches??

Maybe it's just a sales pitch, which worked because I bought there overprised product 😔 (something with desperation and the like)..
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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So do you think there is truth in this and this can be the reason why magnesium knocks the life out of me, but even with high doses only relieves the cramp and twitches??
I'm not sure. I have no exprience with choline citrate and the sales talk while convincing sounds .... familiar ...

The only way to find out is to give it a shot and see how it works for you.

Here are some other things to try or to consider.

I'm not sure if I asked you before about your Vit D3 intake, but if I did, I dont remember if there was an answer.

Sooooo .... do you take any D3? Mag and D3 are sort of synergistic. D3 won't absorb well, or even necessarily at all, without sufficient magnesium to help it along, and they seem to work and play well together, helping each other along.

Odds are that you may be deficient in D3, which can really screw with a WHOLE lotta systems. Vit D is lss a vitamin and more a quasi-hormone, and its lack can be felt everywhere from bones to nerves, immune system, thyroid, CNS, brain function, etc. Much like magnesium, if you're too low in D, everything's gonna be floopy.

Some of the B-vits may also help, and it's possible that you may be low in those as well. It's not uncommon in the ME population, but it's also not uncommon to be unusually sensitive to them, so small, small doses to start.

The same is true, unfortunately for D3. Not for all of us, but for enough for me to feel the need to express that possibility.

Vit C would be another I'd add to mag, and as I said before I'd recommend mag gly, just based on my experience with it, and the fact that it has the lowest probability for gut issues like diarrhea because it's bound to a molecule of glycine.. Glycine is a large molecule, so it digests in the stomach rather than shooting straight thru to you colon, the way smaller molecules like oxide do. It's also the most easily absorbed.

Choline is one of B vits, sort of, along with inositol. So choline citrate might make sense. Who knows?
Maybe it's just a sales pitch, which worked because I bought there overprised product 😔 (something with desperation and the like)..
Yeah, they count on that desperation, which doesnlt necessarily ean that their product wont help.

I dont think you could find even ONE sole, lonely member here who doesnt have a drawer or box-full things that they were hoping would be The Answer, that just .... weren't. No shame in that. Absent any real help from Drs, we're our own lab rats, our own Petrie dishes, and pretty much the only hope we have for help, at least right now.

Am only marginally functional right now (the coffee helped, but not as much as usual), so more may follow.

If you have any questions, ask away :):) :thumbsup::thumbsup: :hug:.....
 

Crux

Senior Member
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Unless you have kidney or liver disease, or take a lot of phosphorus in supplement form, excess phosphorus is unlikely. This is due to a lot of stuff, but as you noted, magnesium and calcium will both bind to phosphorus.

Excess phosphorus can damage anyone, even healthy people.
We can start with an overview :

https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/phosphorus#UL

"Two studies conducted in the general population and in individuals with prior CVD have linked high-normal serum phosphorus concentrations (≥3.5 mg/dL) to a greater cardiovascular risk (16, 17). Additional observational studies found that serum phosphorus concentrations equal to or above 4 mg/dL were associated with a doubling of the risk of developing incident CKD and end-stage renal disease in individuals free of renal disease at study inception (18)."


The so called normal range for serum phosphorus is typically 2.5 - 4.5 mg./ dl. Researchers calling phosphorus levels above 3.5 mg./ dl as a risk for cardiovascular disease and more, is alarming.


The symptoms of excess phosphorus are much more than you listed.
Soft tissue calcifications may occur, even causing disrupted cognitive function.

https://labs.selfdecode.com/blog/high-phosphorus/

"High phosphate levels may weaken the blood-brain barrier, which can have a major effect on brain function. In a study of 186 people, phosphate levels > 3.9 mg/dL were linked with 3.7 higher odds of brain lesions, likely resulting from a weakened blood-brain barrier [45]. "

There are members here who are showing signs and symptoms of early kidney disease.
 
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15
I'm not sure. I have no exprience with choline citrate and the sales talk while convincing sounds .... familiar ...

The only way to find out is to give it a shot and see how it works for you.

Here are some other things to try or to consider.

I'm not sure if I asked you before about your Vit D3 intake, but if I did, I dont remember if there was an answer.

Sooooo .... do you take any D3? Mag and D3 are sort of synergistic. D3 won't absorb well, or even necessarily at all, without sufficient magnesium to help it along, and they seem to work and play well together, helping each other along.

Odds are that you may be deficient in D3, which can really screw with a WHOLE lotta systems. Vit D is lss a vitamin and more a quasi-hormone, and its lack can be felt everywhere from bones to nerves, immune system, thyroid, CNS, brain function, etc. Much like magnesium, if you're too low in D, everything's gonna be floopy.

Some of the B-vits may also help, and it's possible that you may be low in those as well. It's not uncommon in the ME population, but it's also not uncommon to be unusually sensitive to them, so small, small doses to start.

The same is true, unfortunately for D3. Not for all of us, but for enough for me to feel the need to express that possibility.

Vit C would be another I'd add to mag, and as I said before I'd recommend mag gly, just based on my experience with it, and the fact that it has the lowest probability for gut issues like diarrhea because it's bound to a molecule of glycine.. Glycine is a large molecule, so it digests in the stomach rather than shooting straight thru to you colon, the way smaller molecules like oxide do. It's also the most easily absorbed.

Choline is one of B vits, sort of, along with inositol. So choline citrate might make sense. Who knows?

Yeah, they count on that desperation, which doesnlt necessarily ean that their product wont help.

I dont think you could find even ONE sole, lonely member here who doesnt have a drawer or box-full things that they were hoping would be The Answer, that just .... weren't. No shame in that. Absent any real help from Drs, we're our own lab rats, our own Petrie dishes, and pretty much the only hope we have for help, at least right now.

Am only marginally functional right now (the coffee helped, but not as much as usual), so more may follow.

If you have any questions, ask away :):) :thumbsup::thumbsup: :hug:.....
Thank you for your response and sorry for the late reply, I'm in a pretty bad spiral downward and I'm really overwelmed. And I'm SO scared of making the wrong decision right now out of fear of making it all worse..

I think the most wise thing to do is to get tested every month and see what my levels are doing with which dose, because I'm crashing the whole time and the symptoms are all over the place so it's really difficult to say what's going on and why my body reacts like that.

Maybe I did the wrong thing but I upped my dose yesterday, I was crashing anyhow and my spasms game back, so maybe my levels are dropping again.. who knows.😔

Normally I took vitamin d3 because I was at the lower side, but no matter how much d3 I took I coudn't get the levels up. I took a lower dose d3 because I heared one needs to be carefull with d3 when low in magnesium but today took 1000mg again.

I also take vitamin c yes🙂.

Yeah it's heartbreaking.. trying all diferent things and getting your hopes up everytime, and than being smashed in the face again with another dissepointment, year after year.. M.E is brutal. Thank you for the understanding and for the "letting me rant thing😉"

You know what the weird thing is? Looking back my low magnesium symptoms started 5 years ago. I had a relapse in my eating disorder (don't struggle anymore with that) and I didn't get my period any more for a few months due to being underweight ( It was a short relapse and my last one). Having M.E at the same time this really stressed my body out and I coudn't sleep at all anymore, so that's when I started supplementing with magnesium which helped with sleep so I kept taking them, but looking back that's when some symptoms popped up. I had a hard time regulating my blood suger around my period and my skin was getting dry. I thought it was just my hormones being off and that it could take a while before balanced again, but it stayed. Now these symptoms are getting worse the more depleted I am so I know it's because of low magnesium.. I really don't know what to make of that🙄 other that taking magnesium makes my low magnesium worse ??..
yeah, I'm totally not confused at all🤔
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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Maybe I did the wrong thing but I upped my dose yesterday, I was crashing anyhow and my spasms game back, so maybe my levels are dropping again.. who knows.😔
There absolutely is no ' ...wrong thing...' when trying to find our way out of the labyrinth of issues and problems that this little constant misery of an illness delivers ....
Normally I took vitamin d3 because I was at the lower side, but no matter how much d3 I took I coudn't get the levels up. I took a lower dose d3 because I heared one needs to be carefull with d3 when low in magnesium but today took 1000mg again.
Which test are you using for your vit D?

The most effective are the 25-OH Vitamin D test, 25(OH)D for short, and the calcidiol 25-hydroxycholecalcifoerol test. The 25(OH)D is the most usual test.

Also, while Vit D is great for mobilizing calcium in your system, among other things, in order to make sure that it goes to the right places, like bones and teeth, and the wrong ones, like joints, arteries, and blood vesse ls, you need to add MK-7, which guarantees that the calcium will land in the right places ....

After a longish period of not being able to tolerate Vit D at all, I slowly started back on it, using children's drops, and gradually worked my way up to my current dose of 5,500 iu a day, since I'm partially bedbound and totally housebound, which, given the state of the world right now, is fine my me, if a little limiting .... I accompany that aout 3 hrs after with 2-300 mcgs of MK-7

Have you trialed the choline citrate yet? It would be so WONDERFUL if that solved the problem, or even reduced the problems somewhat.
I also take vitamin c yes🙂.
How much, what kind, and how often? I always take abt 250 mgs with every 100 mgs of magnesium ....
Yeah it's heartbreaking.. trying all diferent things and getting your hopes up everytime, and than being smashed in the face again with another dissepointment, year after year.. M.E is brutal.
We've all been there, still are there, and keep on keepin' on. Dont get discouraged. It takes a lot of trial and error to find the unique thing or blend of 'thing' that actually works. Don't beat yourself up !!!
Now these symptoms are getting worse the more depleted I am so I know it's because of low magnesium.
It sounds like it to me, but again, I'm not a medical professional. And damned proud of it.
yeah, I'm totally not confused at all🤔
:D:D:D :rofl::rofl: :lol::lol::lol::lol: :_:_:_ ... Well, join the ME conga line, which goes in multiple directions, because, you know, confused !!!!
 
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Thanks for your kind reply! I really needed to hear that! It's a very lonely battle and it's nice (but also heartbreaking) that someone has a understanding of the struggle. I do have a bad habit of beating myself up for when I can't figure out what my body needs, but working on it😊. So thanks again!!

Just a update. I am NOT doing well. Just upped my dose again the las few days because I felt the spasm coming back so I thought that maybe I wasn't taking anough. Also had a convo with one of the people who work for Dr Carolyn Dean and he said that some people need as much as 1500mg to see result, so I tried to upp my dose with 75mg (I was already feeling worse) and yesterday evening I could hardly walk because my legs felt so heavy and this night I kept waking up from the stabbing spasms in my legs. When I turned around in my bed the whole room spinned around as well it's early morning and I'm really dizzy and I feel like someone drugged me😔..

I just called my doctor (a new one, the last one told me to search for vulenteer work because she wanted to get me of off the couch where I'm laying on for the last 9 years, still angry about that comment.) to ask if there lab had a RBC test as well, and she told me that it would be best to see a endocrinologist. I don't know if that's a good idea or not but I have such a bad experience with medical doctors that I just don't have a good feeling about that. They normally can't find anything wrong with me and it only causing me more stress and A LOT of money to go to a speciallist. What do you think?? You think that would be helpfull??

Don't really know what to do, don't know what's going on. I think I need to stop the magnesium all together because my body reacts so weirdly to it, Oh my gosh that's going to hurt like hell😖.. I'm feeling the stabbing pain coming up already as I'm writing this.

I also need to find someone who can take care of my dog now for awhile😢, I don't have any friends or family so live very isolated. He is going to be castrated next week so it's more easy to find a place for him, I hope just for a short while. This is really hard crashing like this and than needing to get distance from my only support because I'm getting to weak to take care of him😢.

I think the choline citrate is going to be here in about a week or so.. but I don't know if I'm gling to be able to test if it works because than I need to start the magnesium again as well.

Oh and yes, I take 500 to 750 whole foods vitamin c. I do best with this dosage and kind. Also don't know which test it was, but I just assume now that I'm too low in it sinds my magnesium is too low as well. And I take k2 as well, and when I take a very high dose of magnesium I balanse it with the calcium. Just to keep my ratio's right.

Sorry that my writing is a bit all over the place, I write one peace and than I need to take a break and than my mind jumps to a different thing again😓 also to tired figuring out how to respond in those quoting thingies.
Sorry for the inconvienense... incon... something something.. you know what I mean😉(also too tired to look for the translation).
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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I don't know if that's a good idea or not but I have such a bad experience with medical doctors that I just don't have a good feeling about that.
And again, you're in the right place.

Every one of us, and for women even more so ad twice on days ending in "Y", have had poor experiences with Drs and the medical community generally, with various forms of medical gaslighting (various forms of " ....it's all in your head ...")

Here's a link to a recent thread about that, and the article posted in it, so you'll know that you're not alone ....

Sexism In Healthcare Is Real … Women Are Sharing Times They Were Misdiagnosed Because Their Doctors Didn't Take Them Seriously
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...didnt-take-them-seriously.87540/#post-2396923

Women Are Sharing Times They Were Misdiagnosed Because Their Doctors Didn't Take Them Seriously, And Sexism In Healthcare Is Real …
https://news.yahoo.com/people-were-misdiagnosed-serious-issues-164602728.html

when I take a very high dose of magnesium I balanse it with the calcium. Just to keep my ratio's right.
Calcium and magnesium compete for absorption at the same sites, sort of elbowing each other out, so it would be good to separate them by a couple of hours ....
Sorry that my writing is a bit all over the place,
Def not a problem. Been thre. Honest.
I write one peace and than I need to take a break and than my mind jumps to a different thing again😓
I know what you mean. I call it The Shiny Object Syndrome .... the mind just jumps around like a demented flea from one thing to another. Again, not to worry. If I dont understand something, I'll ask ....
also to tired figuring out how to respond in those quoting thingies.
Here's the easy way ....

  • Highlight a sentence or two
  • A pop up box will appear with a choice of 'Quote' or 'Reply'. For now, we'll focus on 'Reply' ...
  • Click on 'Reply'. This will shoot you down to your reply box, where whatever you've highlighted will be waiting for you.
  • Respond as usual.
  • Done
Sorry for the inconvienense... incon... something something.. you know what I mean😉(
Why yes. Yes I do ....

I'm not sure what to do about your magnesium problem, but we'll figure something out ....
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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Hi @Chasinghope ....

Have been wondering how you're doing, if you were able to trial the choline citrate ad if yo did, did it help ..... also did you get the RBC?

A hoping that you're doing OK. OK-Ish.

I know the challenge of trialing new things. I have a small shopping bag of things I was desperate to try because of what I'd researched, and later, what I'd read in these threads, but when push came to shove, I just couldnt risk an adverse reaction. So there they sit, waiting for a braver day.


Hit me back if you're up to it. Sending a hug, a ' .... there, there ...', and a promise that things will get better....:hug::hug: :thumbsup:
 
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15
Hi @Chasinghope ....

Have been wondering how you're doing, if you were able to trial the choline citrate ad if yo did, did it help ..... also did you get the RBC?

A hoping that you're doing OK. OK-Ish.

I know the challenge of trialing new things. I have a small shopping bag of things I was desperate to try because of what I'd researched, and later, what I'd read in these threads, but when push came to shove, I just couldnt risk an adverse reaction. So there they sit, waiting for a braver day.

Hit me back if you're up to it. Sending a hug, a ' .... there, there ...', and a promise that things will get better....:hug::hug: :thumbsup:

Hi YippeeKi! Thank you very much for thinking about me, means a lot to me. How are you doing?

I'm not doing okay unfortianely, I stopped the magnesium 2 weeks ago and the dizzyspells went away but I'm still dizzy and I have LESS spasms and cramps without the magnesium so deffinetly some adverse reaction to the magnesium.

I also slept 5 hours at night at a high dose magnesium and now it's getting less again, so that's a bummer, but I at least feel less drugged so🤷‍♀️..

I think, looking back, that I almost always have a adverse reaction when I try something that works on the nervous system some how. I even get irritated and insomnia if I take chamille tea every evening for more than a week and CBD oil makes me hallucinate if I take it more than a week as well, should be working like a anti hallucinate not inducing them.

And even though I still feel like my magnesium is dropping more, I noticed that the magnesium made me so exhausted I needed to take a 2 to 3 hour nap everyday and sinds 2 days I have not been able to do that and I feel this nervous energy again. So it's super weird, but I was thinking that maybe my nervous system feels it's under so much danger that it fights back when something tries to calm it down or something.. I don't know, but even meditation makes me really really nervous! Not to mention thinks like yoga etc.

I try to get as much magnesium from food and I make 2 high magnesium smoothies with lost of hempseeds and pumkin seeds, that's around 400mg magnesium more a day and I take 1/4 of the dosage of choline citrate in my smoothie but haven't noticed any improvements. Most days I get around 600 to 1000mg magnesium but I also have digestive issues so I don't know hoe the absorption rate it..

Thank you so much for the reasurence, much needed as I really don't know how this is ever going to be okay again.

Eta: I forgot to answer your question. I have not done another RBC test because ironically enough I'm too ill to go to hospital to get my blood drawn, and also because I'm getting so dehydrated that I'm a bit scared it's going to hurt a lot because last to times it was already really painfull and difficult to get it drawn. I'm getting more and more thirsty and my eyes are getting more red and feels like there is sand in them so I guess it's not getting eny better. Sorry for the ranting, I'm getting really upset by this, it's just scary and I have nobody to talk to.
 
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Slushiefan

Senior Member
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121
Coming from the anecdotal and experiential is where I personally find the most success. To that end, here is my story.

Any kind of magnesium, except for Magnesium Threonate, makes me super sleepy. If I take a 100% RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) I am sleepy within a few hours, for several days afterward.

The effects of magnesium are cumulative over time as well, meaning that even if I reduce to a daily dose of 20% RDA, by the second or third day I am again extremely sleepy.

It will move my daily sleep from 10-12 hrs up to 12-16 hrs. It occurs as long as I am taking it (I tried for nearly a week one time, thinking I might get accustomed to it, but that never happened).

But this is not the end of the story.

Threonate does not make me sleepy at any point, but if I take even one dose of threonate, then don't take any the following day, my eye will start twitching the next day, and my feet cramp for 1-2 days.

My summary: Magnesium has 'withdrawal' like symptoms, where eye twitching occurs after removing it. This will go on for several days after stopping until things balance out.

Moral of my story is I don't take it.

But if I had to take magnesium, eg I was low, I have discovered that full RDA dosage of Calcium offsets the magnesium quite a bit.

Suggest you try combining with slow release calcium if you have to take that.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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I have discovered that full RDA dosage of Calcium offsets the magnesium quite a bit.
It doesn't offset it as much as it blocks its absorption, so you might as well just skip the magnesium entirely. Calcium and magnesium compete with each other for absorption, so taking them at the same time, or taking a time-release calcium, just elbows the magnesium out of the way and it's excreted, unutilized, in your urine.


Because of widespread need for magnesium in our systems (it's critical to more than 300 enzyme conversions, among many other things), it's highly unusual to have a build-up of magnesium in your system, and the opposite is usually truer.

Symptoms of magnesium toxicity include nausea, vomiting, hypotension, urine retention, depression, facial flushing, and can progress to muscle weakness, extreme hypotension, irregular heartbeat, and difficulty breathing. These symptoms are usually due to kidney impairment or disease rather than to the magnesium itself.

EDIT ... for more info and a couple of typos ...
 
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Slushiefan

Senior Member
Messages
121
It doesn't offset it as much as it blocks its absorption, so you might as well just skip the magnesium entirely. Calcium and magnesium compete with each other for absorption, so taking them at the same time, or taking a time-release calcium, just elbows the magnesium out of the way and it's excreted, unutilized, in your urine.

That would make sense, I agree.
 
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