LED red intranasal light therapy

[Chris]

@Scott--I think checking it out with Kahn before trying would be a good idea--if I am right in thinking your home units are LED, suspect that they might not reach that far.

 

[Chris]

@Scott--you should also check with your regular doc--or cardiologist if you already have one--you might be experiencing some form of arrhythmia.

 

[Sasha]

Sorry--forgot to forward this--Kahn's Bioflex outfit is giving a series of webinars, and tomorrow's sounds very interesting--here is the site, I hope:
http://bioflexlaser.com/events/webinars/

I am registered, and look forward to it.

Thanks for this - I've put it in the diary (can easily forget it between now and then!).

 

[Sasha]

Lew Lim is giving a free online talk - got this from Vielight:

Sign up now to learn more about “Photobiomodulation: Healing with Light” by our co-inventor Dr. Lew Lim at the free upcoming online “World Summit of Integrative Medicine 2015” on Sunday, 11th October 2015 at 9:00 PM Eastern Time.
http://worldsummitintegrativemedicine.com/dr-lew-lim/
Dr. Lew Lim’s lecture will also include the sharing of thoughts by some of the lead researchers in the world of low level light therapy (photobiomodulation).

9pm EDT is the middle of the night for me so I hope it will end up on YouTube!

 

[Sasha]

I just registered for today's event (in an hour from now):

http://bioflexlaser.com/events/webinars/

Laser Therapy: Local vs Systemic Effects Explained
Date: Thursday September 24, 2015
Time: 12:15PM - 12:45PM EDT
9:15AM - 9:45AM PDT
10:15AM - 10:45AM MDT
1:15PM - 1:45PM ADT
Speaker: David Kunashko DC
Cost: Complimentary
Register Here

Join Dr. David Kunashko, BioFlex Director of Education and Training, for a discussion about how laser therapy interacts with injured and diseased tissues locally as well as the systemic effects mediated by the circulatory system.

 

[Sasha]

Argh... can't do the webinar without downloading something, which is bound to fail like the last ten billion times I tried to watch a webinar so I'm not going to bother. What is it with everybody? Why can't they just use YouTube?

 

[foggyfroggy]

I hope he answers some questions from you guys in email since he seems to be more interested in answering questions on things like bunions on the air

 

[Chris]

@Sasha--sorry you couldn't (didn't?) connect--I had no trouble. Interesting, but generally a positive recommendation--light can promote healing, sometimes dramatically ( part of a foot about to be amputated due to Peripheral arterial disease-PAD--saved by lasers--this is available as a "Case" on the Bioflex website), can promote angiogenesis--story of Kahn's treatment of threatening atherosclerosis in Doidge would be a limit example--and so on. I will send one or two questions--one about fluence, where I found him not totally clear. Basically aimed at pratitioners, but generally clear and positive. He never talked about laser/LED issues.

Now on to Lew Lim--had a bit of trouble signing up, seems I already signed with them but forgot (memo to self--keep note of things I sign for, and note the password given--now where to put that memo??)

 

[Chris]

One more comment on the webinar--he did mention blood irradiation as one means of spreading local effects to systemic--without, of course, mentioning Lew Lim or Vielight.

 

[Sasha]

I did watch, in the end (after my footstamping!) and was fortunately not looking at the dodgy foot with bones sticking out, etc. that I assume was being shown on the screen (I was in the kitchen, luckily for me).

The only bit that wasn't miles over my head was his statement that 810nm gets better depth penetration than the 633 and that using both gave better (systemic?) effects on skin healing. I don't know if that was a single study and if so, whether it controlled for total energy exposure.

 

[Chris]

@Sasha--I don't believe for one moment that the talk was over your head, but alas I did not catch the study that using both frequencies gave better skin healing. However, the talk will be available on the Bioflex site in about a week, he said, so will check it out again. The bone just stuck out a tiny bit through the skin--it was a mess, but you would not have fainted. It is clear that longer wavelengths give better penetration through tissue. I have seen statements that single wavelength treatment is better than two, but not sure if this is agreed by all. MED-X combine two, the Bioflex device mentioned by Scott includes both, but to be used sequentially. I think I have repaired my connection with the outfit hosting Lew--hope so.

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha--I don't believe for one moment that the talk was over your head,

You overestimate me! It was all a blur of biology.

I have seen statements that single wavelength treatment is better than two, but not sure if this is agreed by all. MED-X combine two, the Bioflex device mentioned by Scott includes both, but to be used sequentially.

That's interesting - I can't remember now why I have the idea that 633 is for blood and 810 is for neurons, unless it's a question of depth of penetration (or maybe differential absorption in blood vs neurons).

Pity that no one is doing an RCT, like they are for GWI.

I think I have repaired my connection with the outfit hosting Lew--hope so.

That's good. I hope that might also get posted up somewhere, for those of us who can't see the live presentation (odd that it's on so late in the evening!).

 

[Chris]

I think the 633 is designed with the shorter wavelength and wider dispersion to be largely absorbed by the blood in the nasal cavity, while the 810 with its pulsed delivery and longer wavelength and perhaps less dispersion aims at penetrating back to the brain through that bone. I think both wavelengths are fairly well absorbed by the mitos--neurons have lots of them, red blood cells I think don't, but there is other stuff in blood, including lymphocytes which I believe do. I would have to revisit key essays by T. Karu and M. Hamblin to get back up to speed on these issues, though. And that won't happen today, because I have just bought a MIO HR monitor to play with.

Yes, it would be great if M. Naeser did a study on us, but she got lots of money to work with Veterans--think NIH will give her a big grant to work with us? At least Lew is taking a shot at getting some research done...though again not with us...yet. However, the honest admission you heard that the 633 may help with fatigue but won't cure is an indication that he is at least keeping some tabs on us. Perhaps if enough of us sign up and buy his devices....

And the timing of that event is just your reward for living in the UK and trying to get ahead.....

 

[Sasha]

Yes, it would be great if M. Naeser did a study on us, but she got lots of money to work with Veterans--think NIH will give her a big grant to work with us?

Nancy Klimas works on both GWI and ME and she's spoken about how she piggybacks her ME stuff onto her GWI grants. I don't think she gets money for the ME stuff but manages to do the ME research within the GWI infrastructure, or something.

At least Lew is taking a shot at getting some research done...though again not with us...yet. However, the honest admission you heard that the 633 may help with fatigue but won't cure is an indication that he is at least keeping some tabs on us. Perhaps if enough of us sign up and buy his devices....

I think that if we seem to be getting good results collectively, we should be urging him to conduct a proper trial, even if it's a small one at first - and putting him in touch with the research community so that it's a well-designed trial with proper patients, proper outcome measures, etc.

And the timing of that event is just your reward for living in the UK and trying to get ahead.....

 

[foggyfroggy]

I wonder about something like this as an alternative to the uber expensive external (not up the nose) type unit? I talked to the rep from Bio-Flex on the phone today and their unit costs $4400.00!

http://shop.vetrolaser.com/Vetrolaser-Infrared-Cold-Laser-Package-With-Goggles-64500-8765432192.htm

 

[ScottTriGuy]

http://shop.vetrolaser.com/Vetrolaser-Infrared-Cold-Laser-Package-With-Goggles-64500-8765432192.htm

Well that's a way better price. I wonder why its 808 nm (as opposed to the 810 nm) and if it matters?

The challenge would be applying it to the back of the head without assistance. My arms would get tired.

Any engineers in the room that can build me a fancy hat?

 

[Chris]

@foggyfroggy, looks like an interesting pair of units, obviously designed for vet use; but how exactly would you use them? They appear to be designed to treat joint and tendon issues, and that kind of stuff. You could certainly use the pencil unit to treat your acupuncture points, and the triple head for use anywhere--but watch out, this is a fairly powerful unit, and has a small tight beam--I would need to do some serious reading before being comfortable using a device like this.

I bought a pair of the MED-X units for very much less than the price of the Bioflex unit that Scott gave the link to, and feel quite comfortable using those. And I still think the two Vielights are doing a good, slow job.

But if you want to give it a try, I think they could be useful, if you do some serious research on how to safely use a unit rated at 100mW but covering a very small area.

 

[foggyfroggy]

Well, applying it to the base of my skull is kind of the attraction as I have a perpetual feeling of pain and inflammation where my skull meets my neck and just above. I think irradiating my nose with it might not be too good for the eyes 0.O

Was thinking that one of the nasal units would be best for mid-brain stimulation. Wondering if the ~800 would be suitable for treating sinusitis?

Also, I wonder if it might help with my sons chronic toe infection, and whether it could be held to the ear and side of the neck to stimulate the vagus nerve? Does anyone know if the 810 is used for wound healing or just the ~600 models??

I wish my brain could process the research a bit better

 

[Chris]

@foggyfroggy, the base of the skull is a key point for both Fred Kahn in his treatment of ME, and for the Polish group that is still treating MS; I guess the aim is partly to irradiate the spinal column, in the belief that the fluid circulating there bathes the brain and will have a wide effect, and partly perhaps to try to reach the brain stem and cerebellum where much of the Autonomic Nervous System is based.

I don't know if the Vielight 810 would be as good as the 633 for treating sinusitis--I would choose the 633 myself, and I think that would be their recommendation--they do have a helpful phone number. But the 810 would be the best bet for mid-brain stimulation. For a chronic toe infection your vet. laser unit would probably be better--I have used my MED-X capsule on a toe problem, and that helped; you could try one of the Vielight units, but that is not what they were designed for. And I just don't know if they could be used for vagus nerve stimulation--it is possible, and I may try it; some people have had luck treating tinnitus by applying an intranasal unit to the ear, and that is possible if you place the nostril clip below the transparent diode housing. I don't know that the 600 models have been used for wound healing--they would seem a bit awkward and underpowered for such use, but they would not hurt. Again, check with the phone no. given as contact on the vielight.com and mediclights.com sites.

 

[foggyfroggy]

@Chris Will do. Thanks so much for sharing your research and for your input.