Just a few sprays of a home-made Dr Brewer antifungal nasal spray for nasal mold triggered significant PEM

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
It's still fringe medicine. It's still without clinical trials and concrete guidelines.
Yes, although we do have Brewer's study on 93% of his CFS patients having mould issues. And, as far as I'm aware, Dr Nathan's method for ridding mould (ie using binders, targeted antifungals/antibiotics, diet, etc) seems to be fairly uncontroversial - most of the doctors in the field I've spoken to about mould seem to refer to some sort of use of these sorts of treatments. Rather I think what is fringe medicine is the idea that mould presents a real problem in many more people than our society realises, and I suspect he's right on that front. (Although also, yes, some of the DNRS type stuff he advocates is very much fringe and controversial.)

Having said that, I think I may just buy his book.
Here's a download link if you don't want to shell out. You can always buy it later if you find it helpful.

I've had yet another setback when I started holding my head upside down when taking nasal sprays/ oils etc - with the plan of getting it up into other areas of the sinuses. Well I think it worked, because as soon as I did this I lost all my hard-won gains. Breathing issues are back, can't tolerate glutathione and I feel sick again. Not the worst I've ever felt, but worse than feeling great like I had been.
I really think these treatments you guys are having issues with must be Herxheimer reactions, it doesn't make much sense that you'd be reacting to the adjuvants as most of them are fairly anodyne. And if it's a Herx, you know you're on the right path, it's just flooding your body with too many toxins for it to be able to handle.

I think I'm gonna try charcoal too as well - I've been completely unable to take antifungals (or anything that actively kills microbes because it seems my body just can't handle any significant increase in the toxin load), but I'm really hopeful that if I start some of these "binders" slowly they might do the trick... I did do bentonite clay for a while in the past and at times it felt like it was doing me a lot of good, but I think in retrospect I was just going to fast with it (as I do with everything) - it just started making me feel like crap again. I feel the key to a lot of this is just to go very gradually, frustrating as that is.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
Here's an interesting section from Dr Nathan's book, regarding binders, antifungals, nasal sprays, biofilm busters, and Brewer's method:

Antifungal Treatment with the Brewer Protocol (with My Modifications)

With the binders up and running, the body is better protected from the sudden release of toxins that may occur when substances that can kill mold are taken. Most of the antifungals that we use work by punching holes in the wall of the mold cell, killing the mold but, in the process, also releasing the contents of that cell, which contains mycotoxins. This is frequently referred to as a “die-off” reaction. This makes the patient vulnerable to the sudden influx of mycotoxins and can (and often does) cause an exacerbation of symptoms identical to those that can be triggered by the use of too much binder. This, too, needs to be respected, and the caveat here is to go very slowly and gently and make sure that the patient remains comfortable throughout the process.

Dr. Brewer begins with an antifungal nasal treatment program. This, too, is individualized. When Dr. Brewer and I started these treatment protocols, we used nasal sprays of amphotericin B, which researchers at the Mayo Clinic had used in their groundbreaking research in 1999. We discovered that although amphotericin B worked, and worked well, for many patients it caused either too intense an inflammatory reaction (making it hard for them to breathe through their congested sinuses or causing pain or nosebleeds) or killed the mold faster than the patients could process the toxins that were released as a result. About 60 percent of patients can handle amphotericin B well; the rest cannot. We also discovered that if we combined the nasal spray of amphotericin B with a nasal spray of EDTA, which is an excellent material used to dissolve biofilm (see the next page), congestion was magnified and made treatment too difficult for many patients to tolerate.

It turns out that how patients handle the binders is a good guide to how they will handle the nasal and/or oral treatments. Those with stronger constitutions who can take all the binders we give them at full dosages usually do well with an amphotericin B nasal spray. Those who can barely handle even minute amounts of binder require the gentlest treatment: nystatin nasal spray. This applies almost universally to my sensitive patients, for whom the use of nystatin nasal spray is our go-to first treatment. Those patients who fall somewhere in between often do well with a 2 percent ketoconazole nasal spray or a 1 percent itraconazole nasal spray. Individuals vary, of course, and we have to carefully monitor their responses to ensure that the treatment is being handled comfortably. No worsening or exacerbation of symptoms is acceptable, as toxins will accumulate and the patients will get worse if we ignore such a response.

The longer they put up with any degree of worsening, the longer it will take for their bodies to right themselves when we stop the irritating treatment.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
OK so I just started on some of the binders, specifically Activated Charcoal and some Zeolite Clay, and it's already clearly having an effect - nothing major but just a noticeable worsening in the back aches and some mild headaches, and that was after just 1 capsule of each (so around 250mg of Charcoal and probably the same for the Zeolite). But it's like "good back aches" if that makes sense? It's almost pleasant, like my body's telling me it's something I need. Difficult to explain. Also it's interesting to me that it already seems to be giving me a mild Herx off of such a tiny dose but I guess that shows how much detoxing I have to do. And if I'm getting that from just binders I dread to think what any of the biofilm-busters or anti-fungal stuff would do.

The temptation is to just persevere through at this dose but following Dr Nathan's recommendations I think I should probably reduce to a level I can tolerate without any reaction. Another thing I'm doing is taking stool softeners, as I've read it's important if you're detoxing to have regular bowel movements as if you're constipated the body will just reabsorb much of the toxins from the colon.

Regardless I'm glad I finally seem to be able to try and do something to address the mould issue. There are some other binders too that I might try, for now I've settled on these because Charcoal apparently binds well to Ochratoxin, which my urine Mycotoxin test showed I had very high levels of, and Zeolite Clay is one of Dr Nathan's earliest things he adds (all this I've gleaned from his book). There are also others that he uses, notably some medications that are often prescribed for cholesterol such as Welchol and Cholestyramine, but these you'd need a prescription for. I may try and source them online at a later date though.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
454
Likes
1,091
OK so I just started on some of the binders, specifically Activated Charcoal and some Zeolite Clay, and it's already clearly having an effect - nothing major but just a noticeable worsening in the back aches and some mild headaches, and that was after just 1 capsule of each (so around 250mg of Charcoal and probably the same for the Zeolite). But it's like "good back aches" if that makes sense? It's almost pleasant, like my body's telling me it's something I need. Difficult to explain. Also it's interesting to me that it already seems to be giving me a mild Herx off of such a tiny dose but I guess that shows how much detoxing I have to do. And if I'm getting that from just binders I dread to think what any of the biofilm-busters or anti-fungal stuff would do.

The temptation is to just persevere through at this dose but following Dr Nathan's recommendations I think I should probably reduce to a level I can tolerate without any reaction. Another thing I'm doing is taking stool softeners, as I've read it's important if you're detoxing to have regular bowel movements as if you're constipated the body will just reabsorb much of the toxins from the colon.

Regardless I'm glad I finally seem to be able to try and do something to address the mould issue. There are some other binders too that I might try, for now I've settled on these because Charcoal apparently binds well to Ochratoxin, which my urine Mycotoxin test showed I had very high levels of, and Zeolite Clay is one of Dr Nathan's earliest things he adds (all this I've gleaned from his book). There are also others that he uses, notably some medications that are often prescribed for cholesterol such as Welchol and Cholestyramine, but these you'd need a prescription for. I may try and source them online at a later date though.
Is zeolite clay the same as Bentonite clay? I was thinking of getting some of the latter. But maybe it's the former I should get. You're in UK right? Where did you source your zeolite clay?

Good to have you on board the mould train. It's a roller coaster. Are you thinking of trying glutathione or anything? This for me is very beneficial. It can make me feel amazing when I'm tolerating it. I will be tolerating it fine and then I'll take something antifungal up my nose and then I won't tolerate it for a few days. Then I do again. It's weird. But it's what brings me back to normal when I crash. I can have a weird reaction even when it helps, where I feel awful for about an hour and then feel good after. This is usually if I up the dose significantly, although I never really take much of it.

I've bought Nathan's book, it should be here in the next couple of days. Great to have somebody else on board with this. I've a few recommendations for nasal sprays etc if you're ever thinking about it.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
Is zeolite clay the same as Bentonite clay? I was thinking of getting some of the latter. But maybe it's the former I should get. You're in UK right? Where did you source your zeolite clay?
I think they're probably very similar and do the same thing, but Dr Nathan mentions Bentonite whereas I already had some Zeolite, so I just went out and got Bentonite as well just to be safe.

And yep I'm in the UK, both the Zeolite and Bentonite I got online from a company called "Zeolith Med" - I think they are a German company but they are who one of my former doctors recommended, so again I just went with them. They seem to be pretty well regarded.

Good to have you on board the mould train. It's a roller coaster. Are you thinking of trying glutathione or anything?
Yeh so Glutathione for me is a weird one - I tried it last year and it seemed to do me some good, although I could only take it in tiny tiny amounts or else it would trigger a reaction. I never knew why it was benefiting me, but now with this mould hypothesis it could well have been that it was just helping my body to detox from mould? I may look to start it again at some later date but for now I think I'm just gonna stick to the Nathan plan, and then maybe look for a UK based mould doctor to hold my hand through the process, although I'm not sure how easy one will be to find.

But yeh, my experience with it sounds similar to yours, it could make me feel quite a lot better but then if I got the dose wrong it could go really badly.

I've bought Nathan's book, it should be here in the next couple of days. Great to have somebody else on board with this. I've a few recommendations for nasal sprays etc if you're ever thinking about it.
Great stuff, yeh I'm interested to see how this all goes.
 
Messages
279
Likes
561
I did a 0.5 % povidone iodine saline sinus rinse on Thursday evening.. Had already been a bit worn out from having my covid vax and a few viruses in the weeks (2 months really) prior.

It triggered the worst crash I've had in 18 months.. Been having near adrenal crises every morning since Saturday, having to dose my pregnenolone much higher and taking hydrocortisone at the moment to try and get it under control.. Feeling horrid.

Hopefully I don't get set back permanently. How long did you guys find these flares lasted? I did not see this coming at all..

Could it just be nasal bacteria causing a herx or does it seem like mould would be more likely.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
454
Likes
1,091
I did a 0.5 % povidone iodine saline sinus rinse on Thursday evening.. Had already been a bit worn out from having my covid vax and a few viruses in the weeks (2 months really) prior.

It triggered the worst crash I've had in 18 months.. Been having near adrenal crises every morning since Saturday, having to dose my pregnenolone much higher and taking hydrocortisone at the moment to try and get it under control.. Feeling horrid.

Hopefully I don't get set back permanently. How long did you guys find these flares lasted? I did not see this coming at all..

Could it just be nasal bacteria causing a herx or does it seem like mould would be more likely.
Sorry to hear you're going through such a severe crash, GlassCannon, I really am.

Unfortunately it's very difficult to give a timeframe. Initially when I started nasal antifungals my crashes lasted longer. They became shorter as I went on a bit. But because they never stopped making me feel like crap I stopped them to try and focus on getting detox working properly first.

The positive news is that I've felt like I'd permanently made myself worse doing what you did and I've come out the other end back to the baseline I'm willing to accept. So, keep that in mind as you go through this extra special hell.

If it's mold, then all the toxic stuff in the mold cells you've just killed have gone into the bloodstream and likely into cells. Some will get excreted through urine, some through the liver, bile and then intestines, but the latter has the potential to circulate it back into the blood and cells.

The book "toxic" by Neil Nathan is interesting. @hb8847 might have a link to a pdf somewhere in their history, possibly even in this thread. He says the goal is to be able to kill these cells and have a good enough detox going that the reaction is zero, or at least minimal. Binders, he says, are the first port of call. I've been doing these along with hb8847 and even these cause a bad reaction - possible evidence that the toxins in our nose are also in our gut. So, we have to go slower. Apparently once you build these up you start feeling better and are able to handle killing the bad guys a lot easier.

What helps me get back to baseline is glutathione. A word of caution, however, it can cause effects too. It gives me air hunger sometimes. I've had to build it up from tiny amounts, but it absolutely saves me at times. This is not the experience of everybody, but the theory goes that glutathione gets mycotoxins out of the cells. If you've got a backlog of recirculation happening in the gut, then this just mobilises them with nowhere to go and cause symptoms because you've just disturbed the toxins rather than processed them effectively. Glutathione is also important for mopping up reactive oxygen species (created in phase I liver detox) and also in phase II liver detox. So, it seems a very important compound in many respects for dealing with these issues.

A spoonful of cumin also makes me feel great, but the effect is quite short-lived. If I decide I'm taking cumin, I make 100 capsules at a time. 1 dose is 5 capsules. I can take 4 or 5 doses a day to maintain feeling well. This gets tiresome. But maybe worth a try, I've never noticed a bad effect from cumin.

I have had crashes where the effects of the things which usually make me feel better are limited. Usually they take effect immediately, but some crashes are so bad, I've to keep at them for a few days before it dies down.

I think this is evidence of where your (and my) problems are stemming from. Clearly, the toxins capable of making us feel like this are in our nasal passages (and if you crash from binders like I've done recently, in the gut - but this is consistent with the theory that they began in the nose).

Take home message - those who have gone before got better eventually, even if it seems like you've worsened the severity of your illness forever. Try and stay positive.
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
Great comment @seamyb , and yep I echo the sentiments - sorry you're feeling rough @GlassCannonLife . If it helps, whenever I've had a Herx in the past I've always eventually returned to some baseline, sometimes even a bit better, but it tends to take a while (going through one now). Maybe a week or two at most.

Here's a PDF link to the Neil Nathan book. He seems to be well regarded and explains things well, I'd recommend skipping forward to the mould section first as he considers it the most common cause of illness in his patients (and your reaction to the iodine could suggest you might have one if it hasn't already been confirmed). Like Seamy says we've both been using binders, if you're reacting badly to the iodine they might be worth considering. Here's the thread where we've been discussing it.

Supposedly binders work by "binding" to the toxins in the bile in your gut, preventing them from being reabsorbed back into the body in the colon. Eventually this should allow your body to detoxify itself, at which point you could start to add things like iodine, antifungals and biofilm nasal sprays to directly kill the mould without the toxins flooding your system, although Nathan reports patients having gotten better off small amounts of binders alone.

Also according to Nathan, Herx reactions are not helpful to the recovery and you want to be taking an amount your body can handle without significantly worsening, and then gradually building up. The binders he generally recommends to start with are S Boullardi and then Bentonite clay, I myself am working on the Bentonite having had problems with Charcoal.

Best of luck and hope you get better soon.
 
Last edited:
Messages
279
Likes
561
Great comment @seamyb , and yep I echo the sentiments - sorry you're feeling rough @GlassCannonLife . If it helps, whenever I've had a Herx in the past I've always eventually returned to some baseline, sometimes even a bit better, but it tends to take a while (going through one now). Maybe a week or two at most.

Here's a PDF link to the Neil Nathan book. He seems to be well regarded and explains things well, I'd recommend skipping forward to the mould section first as he considers it the most common cause of illness in his patients (and your reaction to the iodine could suggest you might have one if it hasn't already been confirmed). Like Seamy says we've both been using binders, if you're reacting badly to the iodine they might be worth considering. Here's the thread where we've been discussing it.

Supposedly binders work by "binding" to the toxins in the bile in your gut, preventing them from being reabsorbed back into the body in the colon. Eventually this should allow your body to detoxify itself, at which point you could start to add things like iodine, antifungals and biofilm nasal sprays to directly kill the mould without the toxins flooding your system, although Nathan reports patients having gotten better off small amounts of binders alone.

Also according to Nathan, Herx reactions are not helpful to the recovery and you want to be taking an amount your body can handle without significantly worsening, and then gradually building up. The binders he generally recommends to start with are S Boullardi and then Bentonite clay, I myself am working on the Bentonite having had problems with Charcoal.

Best of luck and hope you get better soon.
Thanks, that's very helpful. I'll have a look into all of that.
 

Lieselotte

Senior Member
Messages
189
Likes
399
Location
Orange County, CA
So, I re-did my nasal swab test:
  • Staph present in large amounts that is resistant to a few antibiotics.
  • Penicillium present in small amounts.
  • The Cladosporium in the last test is gone apparently as it did not come up again. Either I got rid of it with the silver spray plus nasal rinsing or these things are not that accurate...
So my doc prescribed some Beg-i nasal spray: Mupirocin, gentamycin, EDTA, Itraconizole. Just started taking it 2 days ago. I have a sinus headache today, so not really sure if it's because of that. I'm supposed to do this spray for 3 months and then see how I'm doing.

I've been taking charcoal for a while, and have no problem with it. I only take it once a day, but should do more. I have a problem with timing food/my many supplements/charcoal :confused:
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
So I'm thinking of giving a nasal spray a go although I'm not really sure where to begin. I'm currently addressing my mould issue on my own (as in, not with a doctor) because I'm following Neil Nathan's protocol and therefore can't get anything on prescription.

Does anyone know if it's possible to buy any of these products from any of the online abroad pharmacies people recommend, or do you have to go about making your own nasal sprays? And is that as complicated as it sounds? I worry a bit about getting the quantities wrong etc.

Perhaps it's better to reach out to mould doctors, if anyone knows any good ones in the UK (and ideally who follow something similar to the Nathan protocol with binders and nasal sprays) please do let me know.
 

Lieselotte

Senior Member
Messages
189
Likes
399
Location
Orange County, CA
FYI this was a good summary of mold/CIRS Treatment and includes MARCoNS treatment.
https://richmondfunctionalmedicine.com/mold-related-biotoxin-illness-part4/

Also, I had no idea and found interesting that the BEG spray had changed. I guess maybe my doctor is unaware too as he prescribed the old version:
Traditionally, this was BEG (0.2% Bactroban, 1% EDTA and 0.5% Gentamycin) sprayed twice in each nostril three time daily for 6 weeks. However, early in 2018 this combination was changed to EDTA 1% with colloidal silver 25ppm in Mucolox 15%.

@hb8847 it might not be too hard to mix some EDTA into some colloidal silver. Should help against bacteria and fungus.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
454
Likes
1,091
I made my own EDTA spray using Hip's guidelines. Herxed like hell.

Switched to using xlear rescue and normal xlear - these have xylitol, grapeseed extract and the former has eucalyptus oil. All known biofilm busters and antifungals. If herx is a measure of effectiveness, these are just as effective.

But when I get back to treating with antifungals I'm going to focus on thyme oil for a bit, both diffused and in a nasal spray which I will make myself. With thyme oil, I notice a worsening after a few hours, but unlike any other oil or nasal spray I've tried, this subsides after about an hour and I feel pretty good. This I'm attributing to the suppression of mycotoxin production which thyme oil apparently does.

I had a very good period just using diffused thyme oil. I then began to wonder about getting stuff further up my sinuses and so used the xlear rescue while holding my head upside down... I began herxing again and paused the nasal stuff to try binders.

I'm very interested in trying thyme oil again, it was maybe a blunder stopping it. Imagine you could kill the mold and not herx! None of the prescription antifungals or biofilm busters do this (thyme oil is both these things).
 

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
382
Likes
612
Location
United Kingdom
I made my own EDTA spray using Hip's guidelines. Herxed like hell.
Interesting. Yes I imagine I'd Herx like crazy given I'm already reacting to the binders, but I'm also curious as to what effect the nasal sprays would have, as to my mind a Herx would all but confirm the presence of mould in my airwaves... On the other hand I already have the positive mycotoxin test results, and if the Nasal spray Herx is too bad I don't wanna set myself back too much.

I'm very interested in trying thyme oil again, it was maybe a blunder stopping it. Imagine you could kill the mold and not herx! None of the prescription antifungals or biofilm busters do this (thyme oil is both these things).
Yeh that would seem to be the holy grail. Interesting what you say about thyme oil suppressing mycotoxin production. Do you mean it's both an antifungal and a biofilm buster, AND it prevents mycotoxin release? That almost sounds too good to be true... I also wonder why it isn't mentioned in any of these protocols, Brewer & Nathan's etc. Where did you come across it?
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
454
Likes
1,091
The paper in this post is what I went by in choosing essential oils. The table I uploaded to the post gives a summary of all the info but the paper is interesting too. Note that thymol is a constituent of thyme oil and that the table sometimes references the oil and sometimes the component compound where it has been isolated as the cause of the oil having that property.

Regarding herxing on antinasal stuff, go easy, obviously, but going easy seemed a lot easier with this than it did the binders. Your mileage may vary.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
454
Likes
1,091
So you can see in that table that thyme (thymus) and its component thymol are in a lot of categories, including the main ones biofilm buster, antufungal and suppression of mycotoxins. The oils are in italics and the constituent compounds are in normal font.