Jennifer Brea: I have craniocervical and atlantoaxial instability

frozenborderline

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I woke this morning and notice you've already done a great job overnight in adding a Pathogens and collagen degradation section to the collagen MEpedia page!

I'll just post here some of the refs and info I have collected about connective-tissue / extracellular matrix destroying enzymes, in case you find these useful.


Some basic definitions

➤ Extracellular matrix (ECM) — exists in the space between the cells, and acts as scaffolding that holds the individual cells together, creating a structured tissue. This matrix consists of proteins such as collagen (the most abundant), elastin (the next most abundant), fibronectin, laminin and others.

Connective tissue — one of the 4 basic types of tissue in the body (the other 3 are epithelial tissue, muscle tissue and nervous tissue). Connective tissue is the scaffolding that structurally supports and binds organs and tissues. All 4 basic tissue types possess an extracellular matrix, but the extracellular matrix is particularly rich in connective tissue.

Matrix metalloproteinases (MMP) — are a family of enzymes which break down the collagen, elastin, etc proteins of the extracellular matrix.

MMPs are secreted by the body for various purposes, such as during the growth of new blood vessels, or during wound healing and tissue repair. MMPs are also secreted by the immune system in order to "hack a path" through the tissue extracellular matrix to allow immune cells in the bloodstream to travel into these tissues to fight an infection (ref: 1). But bacteria also secrete MMPs for the same purpose: to hack a path through in the host tissue, allowing the bacterial infection to invade and spread into the host.

There are around two dozen MMPs, and each one targets a specific set of ECM proteins like collagen, elastin, etc. There is a nice list of MMPs here, also a list on Wikipedia here.

Quest and Labcorp both offer tests for blood MMP-9 levels.

Neutrophil elastase (also called human leukocyte elastase, or HLE) — is another enzyme which breaks down elastin, collagen, etc. It's not considered part of the MMP family as far as I am aware.

Neutrophil elastase was found elevated in ME/CFS by Kenny De Meirleir. RED Labs offer a test for elastase levels in ME/CFS patients.

KDM thought that this neutrophil elastase was responsible for cleaving RNase L, and creating the chopped up low molecular weight RNase L that has been found in ME/CFS (see KDM's book). I am not sure if this line of investigation still holds currency.

This 2012 study by Dr Maes also found polymorphonuclear leukocyte elastase (= neutrophil elastase) elevated in ME/CFS.

Tissue inhibitors of metalloproteinases (TIMP) — the enzyme activity of the MMPs is inhibited when TIMP is secreted. Thus when TIMP levels are higher, the extracellular matrix-destructive effect of MMP enzymes is reduced. There are four of these inhibitors: TIMP-1 to TIMP-4.



Effect of enterovirus infection on MMP levels

Acute coxsackievirus B3 myocarditis in mice has been shown to cause elevated MMP-2 and MMP-9 in one study; and elevated MMP-2, MMP-9 and MMP-12 in another study.

Chronic coxsackievirus B3 myocarditis in mice has been shown to cause elevated MMP-2 and MMP-3 in one study (at the 28 days stage, which is the chronic infection stage).

Acute coxsackievirus B4 infection of the pancreas in mice led to elevated MMP-9 (mainly originating from macrophages and neutrophils), one study found.



Effects of manipulating of MMP levels in enterovirus infection

In acute coxsackievirus B3 myocarditis in mice, one 2008 study found that reducing MMP-9 levels (by gene knockout) led to worsened myocardial injury. So MMP-9 appears to have a protective effect against this virus, at least in acute infection.

However, the chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infection found in ME/CFS (and chronic myocarditis) however are a different beast to acute infection, and so the protective effect of MMP-9 may not necessarily apply in chronic enterovirus infection.

A 2003 study found MMP-9 (gelatinase B) cleaves interferon beta, destroying its antiviral effect. So in this case MMP-9 is weakening the immune response.

A 2014 study found that MMP-12 (macrophage elastase) limits the antiviral immune response by destroying the interferon alpha receptor 2 binding site. This suggest that inhibiting MMP-12 may help to control coxsackievirus B infection. Though currently no MMP-12 inhibitor drugs are clinically available.



Inhibitors of MMPs

This study on multiple sclerosis patients found MMP-9 was decreased by 58% after 3 months of omega 3 fish oil supplementation at 9.6 grams per day.

This rat study found alpha lipoic acid reduced MMP-2 and MMP-9 during ischemia-reperfusion injury.

This rat study found the angiotensin II receptor blocker drug losartan and the statin drug simvastatin increased TIMP-1 and TIMP-2 (thereby inhibiting the effects of MMPs).

This human study found losartan decreased MMP-2 and MMP-9.

This study found the angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor captopril inhibits serum MMP-9 in patients with Kawasaki disease.

Dr Ritchie Shoemaker uses a low amylose diet and high-dose fish oil to treat elevated MMP-9.

This study found glucosamine sulfate inhibits MMP-2 and MMP-9 expressions in human fibrosarcoma cells, probably explaining why glucosamine is effective in relieving the symptoms of osteoarthritis.

This study found azithromycin decreases MMP-9 expression in the airways of lung transplant recipients.

This in vitro study found that doxycycline inhibited MMP-13 and MMP-8 (at concentrations that were near the concentrations achieved in the serum after oral dosing).

This in vitro study found magnesium reduces MMP-2, suggesting that the beneficial effect of magnesium supplementation on the cardiac disease may be due, at least in part, to the inhibitory effect on MMPs.


There are many other supplements that inhibit MMPs in vitro: see here; but most of these supplement probably will not work in vivo when you take them orally.

(This is because it is easy to produce effects in vitro in a cell line, because you can use high concentrations of the compound. But those high concentration are often not obtainable in vivo for various reasons, such as the maximum safe oral dose, or poor bioavailability. So you need to find studies that show a drug or supplement works in vivo in humans or animals).
Hi hip, this topic is important enough that I think you should start a new thread all on this. On viruses and mmps, hormones, and collagen
 

Hip

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Hi hip, this topic is important enough that I think you should start a new thread all on this. On viruses and mmps, hormones, and collagen

I may do that. At the moment I am still leaning the basics of this CCI/AAI business. By the way I just now added this study on rabbits to the post you quoted, which found that MMP-9 plays an important role in creating syringomyelia in the spine, and the study suggests that the MMP-9 inhibitor doxycycline may be used to prevent and treat syringomyelia.

But I could not find any studies linking MMP-9 or other MMPs to CCI/AAI or Chiari.
 

frozenborderline

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I may do that. At the moment I am still leaning the basics of this CCI/AAI business. By the way I just now added this study on rabbits to the post you quoted, which found that MMP-9 plays an important role in creating syringomyelia in the spine, and the study suggests that the MMP-9 inhibitor doxycycline may be used to prevent and treat syringomyelia.

But I could not find any studies linking MMP-9 or other MMPs to CCI/AAI or Chiari.
I happen to have a bunch of doxy sitting around from when I had lyme. Is it true that taking oral abx withrour clear signs of infection can cause abx resistance in a person or is this more a population wide risk ? I imagine not as bad if u r taking low doses too? I took it at 200 mg for acute lyme infection, 20 mg doesn’t sound hard to swallow at all
 

Hip

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I happen to have a bunch of doxy sitting around from when I had lyme.

Doxycycline 20 mg is sold as Periostat to inhibit periodontal disease, which is also driven by MMPs. So people with peritonitis may be taking these low 20 mg doxycycline doses long-term.

Be careful with doxycycline if it has passed its expiry date. While most drugs are perfectly fine even years after their expiry (according to a study I read about), doxycycline slowly degrades into a toxic breakdown product, so is the one drug that should be discarded at expiry.



Losartan is the drug used in the controversial Marshall protocol, right ?

Losartan is in the same ARB drug class as the Marshall Protocol drug olmesartan. Not sure if olmesartan might also inhibit MMPs.
 

frozenborderline

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Doxycycline 20 mg is sold as Periostat to inhibit periodontal disease, which is also driven by MMPs. So people with peritonitis may be taking these low 20 mg doxycycline doses long-term.

Be careful with doxycycline if it has passed its expiry date. While most drugs are perfectly fine even years after their expiry (according to a study I read about), doxycycline slowly degrades into a toxic breakdown product, so is the one drug that should be discarded at expiry.





Losartan is in the same ARB drug class as the Marshall Protocol drug olmesartan. Not sure if olmesartan might also inhibit MMPs.
Ah good warning about the expired doxy. I always figured expiration warnings on pills were bullshit :/
 

frozenborderline

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One possible link between weakened connective tissues and the viruses in ME/CFS that infection can up-regulate production of connective-tissue degrading enzymes. Coxsackievirus B for example ramps up production of various matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), which is a whole family of enzymes that destroy connective tissue proteins like collagen, elastin and gelatin.

Coxsackievirus B infection increases the enzymes MMP-2, MMP-3, MMP-8, MMP-9 and MMP-12. These enzymes are secreted as part of the immune response.


I had my own experience of probable increases in connective-tissue degrading enzymes after catching my virus: about 12 to 18 months after I caught the Coxsackie B4 virus which triggered my ME/CFS, I developed a sudden-onset crêpe paper-like wrinkling of the skin all over my body, but most prominently on the top of my hand. Here is a picture I took years ago of these sudden-onset fine wrinkles on my hand:

Sudden-onset crêpe paper-like fine wrinkling on my hand,
caused by my CVB4 viral infection

View attachment 30055

Some friends and family who caught the same virus as me also developed these crêpe paper wrinkles (except those under 30). The wrinkles look very similar to a disease called mid-dermal elastolysis, which is caused by loss of elastin in the mid-dermis layer of the skin. So my hunch is that elastin is being degraded in my skin as a result of MMP enzymes induced by the virus.

I also developed sudden-onset receding gums (periodontitis) after catching this virus, which is in part caused by MMP enzymes. Periodontitis is treated with low-dose doxycycline 20 mg daily, which inhibits various MMPs.

I have also heard occasional stories of ME/CFS patients losing their fingerprints; possibly that is also due to connective-tissue degradation. And in Dr Ritchie Shoemaker's chronic inflammatory response syndrome(CIRS), MMP-9 is often high (he treats high MMP-9 with a low amylose diet and high dose fish oil).
Think I have similar issue. Did you ever try oxymatrine?
 

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roller

wiggle jiggle
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Has Jen Brea provided any new updates on her progress since her procedure? Just curious. I know she posted photos the day of surgery but would love to know how it is working out for her if she has provided a public update since then. Thanks.

i would also like to know, how the time after the surgery is going.

the last entry on her facebook seems 29-nov-2018, the day after the operation. she replied to comments later, about a donation event or so.
she feels and looks good.
on her website i found nothing related. on her twitter is more, maybe until january 6 2019.

did she have two surgeries, or am i misreading this ?
she talks about swelling on TWO surgical sites?

the last twitter message related to the OP.

@jenbrea
18. Dez. 2018
More than anything, I feel like a person who had two major, 8-hr surgeries one week apart. There is swelling at both surgical sites. I am on aggressive pain management. It’s going to take time to heal so I will give it that time.

18. Dez. 2018
I did have a complete remission of my POTS for 2 weeks (it’s back again).

16. Dez. 2018
I feel like a badass bionic superhero with a secret, invisible wheelchair in my neck

I love my craniocervical fusion.

I love that I can taking breathing for granted again. Every time I wake up in the middle of the night for a second (breathing). Got lost in thought for a second there. (Still breathing.)

11. Dez. 2018
It is a scary thing to go to sleep and wake up with a metal contraption screwed into your skull that you will always feel, that can never be undone, that becomes a permanent part of your body that will still be there long after you are dust.

(hope i didnt copy other ppls twitter messages, missed something or did something wrong with dates etc, im not used to twitter):
 
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StarChild56

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Think I have similar issue. Did you ever try oxymatrine?
I noticed my hands developing weird crepe like skin a few years ago and had no idea why. I am attaching photos, would you mind telling me if they seem similar to your crepe like skin?
 

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Hip

Senior Member
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18,135
I noticed my hands developing weird crepe like skin a few years ago and had no idea why. I am attaching photos, would you mind telling me if they seem similar to your crepe like skin?

Yes, your hand pictures look very similar to mine. Some pictures of the crêpe paper wrinkles on my hand given at the very bottom of this page of my website. As that page explains, I think these particular type of skin wrinkles are likely due to a loss of elastin (rather than collagen) from the skin.

Many people who caught my virus also developed these same wrinkles (although they did not appear in people under the age of around 30). So it is clear that this virus I caught (which blood tests indicate might be coxsackievirus B4) does affect connective tissue, and probably elastin in particular.
 

StarChild56

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1,405
Yes, your hand pictures look very similar to mine. Some pictures of the crêpe paper wrinkles on my hand given at the very bottom of this page of my website. As that page explains, I think these particular type of skin wrinkles are likely due to a loss of elastin (rather than collagen) from the skin.

Many people who caught my virus also developed these same wrinkles (although they did not appear in people under the age of around 30). So it is clear that this virus I caught (which blood tests indicate might be coxsackievirus B4) does affect connective tissue, and probably elastin in particular.

I really appreciate you looking at the photos and answering my question, thank you.

I have no idea what this means and my brain fog is so bad it is hard for me to even read things over a paragraph but I will try to absorb info over time.

I've done tons of blood tests and I don't remember being positive for coxsackievirus B4 but I will look through the results when I feel better.

Thank you again.
 

Hip

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18,135
I've done tons of blood tests and I don't remember being positive for coxsackievirus B4 but I will look through the results when I feel better.

The only lab in the US which offers a test sensitive enough to detect the chronic coxsackievirus B infections found in ME/CFS is ARUP Lab (the lab Dr Chia uses). If your coxsackievirus B antibodies were not tested at ARUP, then unfortunately you can really rely on your results being accurate.



I have no idea what this means and my brain fog is so bad it is hard for me to even read things over a paragraph but I will try to absorb info over time.

In short: a chronic infection may stimulate the production of certain enzymes (like MMP-9 or elastase) which may erode away the elastin and collagen in your skin, leading to wrinkles. That's what I think may be happening.
 

StarChild56

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Messages
1,405
The only lab in the US which offers a test sensitive enough to detect the chronic coxsackievirus B infections found in ME/CFS is ARUP Lab (the lab Dr Chia uses). If your coxsackievirus B antibodies were not tested at ARUP, then unfortunately you can really rely on your results being accurate.
Ah, okay. Then I have not been tested.

In short: a chronic infection may stimulate the production of certain enzymes (like MMP-9 or elastase) which may erode away the elastin and collagen in your skin, leading to wrinkles. That's what I think may be happening.
That is a great explanation, very helpful, thank you.

I don't suppose there is an easy way to or even a proven way to rid yourself of this infection, is there?
 

Hip

Senior Member
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18,135
I don't suppose there is an easy way to or even a proven way to rid yourself of this infection, is there?

Not at present, but two new antiviral drugs for coxsackievirus B are expected to come out in a few years.

Dr John Chia finds some ME/CFS patients with coxsackievirus B infections respond to the immune boosting herbal extract oxymatrine, but it did not work for me.


Note that Borrelia infection is also linked to skin wrinkling, likely as a result of a similar enzymes; and I would guess there may be other infections that might also cause skin wrinkling.
 
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StarChild56

Senior Member
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1,405
Not at present, but two new antiviral drugs for coxsackievirus B are expected to come out in a few years.

Dr John Chia finds some ME/CFS patients with coxsackievirus B infections respond to the immune boosting herbal extract oxymatrine, but it did not work for me.


Note that Borrelia infection is also linked to skin wrinkling, likely as a result of a similar enzymes; and I would guess there may be other infections that might also cause skin wrinkling.
Really good information, thank you again. I believe Borrelia is on of the ones I tested positive for. Right now we are treating my babesia first (then working on the Bartonella). Ugh. So many threads of disease, co infections, etc. to unravel and treat it is exhausting.

I may bring this up to my doctor but - I have so many fires to put out, it gets difficult and many things end up being on the back burner while the most urgent fires are being put out. But I digress. Thanks again.
 
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