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Long Covid, Short Magnesium (Chambers, 2022)

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
2,997
Hello friends,

we haven't had any tests done, but on a whim I bought some magnesium powder at a local store.
I figured powder was a good option as we could control the dosage.

so now I'm looking for a recommendation for dosage for her to try out for a start.View attachment 48665

Also might be relevant so worth noting. my wife sometimes struggles to sleep when she takes a deep sleep magnesium supplements that includes A bunch of other stuff. I've taken this supplement too and it helps only if I get to sleep within about an hour of taking it and if not it makes it harder to sleep - I believe my wife has a similar experience.View attachment 48666View attachment 48667
I find that deep restful sleep bit interesting since it does not have that effect on me,
I would be curious the mechanism that its supposed to improve sleep quality if anyone knows, since that would be a clue i can backtrack with.
 

Husband of

Senior Member
Messages
313
I find that deep restful sleep bit interesting since it does not have that effect on me,
I would be curious the mechanism that its supposed to improve sleep quality if anyone knows, since that would be a clue i can backtrack with.
According to healthline,

First, magnesium regulates neurotransmitters, which send signals throughout the nervous system and brain.
It also regulates the hormone melatonin, which guides sleep-wake cycles in your body (7Trusted Source).

Second, this mineral binds to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors. GABA is the neurotransmitter responsible for quieting down nerve activity. It is the same neurotransmitter used by sleep drugs like Ambien (8Trusted Source, 9Trusted Source).
By helping to quiet the nervous system, magnesium may help prepare your body and mind for sleep.
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
2,997
According to healthline,

First, magnesium regulates neurotransmitters, which send signals throughout the nervous system and brain.
It also regulates the hormone melatonin, which guides sleep-wake cycles in your body (7Trusted Source).

Second, this mineral binds to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors. GABA is the neurotransmitter responsible for quieting down nerve activity. It is the same neurotransmitter used by sleep drugs like Ambien (8Trusted Source, 9Trusted Source).
By helping to quiet the nervous system, magnesium may help prepare your body and mind for sleep.
Interesting, so this likely means all of these neurotransmitters are out of whack for me.
That said benzos have a specific receptor they target and they are addictive and cross tolerant to alcohol so thats just over generalizing on their part.
Though thats also a good point, alcohol has no intoxicating effect on me.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
I've long been a tireless and probably tedious proponent of magnesium supplementation, since it was what pulled me out of being completely bedbound and pretty much vegetative. I used a dosing schedule that it took me a a while to craft, but once I found that very small amounts on a very frequent dosing schedule worked where larger doses did absolutely nothing, it was sort of gradual magic, with things slowly improving.

Thanks for posting this @Consul ....
Large does orally would be mostly excreted as magnesium is tightly regulated by the body. It is used as a constipation medication for this reason. So smaller doses more frequent orally definitely should work way better.

I find having occasional baths of epsom salts does the trick for me. You know its getting into you when heart rate becomes noticable in your chest and muscles become floppy. Best to get out just as this is happening, be careful.
It bypasses your stomach and gut, it gets absorb by diffusion through the skin I think and becomes much more evenly distributed around the body. Cells all over the body can have wildly different magnesium in them and when deficient it is hard to replete everywhere. Laying in a solution of magnesium that covers most of your body seems more efficient to me.

If oral works for you cool. Could you share what you take and the shedule you use I might try taking with supplements now I am repleted (I think). Thanks
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Hello @Husband of

@YippeeKi YOW !! Was severe and found taking 50mg an hour I think? Made a big difference but it took awhile to work. She can confirm the details. I see she has already replied :)

I know from my own talks with Joshua Leisk that it's vital she doesn't take more than 100mg in an four hour period becuass there are studies showing this will cause magnesium dumping. The opposite of what you want.
What I do is take magnesium ascorbate (source naturals brand - buy from iherb) 120mg 3 x a day. Thats plenty of magnesium and incorporates 1g of vitamin c 3 x a day too. Good combo.

Also the type of magnesium is vital to understand. I'm afeiad the products you've got there include some cheap and nasty versions of magnesium. Which I'm afraid I don't recommend. They cause diherrea and are not bioavailable. Magnesium malate is another good type of magnesium but it's harder to find. Magnesium glycinate is the most bioavailable yet doesn't do much for me. Magnesium transdermal spray is also quite useful. I took this in my first 6 months of getting ME.

Explanation of all the types of magnesium here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/types-of-magnesium.51094/ scroll down for the right post.

I think the late PatJ had a thread on this too but I can't find it.
 

Husband of

Senior Member
Messages
313
Hello @Husband of

@YippeeKi YOW !! Was severe and found taking 50mg an hour I think? Made a big difference but it took awhile to work. She can confirm the details. I see she has already replied :)

I know from my own talks with Joshua Leisk that it's vital she doesn't take more than 100mg in an four hour period becuass there are studies showing this will cause magnesium dumping. The opposite of what you want.
What I do is take magnesium ascorbate (source naturals brand - buy from iherb) 120mg 3 x a day. Thats plenty of magnesium and incorporates 1g of vitamin c 3 x a day too. Good combo.

Also the type of magnesium is vital to understand. I'm afeiad the products you've got there include some cheap and nasty versions of magnesium. Which I'm afraid I don't recommend. They cause diherrea and are not bioavailable. Magnesium malate is another good type of magnesium but it's harder to find. Magnesium glycinate is the most bioavailable yet doesn't do much for me. Magnesium transdermal spray is also quite useful. I took this in my first 6 months of getting ME.

Explanation of all the types of magnesium here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/types-of-magnesium.51094/ scroll down for the right post.

I think the late PatJ had a thread on this too but I can't find it.
Argh, that powder cost me 40 odd NZ dollars (25 us or 20 pound). Not the end of the world for me to throw them out and get alternatives but Is it really not worth taking them? What about in the interim before I get different types? Bowel issues shouldn't be a problem for low doses should they?
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
I know it's very frustrating. I'm not sure how much money I've wasted honestly it's a joke. But it's in the thousands of pounds.

The photos you showed had citrate in which is a pretty cheap and bad form of mag. If you want to give it a go 100% do low doses. You want 100mg of magnesium 3 x a day not 1000. I can't believe they've got 1000 on there 🤣 that's like 4 times the RDA. Anyway if she is severe I do recommend yipees approach of 50mg every hour. Becuase she might just get her brain back you never know :) but dosing schedules are worth a shot I reckon.

But the best forms are magnesium biglycinate and I am not sure what form @YippeeKi YOW !! Takes but she can hopefully confirm. As I say I also take magnesium ascorbate and that seems to give me the mag I need tbh.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
As for bowel issues hard to say. First product I bought was citrate and it made my existing diherrea worse. This was 6 years ago. I probably took 200mg or maybe 400 a day. God I was so much healthier then than I am now. My ME has very very slowly deteriorated.

Good luck.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
we haven't had any tests done, but on a whim I bought some magnesium powder at a local store.
I figured powder was a good option as we could control the dosage.

so now I'm looking for a recommendation for dosage for her to try out for a start.
Hi fella I hope your loved one is coping well at the moment.

I would like to add that if you are deficient in magnesium then you are likely deficient in potassium.

If low in magnesium then the body struggles to hold on to the potassium.

I would also say that oral administration of mag can be difficult to make a substantial increase in magnesium in cells and especially across the whole body.

You may want to try your loved one with epsom salt (mag/sulfur) baths to first replete the magnesium. Then address the postassium. The magnesium gets absorbed through the skin. Orally if you take too much magnesium you will get diarrhoea as the body closely regulates blood level of magnesium, reason epsom salts are used as constipation med.
I was doing 1-2 epsom salts bath a week for sometime and then had issues that resolved after the addition of potassium citrate, which I take orally. Fresh greens and epsecially chard are good food items to help address both these nutrient issues and obviously will support supplementation.

For the epsom salt baths you want water that can cover legs when sitting and cover the upper body when laying in the bath. This is so you can alternate (if possible) between lower and upper body. Have the water as hot as is possible as this is thought to help absorption. Do not get on your head hair or in your eyes.

200g in the bath to start at no longer than 15-20 minutes at first. It is best to get out as soon as you feel heart rate and muscles relax, this is because it is getting into the body and these are signs to stop immediately and also that you have indeed absorbed some magnesium into your body. You can also add citric acid (vitamin C) to the water as this also will be absorbed through diffusion into the cells.
As you get a feel for how they respond add upto 500g and no longer than 30 minutes. Find what works best, less grams for longer time in bath or more grams for less time sitting/laying in the bath.
You can then get out before the heart rate increase and floppy muscle but still get maximum benefit.
This is what I use-
Hexeal EPSOM SALT | 10kg Bucket | Food Grade | Magnesium Sulphate : Amazon.co.uk: Baby Products
1659255825148.png

Hopefully you find this useful for your loved one.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
As for bowel issues hard to say. First product I bought was citrate and it made my existing diherrea worse. This was 6 years ago. I probably took 200mg or maybe 400 a day. God I was so much healthier then than I am now. My ME has very very slowly deteriorated.

Good luck.
Magnesium citrate would be a good form as it is just magnesium added to citric acid 1:1. likely think its bad because it gave you diarrhoea. Diarrhoea means you have absorbed more than is allowed in the blood and body expells it via rear end ;)
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Argh, that powder cost me 40 odd NZ dollars (25 us or 20 pound). Not the end of the world for me to throw them out and get alternatives but Is it really not worth taking them? What about in the interim before I get different types? Bowel issues shouldn't be a problem for low doses should they?
There is nothing wrong with your supplement. All I would worry about is the sorbitol causing stomach irritation.
Magnesium citrate is just magnesium and citric acid 1:1. Other think its bad because it gives diarrhoea more easilly and this is because it is more available, so when you absorb too much you get diarrhoea.

oh and Thaumatin (also known as talin) is a low-calorie sweetener and flavour modifier. The protein is often used primarily for its flavour-modifying properties and not exclusively as a sweetener.
 

Husband of

Senior Member
Messages
313
@godlovesatrier thanks. The sups also have magnesium amino acid chelate which sounds like it's ok according to this thing I found on abouthealth.co.NZ
Magnesium amino acid chelate – bound to an amino acid. There are a several different amino acids that magnesium is commonly combined with. These are the most difficult to make, but have excellent bioavailability, because they use protein pathways for absorption. Chelated magnesium can deliver the mineral to parts of your system that other forms do not penetrate. Magnesium acid chelates have a range of reported benefits, from increased energy levels, to improved mood, cognition and heart health.

And when you say 50mg I presume you mean elemental? Like where it says 5g of the powder provides 1408mg of magnesium but then in brackets below it says "(providing 250mg elemental)", perhaps just start with one gram of powder 3 times a day? Will see what yippee thinks too.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,545
Location
United Kingdom
Hey,

Yeah weird one that, it should be good but I've never really heard of anyone trying it.

50mg elemental yep. But that's Yippee's dose. For me it's a case of taking 120mg elemental 3x a day :)

So that's still too much magnesium and will cause dumping which you don't want. Take 33% of 1408mg and you should be fine. That's also a really good dose to start with too :) Take that 3x a day and should see an improvement in one or two weeks in terms of muscle function. Yippee also saw improvement in cognitive function I believe.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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Second star to the right ...
Magnesium citrate would be a good form as it is just magnesium added to citric acid 1:1. likely think its bad because it gave you diarrhoea.
Actually, no.

The reason that mag citrate might be a bad choice for sleep and/or anxiety issues is that citric acid is part of the Krebs or tricarboxylic cycle, whose primary, tho not only, function is to produce energy. It’s central to both the cycles of energy production and biosynthesis, and also fuels the production of ATP udring that process. Additionally, it also produces glumate as part of the Krebs cycle/Citric Acid cycle, which is the last thing someone with either sleep issues for anxiety issues needs more of.

Making it even less attractive is that it’s not particularly bioavailable, and less than 4% of the magnesium ingested in that form is actually absorbed and utilized by the system

Diarrhoea means you have absorbed more than is allowed in the blood and body expells it via rear end ;)
And nuh-uh again. The reason that binding mag to citric acid produces rapid-onset diarrhea is because citric acid is a very small molecule, and shoots thru the digestive system like a lightening strike, rapidly landing in the colon, where it draws in large amounts of water, producing both diarrhea and urgency.

Mag glycinate is pretty much the reverse. The mag is bound to a molecule of an amino acid, which is a large molecule, and instead of shooting thru your system, stays in the stomach where it’s slowly digested and absorbed. Glycine tends to be a relaxing, soothing amino, so is additionally more appropriate for sleep and anti-anxiety activity.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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50mg elemental yep. But that's Yippee's dose.
No, actually my dose was 50 mgs of the label amount, which would include excipients. I was way too far gone to try to figure out what amount of elemental mg that meant.

I took 50 mgs of Solgar’s Chelated Magnesium (chelated to glycine and a very small amount of citrate) as frequently as every 35-45 minutes at the start, when I was really bad, and gradually slowed it to 50 gs ever 45 to 60 minutes. On my worst days, I was ingesting as much as 2000 mgs or more of magnesium, with never any unfortunate bowel effect, or any other side effect.

And you’re right. It took a while for me to see results, it was slow acting, as most natural remedies tend to be, but once it got the bit between its teeth, the improvements were remarkable. Patience is the critical factor....
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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Second, this mineral binds to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) receptors.
As far as I know, there is no real evidence that there’s any binding site for Mg2 at any ionotropic or metabolotrpic GABA receptors, but what it does definitely do is block the NMDA receptors, and simultaneously activates the GABAA-gated chloride channels which further adds to its ability to calm the system by blocking the over-production of glutamate. It also blocks the AMPA receptors, which are responsible for trafficking GlutamateA-1 containing AMPA receptors to synapses, stimulated by NMDA receptor activation.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Actually, no.

The reason that mag citrate might be a bad choice for sleep and/or anxiety issues is that citric acid is part of the Krebs or tricarboxylic cycle, whose primary, tho not only, function is to produce energy. It’s central to both the cycles of energy production and biosynthesis, and also fuels the production of ATP udring that process. Additionally, it also produces glumate as part of the Krebs cycle/Citric Acid cycle, which is the last thing someone with either sleep issues for anxiety issues needs more of.

Making it even less attractive is that it’s not particularly bioavailable, and less than 4% of the magnesium ingested in that form is actually absorbed and utilized by the system


And nuh-uh again. The reason that binding mag to citric acid produces rapid-onset diarrhea is because citric acid is a very small molecule, and shoots thru the digestive system like a lightening strike, rapidly landing in the colon, where it draws in large amounts of water, producing both diarrhea and urgency.

Mag glycinate is pretty much the reverse. The mag is bound to a molecule of an amino acid, which is a large molecule, and instead of shooting thru your system, stays in the stomach where it’s slowly digested and absorbed. Glycine tends to be a relaxing, soothing amino, so is additionally more appropriate for sleep and anti-anxiety activity.
Citric acid is absorbed via diffusion so magnesium bound citric acid should absorb well when bound I would think. More citric acid does not give more energy via the kreb cycle because you have more, otherwise it would be banned from athletic competition?
We need to produce more ATP anyway and has nothing to do with sleep other than what energy is available for processes.
You would need a lot of vitamin C to cause diarrhoea so it would be the absortion of magnesium causing it because too much at one time. Too much magnesium affects the heart and muscles so the body expells if it detects too much in the blood, hence diarrhoea.

Lightning strikes and soothing aminos, whats next! Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins which are what our DNA makes so sort of neccesary and not something to avoid or worry about.

All the best!
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

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I'm afeiad the products you've got there include some cheap and nasty versions of magnesium. Which I'm afraid I don't recommend.
I agree. I think the product that @Husband of has ordered could be counter-productive, and uses what I call the minor kitchen sink approach, meaning that it includes things other than mag that have been identified as having sleep-inducing effects. This would include Passion Flower and 5HTP, which is converted from the amino acid tryptophan, after which it’s converted to serotonin. Magnesium is critical to this conversion, as it is to approximately 350 other conversions in our systems .... and a proportion of the magnesium in the compound could be funneled of into that conversion, leaving less magnesium for uptake into your system for other actions.


I tried 5 HTP and Passion Flower, among a lot of others, in my attempt to get any kind of sleep at all, and any relief from the ripping, battering anxiety attacks I was suffering. They both made them worse.

5 HT at a cellular level can increase glutamate-induced excitability in spinal motoneurons, and too much 5-HTP can cause a spike in serotonin levels, resulting in side effects such like anxiety, shivering, and sometimes serious heart problems.

Passion Flower attaches to the same GABAa receptors that benzos use, and can increase the down-regulating of those receptors. It made me want to jump out of my skin and knit it into a tea cozy.

Tart Cherry juice is an age-old calmant and sleep-inducer, working thru its natural melatonin and tryptophan, and taken separately, it could be helpful.

As a footnote, I tend to avoid ANY product that has multiple constituents, for a lot of reasons, including the fact that some of them may work against, potentiate, or eliminate the action of others, but the primary reason is that if I have a negative reaction to it, it’s hard to know which of the multiple factors in it is causing that reaction, and it might put me off of a different constituent, something that, taken separately, could be extremely helpful.

EDIT .... to add tag for @Husband of
 
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hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,053
No, actually my dose was 50 mgs of the label amount, which would include excipients. I was way too far gone to try to figure out what amount of elemental mg that meant.

I've always thought there was a bit of confusion on this the way it's labeled. Is 'magnesium' the same thing as elemental magnesium. Like a bottle of magnesium malate I have which says 3.75g of magnesium malate generating 425mg of magnesium (6 capsules).

You say 50mg of the label amount, but the Solgar label only lists basically 100mg of magnesium per tablet. It doesn't say the amount of magnesium glycine, etc. So I think that's 50mg of elemental magnesium? (although doesn't relate to how much would be absorbed)

Is that correct? If you were having 50mg of the total amount including excipients, then I think that would mean you're splitting the tablet into 10 pieces and I can't see how that would work? An average supplement capsule or tablet is often around 500mg by weight. Obviously varies, but a good guess.

Dr's Best Magnesium Glycinate is 525mg of magnesium lysinate glycinate generating 52.5mg of magnesium. Is that the same as elemental?
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
I agree. I think the product that @Husband has ordered could be counter-productive, and uses what I call the minor kitchen sink approach, meaning that it includes things other than mag that have been identified as having sleep-inducing effects. This would include Passion Flower and 5HTP, which is converted from the amino acid tryptophan, after which it’s converted to serotonin. Magnesium is critical to this conversion, as it is to approximately 350 other conversions in our systems .... and a proportion of the magnesium in the compound could be funneled of into that conversion, leaving less magnesium for uptake into your system for other actions.

I tried 5 HTP and Passion Flower, among a lot of others, in my attempt to get any kind of sleep at all, and any relief from the ripping, battering anxiety attacks I was suffering. They both made them worse.

5 HT at a cellular level can increase glutamate-induced excitability in spinal motoneurons, and too much 5-HTP can cause a spike in serotonin levels, resulting in side effects such like anxiety, shivering, and sometimes serious heart problems.

Passion Flower attaches to the same GABAa receptors that benzos use, and can increase the down-regulating of those receptors. It made me want to jump out of my skin and knit it into a tea cozy.

Tart Cherry juice is an age-old calmant and sleep-inducer, working thru its natural melatonin and tryptophan, and taken separately, it could be helpful.

As a footnote, I tend to avoid ANY product that has multiple constituents, for a lot of reasons, including the fact that some of them may work against, potentiate, or eliminate the action of others, but the primary reason is that if I have a negative reaction to it, it’s hard to know which of the multiple factors in it is causing that reaction, and it might put me off of a different constituent, something that, taken separately, could be extremely helpful.
WOW a lot of stuff does not work for you, maybe a different approach is needed? I feel great bouncing off the walls with energy and focus and getting great sleep, lost loads of fat and gained muscle! Maybe you should look at what I do?