Level of Activity and Sleep

[L'engle]

Quite likely things that cause insomnia might also make you feel more 'wired' during the waking hours.
I haven't found that to be very useable energy though. Being sort of wired doesn't help me with brainfog, and the push crash cycle doesn't help me to get more done physically or mentally over time. Maybe others are different. I have more useable energy on 9-10 hours of sleep a night, but it can be hard to get that.

 

[Anchoress]

I soon realised that the prescription codeine /paracetamol pain meds I take make me sleepy and when I add an antihistamine... excellent night;s sleep every night, ... No need to " bother the doctor"! ( English expression!) Whatever works..

 

[Wishful]

I've stumbled upon a treatment for activity-induced insomnia ... effective for me, so since this is ME-related, I have no idea whether it will work for anyone else.

For years now, physical activity past ~2 PM would trigger insomnia typically around 1-4 AM. Cognitive exertion or quickly-digested carbs would also trigger the same insomnia. Recently I added eggs to my diet, and noticed that I didn't get the expected insomnia from physical activity. I've gone for walks of several km in early afternoon and later afternoon without triggering insomnia. Cognitive exertion still does trigger insomnia (proven at 1:20 this morning. *sigh*). I haven't tested afternoon sweets yet.

One medium chicken egg in the evening solves my physical activity -> insomnia problem. I doubt that it's a nutrient, since it doesn't have any that meat lacks. My guess is a hormone or other chemokine. Is it travelling to my brain to fix something, or fixing something in my gut or the connecting nerves? The answer isn't tempting enough to convince me to hold egg yolk in my mouth for 5+ minutes before spitting it out to see whether sublingual absorption works. I also haven't tested whether timing is important. Maybe the effect lasts long enough that it doesn't matter what time of day I eat the egg. I think it worked while I was having them just for breakfast, but I'm not sure.

Maybe this technique will help someone else. Even if it doesn't, it might be another bit of data for figuring out why exertion triggers insomnia.


While checking on hormones in eggs, I came across a couple of interesting bits. While melatonin is important for sleep, it's precursor serotonin is anti-sleep (promotes brain activity). So, boosting serotonin would only help if the conversion to melatonin was working properly. Orexin is also important for sleep, and it's inhibited by sugars, so that might explain my carb-induced insomnia.

The third interesting bit was that sleep isn't one mechanism; it's several redundant mechanisms. Redundancy should be good for reliable sleep, but multiple mechanisms also means multiple ways to malfunction, possibly in ways that overrides the other mechanisms. In short: sleep is complicated. I'm just happy that I found a way to have some more activity options without risking a short-sleep night.

 

[Wishful]

Ooops, got confused (lack of sleep!) about orexin: it's anti-sleep so I don't see why inhibition by sugar in the afternoon would cause insomnia. Rebound effect?

 

[Nord Wolf]

That is a very clear and constant observation of mine as well. The more active I am, the worse my sleep is. My Garmin watch shows high ANS stress levels all night after a more active day. It never changes. Activity = nocturnal ANS stress increase. PEM always causes the same thing, no matter what level PEM is expressing as.
The lower my "Body Battery" is (Garmin watch feature), the worse my night sleep is. The more of a Body Battery drop during the day also equals a poor night sleep.

 

[Wishful]

I had a thought about why eggs might block my insomnia. Embryos need to be held in a sleep or sleep-like state to reduce energy consumption, at least in the earlier stages. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any research that figured out the mechanism. Maybe a hormone or other chemical stored in the yolk? That might be a good research project for finding a new sleep drug.

 

[xploit316]

One medium chicken egg in the evening solves my physical activity -> insomnia problem.

This was helpful. Experimented eating 1 boiled egg with dinner since last 1 week. Definitely finding it easier to fall asleep.

Now to work on a solution to treat my intolerance to Prebiotics.

 

[Wishful]

Glad that the egg helped you. I think of them as all-natural multivitamin/mineral tablets. Just don't try to swallow them whole.

What problem do you get from prebiotics? I recently became intolerant of fermentable dietary fibre; it makes my general ME worse (brainfog, lethargy, aches). To make matters worse, after avoiding fibre for several weeks, I started feeling worse again, so I had 2 tsps of rolled oats, and that reversed that downturn. Now I have to experiment with figuring out the tolerable dosage of oats or other fibre.

 

[xploit316]

What problem do you get from prebiotics? I recently became intolerant of fermentable dietary fibre; it makes my general ME worse (brainfog, lethargy, aches).

Lethargy and Bloating. Was a constant with high beta glucan foods, but now even the ones I could tolerate( Onions, red beans) have become an issue. Maybe I should eliminate them and retest in small amounts after a week or 2. I don't have IBD as confirmed through medical tests.

 

[zuperhero]

hello, exact the same patern with my crashes. my whole cfs started, when i could not sleep after sport activities, the more sick i was, the less intense activity led to insomnia. the fun thing is that when i'm not 'overdoing' i can break all of the 'good sleep rules' f.e. eating before sleep, looking at digital screens before bedtime, sleep in hot&stuffy room, etc and despite all of that i can still sleep well. on the other hand if i have done too much, i can do every good-sleep habit perfectly and i cant sleep anyway.
i've tried melatonin, trazodone, 'anti-histamine' sleep meds and they are not helping at all, i'm a bit afraid of trying benzos, because they are tremendously addictive, but i think they wont work either.

my theory about problem:
activity->body/brain inflamation->high glutamate level in brain->being 'tired but wired'
anyone tried something like amantidine, to decrease levels of glutamate? according to my 'theory' it should help, i will try to test it in near future, but i need to get amantidine

second option, bit similar, beacause it's also about over-reaction of immune system is mcas burst. sometimes when i cant sleep my body itching, 'anti-histamine' meds should be helpful though and im not sure if mcas can be turn on by physical activity.

 

[Wishful]

when i could not sleep after sport activities

For me that started maybe 15 years into my ME. It didn't take much activity, physical or cognitive, to wake me up after a few hours of sleep, unable to sleep more. Unexpectedly, having an egg a day solved that problem. I haven't noticed that effect from any other food, so I think it's more likely a (build a chicken brain) hormone than a nutrient responsible.

 

[GreenEdge]

One medium chicken egg in the evening solves my physical activity -> insomnia problem. I doubt that it's a nutrient, since it doesn't have any that meat lacks.

Actually there is quite a difference:
Eggs contain much more fat than meat so you get the all important fat soluble vitamins (modern diets are lacking): A, D and E.
You also get more: B1 (3X), B2 (2X), B5 (5½X) and Choline (16X).

Eggs are the most complete protein (containing all essential amino acids in optimum proportions) and they are low in carbohydrate, so they are excellent for transitioning to low carb or keto diets.

Cholesterol: No longer a nutrient of concern (2015 edition of US Dietary Guidelines). It has been proven that dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol.

Warning: Egg white is an irritant designed to give any predator an upset stomach, so I recommend you separate the yolk from the white. I use a soup spoon the gently lift the yolk to separate it from the white. I eat the yolk raw and discard the white. You can cook the white and eat it, but it's a poor quality protein of little (if any) nutritional value.

 

[wabi-sabi]

im not sure if mcas can be turn on by physical activity.

I think it can be. Here's an interesting paper I found:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5161583/

The Intriguing Role of Histamine in Exercise Responses​

In humans, histamine is a molecular transducer of physical activity responses, and antihistamines modify > 25% of the genes responding to exercise. Although the upstream signal that results in release of histamine within exercising skeletal muscle remains to be identified, it is likely a fundamental exercise response and not an allergic reaction.
Keywords: endurance exercise, gene expression, histamine, antihistamines, receptors, histamine, molecular transducers of physical activity, recovery from exercise

I have found that an antihistamine-Unisom- helps me sleep a bit after I push too hard. It won't force me to sleep, but it does make sleep possible if I do the sleep hygiene things as well.

 

[Wishful]

so you get the all important fat soluble vitamins

Yes, but those nutrients exist in reasonable quantities in other foods I eat, without having that beneficial effect, so the evidence suggests that it's not a nutrient responsible. Eggs should have hormones and other signalling molecules that won't be found in significant levels in meat, grains or other foods. Maybe eggs are rich in a molecule that keeps the developing embryo in a certain stage of sleep?

 

[GreenEdge]

Yes, but those nutrients exist in reasonable quantities in other foods I eat ...

What other foods? Can you please give some examples of other foods you eat that have significant quantities of vitamins A, D and E.

 

[Wishful]

What other foods?

Meat and dairy? Also I've tried those nutrients as supplements, without noticeable benefit.

 

[GreenEdge]

Also I've tried those nutrients as supplements, without noticeable benefit.

There's a big difference between taking supplements and getting those same nutrients from one of natures recipes - nutrients accurately proportioned & optimized by evolution.

 

[JasonPerth]

Hi, I've been seeing some small improvements recently with my health. What I've also noticed is that the less active I am the better I sleep and the more active I am the poorer and more disturbed the sleep is. Does anyone else see that, and does anyone have a theory on the under lying cause? Thanks.

Im unsure.
Perhaps when i was mild and a 6/10 this may have been the case

But since i deteriorated to a 1/10 when im bedbound most days, no matter how many extra small steps i do in a day would effect my sleep.
As my health deteriorated i just developing Insomnia almost overnight a month later and ive been moving less and less ever since and sleep doesnt change and is still poor?

A Naturopath keeps telling me “your environment is making you sick” “your not getting better because your sleeping too late”

Im starting to think its a scam. My environment has been professionally tested. And with MECFS if your severe and Tired but Wired. Sleeping early is just impossible. And if i do sleep somehow before 10pm. Ill be awake at 12am. And wide awake.

 

[gm286]

@JasonPerth I’ve had the same problem ever since my ME/CFS began seventeen years ago —
a very drawn out, DSPS-to-non-24 type circadian rhythm and it takes a whole lot to sleep early. I don’t naturally sleep early and don’t naturally get up early. If it was there before my ME, which it maybe was, then after my ME it became absolutely debilitating / disabling.

The lowest dose of hydrocortisone, melatonin, and herbal supplements are all musts to even slightly manage it.

 

[hapl808]

But since i deteriorated to a 1/10 when im bedbound most days, no matter how many extra small steps i do in a day would effect my sleep.

Having experienced mild, moderate, and severe - the more severe end of the scale seems like an entirely different illness to me. With what I know today, I'm convinced I could've managed my mild-moderate days and prevented my declines. Sadly, none of what I learned really seems to apply to more severe.