Long-term daily mHBOT and full recoveries w/ ongoing maintenance

[Sushi]

I’m interested in the Shallow Dive by s to s.

What do you think?

The shallow dive would be fine unless you are claustrophobic. You would not be able to sit up in it. I am using a 34 inch chamber which gives me eight more inches of headroom. But if you don’t mind having to lie down and are not claustrophobic you will get the same effects from this chamber as from a larger one.

 

[junkcrap50]

The literature shows that for increasing brain perfusion, there is not much difference between 1.5 ATM and higher pressures. Higher pressures are usually used only for Lyme. So, soft shell 1.3 ATM can be just as good, if you use supplemental oxygen. There are various ways to increase the dissolved oxygen in your blood using supplemental oxygen. See here: http://biotoxinjourney.com/the-case-for-mild-hbot/#HBOT_Partial_Pressures_of_Oxygen_Table

 

[junkcrap50]

The shallow dive would be fine unless you are claustrophobic. You would not be able to sit up in it. I am using a 34 inch chamber which gives me eight more inches of headroom. But if you don’t mind having to lie down and are not claustrophobic you will get the same effects from this chamber as from a larger one.

The larger the chamber, the easier it is to get in and out of it and to zip it up.

 

[Sushi]

The larger the chamber, the easier it is to get in and out of it and to zip it up.

I agree. Even with the 34 “ I have to use something to prop the roof up while I am working with the zippers—otherwise it is pressing on your head. I also use a clip on fan as it gets hot in there.

But, if price is the most critical thing someone could find a way to manage the 26 “ chamber. I can’t sit up in the 34”.

 

[Wayne]

@Wayne thanks for the info! That’s really helpful and in that case maybe a 1.3-1.5 would be plenty. Could also add 100% O2 and I’m sure that would help. ... How much have you improved functionally and what virus were you treating if you don’t mind me asking? If you got labs done

 

[Swim15]

Did you get one? Very interested in trying HBOT but at a clinic for 15 sessions

I’m working on it and hope to relatively soon

 

[Swim15]

Planning on buying one here in the next few weeks hopefully but also looking at DIY.


Has anyone done something like this? Not all that difficult

 

[used_to_race]

Has anyone done something like this? Not all that difficult

I didn't DIY my own chamber but I've repaired a hole in one of the more traditional commercial versions using flexible epoxy and PU coated fabric. This seems like it would work but after the parts, the pump, and all the work involved you're still looking at probably close to $1000 or more depending on how much you value your time. And you'd still need to buy an O2 concentrator which provides most of the additional oxygen at these lower pressures.

 

[Swim15]

I didn't DIY my own chamber but I've repaired a hole in one of the more traditional commercial versions using flexible epoxy and PU coated fabric. This seems like it would work but after the parts, the pump, and all the work involved you're still looking at probably close to $1000 or more depending on how much you value your time. And you'd still need to buy an O2 concentrator which provides most of the additional oxygen at these lower pressures.

Yeah you need to buy a concentrator or an O2 tank either way.

I looked around and you could build one with an old propane tank, air tank, or 55-85 gallon steel barrels which would probably be the easiest and cheapest. Could do one that went up to 2atm for less than $1000.

Probably gonna but one but will update

 

[used_to_race]

Wanted to update everyone here because I have been feeling symptomatic again for a few weeks. I think it was caused by doing a number of hard bike rides in pretty hot conditions, which I should have avoided. Waiting to see if it will gradually subside or this is a more medium/long-term decline. If you went on thinking I was feeling great then I'd feel as though I've misled you all. For @Hip I think the takeaway is that I was at like 9/10 (remission or near-remission) and now I'm back down to like a 7 (mild symptoms that definitely impact quality of life).

Symptoms which have worsened include sore throat (small increase), tachycardia (moderate increase - this was basically gone but now it's episodic nearly every day at some level. I wouldn't currently meet criteria for POTS but it's still unpleasant especially when standing), headaches (get a mild headache for a little while almost every day).

I called my doc and got a lot of bloodwork drawn. CBC, CMP, Vit D, EBV Antibody Panel and PCR, couple other things. All normal including inflammatory markers. Vitamin D was on the very low end of normal which is a little odd since I was getting all that sun. I get a SARS-CoV2 PCR swab weekly and they've all been negative.

I'm still able to work my normal full-time (mostly WFH) schedule. Starting additional part-time grad school and maintaining volunteer commitments. I've stopped doing much exercise for now other than walks and shorter bike rides, but even that is tough to fit in currently with the abysmal air quality due to fires (even the local pros have stopped training outdoors).

The most dramatic shift I've noticed is that I'm suddenly very sensitive to caffeine. If I have anything more than a green tea it really exacerbates my symptoms, whereas before I was drinking 2-3 cups of coffee per day.

My (completely based on nothing) hypothesis is that these hard training rides in the heat cause my body to produce something like an antibody that takes time to ramp up, but sticks around for some time. So once the quantity is sufficient to cause symptoms, a reduction in the trigger won't immediately impact symptoms - this thing has to decay on its own. I say antibody because those take weeks to months to decay which is probably the timescale we're dealing with here, but it could be anything. I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I'll keep everyone posted - hoping this is just a temporary thing and reduction in exposure to heat and activity will allow me to slowly recover.

 

[Swim15]

^That sounds more plausible than you probably know.

It depends on the virus and this is all fairly new research but Coxsackie virus, for example, uses activation of the heat receptor TRPV1 to initiate pro viral mitochondrial fission.

Essentially heat and exertion increases viral prevalence through the same mechanism that autophagy works and sends out viral particles while causing mitochondrial fission in surrounding cells.

Someone will correct me if I said something way off there

 

[used_to_race]

Essentially heat and exertion increases viral prevalence through the same mechanism that autophagy works and sends out viral particles while causing mitochondrial fission in surrounding cells.

Would you have a link to this research? Also wouldn't this be dependent on there being, you know, an active viral infection?

 

[Swim15]

Would you have a link to this research? Also wouldn't this be dependent on there being, you know, an active viral infection?

I mean the whole crux of ME/CFS is an ‘active‘, likely abnormal, infection so yeah.

Don’t have studied in front of me but here’s one

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7232514/

 

[used_to_race]

I mean the whole crux of ME/CFS is an ‘active‘, likely abnormal, infection so yeah.

I'm not sure there's good evidence for that. Certainly there is an abnormal response to an infectious trigger in a large majority of cases. But other than some decades-old studies on positive enterovirus PCR in a group of ME/CFS patients, I don't think there's really any good evidence for active infection in ME/CFS. EBV is regarded as a common trigger and as far as I know, there's no evidence of EBV viremia in any ME/CFS patients. There's some stuff known about how EBV and other viruses can "trick" various parts of the immune system (I think even SARS-CoV2 is believed to do this), but these mechanisms of trickery haven't been studied in ME/CFS patients and controls to see if there's a difference. We don't even have a reliable biomarker besides some experimental approaches that are far from mechanistic in their explanatory power and lack interpretability. Let me know if I'm missing something obvious but that's my point of view.

 

[Swim15]

I'm not sure there's good evidence for that. Certainly there is an abnormal response to an infectious trigger in a large majority of cases. But other than some decades-old studies on positive enterovirus PCR in a group of ME/CFS patients, I don't think there's really any good evidence for active infection in ME/CFS. EBV is regarded as a common trigger and as far as I know, there's no evidence of EBV viremia in any ME/CFS patients. There's some stuff known about how EBV and other viruses can "trick" various parts of the immune system (I think even SARS-CoV2 is believed to do this), but these mechanisms of trickery haven't been studied in ME/CFS patients and controls to see if there's a difference. We don't even have a reliable biomarker besides some experimental approaches that are far from mechanistic in their explanatory power and lack interpretability. Let me know if I'm missing something obvious but that's my point of view.

Personally I don't agree and think almost all of the available evidence points to an abnormal viral infection. If nothing else this makes sense given all of the drugs commonly used (antivrials, IV immunoglobulin, interferon, monoclonal antibodies, etc) as well as therapies that decrease overall viral load like HBOT. This also corresponds to a lot of the viral titers we see in CFS patients.

I think thats fairly clear from all the literature I've read and even the 'mainstream' literature cites acute onset of ME/CFS after viral infection but, as always with complex diseases, there will be widely differing opinions.

 

[used_to_race]

EDIT: I'm going to PM you @Swim15 because this discussion is getting off-topic for the thread

 

[Swim15]

Does anyone with a soft chamber know if there’s any way you could modify the pressure release in order to obtain slightly higher pressures around 1.5atm?

Almost all soft shell chambers are rated for 1.5atm even if they aren’t sold in the US so operating at that pressure wouldnt cause any issue with the chamber.

I can’t imagine it would be that hard to modify a pressure release if you really wanted to but haven’t seen one of the soft chambers in person either.

If that might be possible, are there any brands it might be easier with?

 

[Hip]

Does anyone with a soft chamber know if there’s any way you could modify the pressure release in order to obtain slightly higher pressures around 1.5atm?

Decades ago there was a story in the UK newspapers of two British cardiologists who wanted to experiment with HBOT for their heart patients, and so enthusiastically built their own homemade hard HBOT chamber in their garage. Unfortunately the chamber exploded while being pressurized, and they were both killed.

So I would be wary about pushing the pressure above the design limit. Soft chambers do not go up to the 2 or 3 atmospheres used in hard chambers, they only go up to around 1.3 atm, but nevertheless I would guess it could still be dangerous if they exploded.



I am also rather confused about why soft chambers offer any advantages over breathing near 100% oxygen.

In air, oxygen is at a 21% concentration. Thus if you are breathing near 100% oxygen from a good oxygen concentrator machine that can deliver near 100% oxygen at 10 liters per minute (these cost around $1000), that alone will increase the partial pressure of oxygen by 100 ÷ 21 = nearly 5 times, compared to normal.

Whereas in a soft HBOT chamber, which typically have pressures of 1.3 atm (but some can be pushed to 1.5 atm), and according to this article use an oxygen supply providing a 24% concentration of oxygen, the increase in oxygen partial pressure is just over 1.3.

In hard HBOT chambers by contrast, the article says people breathe 100% oxygen, plus the pressure may be up to 3 atm. So you increase the partial pressure of oxygen nearly 5 times just by breathing 100% pure oxygen, then multiply that by 3 because of the pressure increase, and you get a partial pressure of oxygen that's around 15 times higher than normal in a hard HBOT chamber.

So I can understand why hard HBOT therapy is effective; but cannot understand why soft HBOT is any better than breathing 100% oxygen at normal pressure.

I actually wrote to a number of HBOT experts asking them why soft chambers are considered better than breathing near 100% oxygen, but none replied to my emails.

 

[Learner1]

Does anyone with a soft chamber know if there’s any way you could modify the pressure release in order to obtain slightly higher pressures around 1.5atm?

Almost all soft shell chambers are rated for 1.5atm even if they aren’t sold in the US so operating at that pressure wouldnt cause any issue with the chamber.

I can’t imagine it would be that hard to modify a pressure release if you really wanted to but haven’t seen one of the soft chambers in person either.

If that might be possible, are there any brands it might be easier with?

I agree with @Hip 's advice about not pushing these chambers above their correct levels. The components can fail, including the seams and the zippers, resulting in serious accidents. I would only use them as the manufacturer directed.

They are better than using just inhaled oxygen. The pressure helps to push the oxygen further into the tissues, getting more benefit. Interestingly, there was a study at the VA hospital in New Orleans where they used h-bot chambers with and without oxygen, and they found that the patients in the pressurized chambers without added oxygen improved from baseline, so they had to discontinue and rethink their study. The message was that the pressure helps, and that the oxygen has an additional beneficial effect.

The one thing you might be want to be aware of is that continued use of oxygen on eyes may be problematic and lead to eye problems due to the oxidative stress. You might look into closing your eyes or taking antioxidants or using antioxidant eye drops to defend against this.

 

[gerard]

Does anyone with a soft chamber know if there’s any way you could modify the pressure release in order to obtain slightly higher pressures around 1.5atm?

Almost all soft shell chambers are rated for 1.5atm even if they aren’t sold in the US so operating at that pressure wouldnt cause any issue with the chamber.

I can’t imagine it would be that hard to modify a pressure release if you really wanted to but haven’t seen one of the soft chambers in person either.

If that might be possible, are there any brands it might be easier with?

I have a used Newtown chamber out of warranty - I replaced the valves and am treating at 6 psi from 4.2 psi.
I also breath from a rebreather bag(no mask) to get full oxygen concentrator utilization.
The Newtown chamber was tested many cycles at 7psi from the factory - also called a sales rep and stated she had never seen a structural failure, only zipper failures from bad zippers or incorrect zipper use.
I am willing to "eat" a few chambers than continue with this infection(chlamydia pneumoniae).