Lion Diet

[GreenEdge]

Respectfully --

Then why is it the highest macronutrient found in human breast milk?
In other words, carbohydrate is higher than protein and fat in breastmilk.

By weight yes, but in energy no (equal). The average macronutrient composition of breastmilk is approximately 1.2 g/dL for protein, 3.6 g/dL for fat, and 7.4 g/dL for lactose (the main carbohydrate in breastmilk).

• Fat provides approximately 9 calories per gram. So 3.6 g/dL for fat x 9 = 32.4 calories/dL.
• Lactose provides approximately 4 calories per gram. So 7.4 g/dL for lactose x 4 = 29.6 calories/dL.

Why would women's bodies waste valuable resources producing a non-essential nutrient in higher amounts than fat and protein, to feed their young?

Because carbohydrates stimulate appetite and promote growth. To increase survival, milk is designed to turn a defenseless baby into fast and agile in the shortest possible time.

Why did low carb wreck my metabolism if this is optimal for everyone? I ate carnivore for 13 months, no sweet flavors no artificial sweeteners no cheating. Yes, I ate plenty of healthy fat and grassfed meat. I followed it strictly. It destroyed my health and I've never recovered from it.

Fasting blood sugar normal before this diet. During and after the diet, I was pre-diabetic. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I would like someone on the low carb camp to address why it was such a disaster for me, and for others, without resorting to "you did it wrong."

I need more information. I read your Long Overdue Intro + Onset Confusion and you said you were "always hungry". That's unusual, which tells me you probably weren't able to access your fat stores, but there could be other reasons.

Were you very skinny or undernourished? What healthy fats did you eat? How much fat? Which meats? And anything else please.

 

[forestglip]

Respectfully --

Then why is it the highest macronutrient found in human breast milk?
In other words, carbohydrate is higher than protein and fat in breastmilk.

Why would women's bodies waste valuable resources producing a non-essential nutrient in higher amounts than fat and protein, to feed their young?

Why did low carb wreck my metabolism if this is optimal for everyone? I ate carnivore for 13 months, no sweet flavors no artificial sweeteners no cheating. Yes, I ate plenty of healthy fat and grassfed meat. I followed it strictly. It destroyed my health and I've never recovered from it.

Fasting blood sugar normal before this diet. During and after the diet, I was pre-diabetic. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I would like someone on the low carb camp to address why it was such a disaster for me, and for others, without resorting to "you did it wrong."

My point of view is that there is something to this. There are so many anecdotes I've seen of amazing recovery from chronic illness. Of course, no one has actually done a good, large scale study on carnivore, and though there are increasing numbers of studies on keto, not many are very long, which might be necessary for benefits in many people.

If that's all I had seen, I'd be in the camp that it's simple: if anyone reduces carbs or cuts out plants, they'll be healthier. But I've also seen a significant number of anecdotes like yours, where a long, well-intentioned, well-informed attempt at the diet didn't work, or harmed.

So my view is we should be digging into this field wholeheartedly. Are there subtypes of people that respond vs. don't? What exactly are the differences between you and someone who it worked for? Could it be that, although you may have followed the "rules" perfectly, there's some unknown but necessary rule to get benefits that is inadvertantly followed by some. For example, maybe it's necessary to eat keto/carnivore during a specific time of day (just a made up example to illustrate), and it's just luck that some people eat during that time but you didn't.

Personally, I seemed able to easily eat keto/carnivore before I got ME/CFS. Now, I keep trying, but I get much worse fatigue even after a month at a barely low carb diet, like 150 grams. Going to zero is like intense drug withdrawal. But I feel like there's some major clue in all the people it does work for.

 

[Hip]

Why do you think not everyone gets ME/CFS from a pathogen they're exposed to? The usual theories people suggest of genetics, mold, other toxic exposures, and/or childhood trauma?

If you take an ME/CFS pathogen such as coxsackievirus B, depending on which organs it infects, it has been linked to type 1 diabetes, dilated cardiomyopathy, heart valve disease, and others. So it may be down to which organs or areas of the body the virus chronically infects as to whether a disease appears, and which disease appears.

 

[Artemisia]

But I feel like there's some major clue in all the people it does work for.

I suspect it works for almost no one after about 5 years except for people in extreme climates like the Inuit where lack of sunlight and cold shifts things to favor, or tolerate rather, low carb.

For the people it does work for in the beginning, they undoubtedly have a strong glucose metabolism, are able to store glycogen in the liver and muscles more efficiently (this is inherently easier for males than females, which is why more women struggle with low carb off the bat). Yes, some women and men do well the first year or two on it, sometimes longer. They usually don't have issues with energy production to start with, but they eventually will on low carb.

I'm not an anomaly in responding horrifically to low carb.

I'm only an anomaly in that I continued on the diet even when it caused serious symptoms for me in the beginning. Most people would listen to their bodies screaming at them for glucose and quit early on.

I had "willpower" LOL, and that's what did me in because I continued the self abuse through diet for over a year.

 

[Hip]

No other animal on the planet becomes obese (no matter how much food is available).

I just found this article on the increasing obesity certain animal populations. The cause is hard to pin down, but they mention adenovirus 36 as a possible factor.

Adenovirus 36 infects fat cells, and causes dysfunction in those cells so that they start storing more fat within the cell.

 

[Artemisia]

By weight yes, but in energy no (equal). The average macronutrient composition of breastmilk is approximately 1.2 g/dL for protein, 3.6 g/dL for fat, and 7.4 g/dL for lactose (the main carbohydrate in breastmilk).

• Fat provides approximately 9 calories per gram. So 3.6 g/dL for fat x 9 = 32.4 calories/dL.
• Lactose provides approximately 4 calories per gram. So 7.4 g/dL for lactose x 4 = 29.6 calories/dL.

Because carbohydrates stimulate appetite and promote growth. To increase survival, milk is designed to turn a defenseless baby into fast and agile in the shortest possible time.

Based on calories, carbohydrates are seven times more heavily represented than protein in breast milk.

Infants have different nutritional requirements than adult humans, but when carbohydrates are clearly that important to young humans, you can't say the carbohydrate is a non essential nutrient for our species.

 

[Artemisia]

I just saw the first post of this thread where GreenEdge asks us not to debate the merits of the Lion Diet here. Oops; I know that's annoying.

Sorry, GreenEdge. I deleted my long comment. Let me know if you want me to move my comments to my thread where I already cautioned everyone about low carb. Maybe that can be a place where people can discuss this:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/be-careful-with-low-carb-keto-diets.91823/

 

[GreenEdge]

I just found this article on the increasing obesity certain animal populations. The cause is hard to pin down, but they mention adenovirus 36 as a possible factor.

Adenovirus 36 infects fat cells, and causes dysfunction in those cells so that they start storing more fat within the cell.

When animals are fed processed food they may develop health issues similar to those seen in humans living in modern societies.

 

[Nige2024]

That evidence from the remains of 24 individuals from two burial sites in the Peruvian Andes dating to between 9,000 and 6,500 years ago, does not predate the development of agriculture about 12,000 years ago. Obviously agriculture became a thing in different populations at different times...

Really good thread GreenEdge

For me all vegetables and fruit have been making me ill, including grains, plus all vegetable oils and seed oils. So through the years due to my health declining I've had to give all these foods up and have ended up eating just meats (that was before the carnivore diet). I've been on the Lion Diet mostly, because even eggs, dairy, pork and chicken do not agree with me, only the ruminant meats seem okay: mainly Beef and Lamb.

I have found I'm not so good with high fat and tried to eat ketogenic carnivore, but I find I do better high protein. Maybe that could be because of the ME/CFS?

Some good information you have posted in this thread. the only problem it looks to be becoming too many posts from people about how we all need to be eating vegetables. I think the thread would be better keeping to Lion diet information and for people who are interested in this

 

[Nige2024]

Edit: And the popular, unproven theory is that carnivore works by eliminating problem chemicals from plants, and not just because it is even less carbs than regular keto.

And the theory with lion over carnivore is that ruminants such as cows, with their multiple stomach digestion, process the plants they eat much more than non-ruminants like pigs or chickens, and leave fewer of these chemicals in the meat.

Also there are more PUFA's, linoleic fatty acids, omega 6 in the non ruminant animals, the fat profiles of ruminant animals even the grain fed ones are better, grass fed is the absolute best though

 

[GreenEdge]

Based on calories, carbohydrates are seven times more heavily represented than protein in breast milk.

Protein is a small component of breast milk. Fat & protein provide nourishment and carbohydrate provides quick energy, which raises insulin to rapidly grow baby. Later on when blood sugar drops, that drives hunger. Breast milk is rich in fats, which are important for brain development.

Infants have different nutritional requirements than adult humans, but when carbohydrates are clearly that important to young humans, you can't say the carbohydrate is a non essential nutrient for our species.

It might be essential for baby, but the lifestyle of the Inuit demonstrates that carbohydrates are not essential for human nutrition. It's a fundamental teaching in the field of nutrition, however it appears that some nutritionists overlook this fact after completing their studies.

 

[GreenEdge]

I just saw the first post of this thread where GreenEdge asks us not to debate the merits of the Lion Diet here. Oops; I know that's annoying.

I didn't like it at first but I thought I'd let it roll and see where it takes us. If it goes too far off-topic a moderator can move posts into a new thread.

Sorry, GreenEdge. I deleted my long comment.

You should have left your comment describing your carnivore diet experience.
There may be something in it that we can all learn from. It would benefit others interested in carnivore or lion diet.

 

[GreenEdge]

Some good information you have posted in this thread. the only problem it looks to be becoming too many posts from people about how we all need to be eating vegetables. I think the thread would be better keeping to Lion diet information and for people who are interested in this

I agree. I have reported posts as "off-topic" but only some were removed. Maybe if others report them too they'll be removed.

 

[GreenEdge]

Sorry, GreenEdge. I deleted my long comment. Let me know if you want me to move my comments to my thread where I already cautioned everyone about low carb. Maybe that can be a place where people can discuss this:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/be-careful-with-low-carb-keto-diets.91823/

I understand the motive. I know from experience that I can gain fat very quickly on this diet. This happens if I eat when not hungry. That tells the body, “I'm eating now because my next meal is uncertain.”

Similarly eating multiple times a day. Usually caused by eating tasty snacks like dairy products, spicy meats or bacon. The issue here is failing to control cravings.

I've found the lion diet (only ruminant meat salt and water) is far more health promoting than carnivore (it even helps control cravings). Also, I've found I feel best when I only eat when truly hungry / 'once a day'.

Another issue with carnivore diet is people who fear (animal) fat will eat too much protein and not enough fat, which can lead to protein poisoning, see this post. Only animal fat contains all essential fat soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K. We eat for nutrients not calories, failing to get essential nutrients drives hunger.

 

[Hip]

A study just published finding that hunter-gatherers in Morocco 15,000 years ago ate mostly plants:

Our research indicated that while the Iberomaurusians did consume some meat, their diet relied heavily on wild plants which they might have stored to provide a food supply through the year.

 

[Apollonia]

How did pre-agriculture humans lose the ability to make vitamin C and yet thrive? A genetic trait can not propagate and prosper if it reduces that individuals ability to thrive.

The theory of evolution is the one thing we can trust. Evolution is my first bullshit filter.

Does meat cure scurvy?

Fresh meat from animals, notably internal organs, contains enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy, and even partly treat it. Scott's 1902 Antarctic expedition used lightly fried seal meat and liver, whereby complete recovery from incipient scurvy was reported to have taken less than two weeks. - Wikipedia

YouTube explanations:
Going Carnivore? What about Vitamin C (6:33)
Vitamin C: Truths, Lies, and How to REALLY Prevent Colds (3:58)
Why You WON'T Become Vitamin C Deficient on a Carnivore Diet | Prof. Bart Kay (7:18)
How can someone be carnivore for 65 years and never get scurvy?

Besides, why should anyone fear scurvy when vitamin C supplements are available everywhere?

Note that these men were eating internal organs also. Lions eat (almost) the whole animal, including all internal organs, and that would means eating whatever partly-digested vegetable matter is present in the gut of the herbivores they are consuming—in fact that's the bit carnivores eat first, sometimes while the animal is still alive. Pre-industrial societies also ate the whole animal. You are not doing this. And if you have to take supplements to live, then by definition your diet is deficient. Further, unless you eat expensive grass-fed, free-range, antibiotic free meat, you will be consuming whatever the animal industry has pumped into their animals to keep them alive and plump them up for consumption.

You keep on providing anecdotes. Are there any on-going prospective trials? Any evidence from e.g. the nurses' longitudinal study? Or just Facebook and Reddit?

 

[Florida Guy]

I'm sorry but I agree with hip and others who say this is nonsense. You need certain vitamins and minerals to live and not all are found in meat. Vit C for example, someone said its found to some degree in organ meats. Those are the parts not normally eaten. Fiber for another example is not found in meat, quercetin, an important nutrient is lacking. There are nutrients which are not vitamins as such but are very helpful to the body including many different flavonoids and resistant starch which feeds the good bacteria you need.

Lions have a totally different digestion and body chemistry. They eat many parts of the animal that we would reject including hide, bones, intestines, and other parts. They have learned over millions of years of evolution to manufacture vitamins they need like C and D. We evolved as omnivores and our system is adapted to a meat plus plant diet and can live on plants alone but not meats alone. Constipation if nothing else from zero fiber

The keto or carnivore diet includes plant sources. To go on a meat only diet may help in the short term by eliminating problematic foods or by fixing a shortage of protein. But humans will eventually die from lack of vitamins and other nutes. Putting a carnivore on a plant diet will kill the poor animal

 

[Hip]

I agree with hip and others who say this is nonsense.

There is ample evidence that a very low carb keto diet can be effective for treating epilepsy. And there is also the low carb / high fat Atkins diet, developed in the 1960s, which can work for weight loss. So high fat / low carb diets can be effective for specific purposes.

However, I don't think there is much evidence for the carnivore diet being the natural human diet. The human digestive metabolism is omnivore, and so humans will eat meat or plant foods, depending on what it locally available.

You do have peoples such at the Inuit who traditionally only ate animal meat and fish, and rarely saw a vegetable.

 

[GreenEdge]

You keep on providing anecdotes. Are there any on-going prospective trials? Any evidence from e.g. the nurses' longitudinal study? Or just Facebook and Reddit?

There's plenty of evidence, eg. 1, 2, YouTube. (if your open to receive it)

@mattie Is there any evidence that we can live on a vegetarian diet? There's evidence that we can't, eg. B12.

Vegetarianism is based on expert opinion.

Why is expert opinion the lowest form of evidence?
A case series or expert opinion is often biased by the author's experience or opinions and there is no control of confounding factors.

Plants are not only deficient in essential nutrients, they contain anti-nutrients. Man can't thrive on plants alone. Read: The Vegan Myth by Lierre Keith or YouTube: Lierre Keith: My 'Healthy' Diet Made Me SICK

Before the current low fat craze hit society in the early 1980's, eating red meat was the staple of many families. See: meat and two veg (British, Ireland, colloquial) A stereotypical standard dinner, with a meat and two kinds of vegetable.

Fiber for another example is not found in meat

I don't eat fiber. Before 1982, I only ate meat; I would have been 11 or 12. It was breakfast cereal sprinkled with sugar that first led me astray... I returned to carnivory 2 years ago and now I'm no longer chronically semi-constipated like I was for the prior two decades with cfs.

Pre-industrial societies also ate the whole animal. You are not doing this.

All essential nutrients are found in meat. I don't have to eat organs or 'whole animal'. There is nothing essential in plants, we can't get from meat alone.

BTW. Vitamin C is found in meat in sufficient quantities. For example liver contains more vitamin C than an apple. Nutrition data says 0 and that originates from 0* as it was originally recorded.
* Assumed zero. - It was never measured!

 

[GreenEdge]

A study just published finding that hunter-gatherers in Morocco 15,000 years ago ate mostly plants:

The headline suggests that Morocco study is an exception to the norm:
Hunter-gatherer diets weren’t always heavy on meat: Morocco study reveals a plant-based diet

and they weren't thriving because they had bad tooth decay:

Earliest evidence for caries and exploitation of starchy plant foods in Pleistocene hunter-gatherers from Morocco​

We present early evidence linking a high prevalence of caries to a reliance on highly cariogenic wild plant foods in Pleistocene hunter-gatherers from North Africa. This evidence predates other high caries populations and the first signs of food production by several thousand years. We infer that increased reliance on wild plants rich in fermentable carbohydrates caused an early shift toward a disease-associated oral microbiota.