Is your worst fatigue in the morning too?

[Violeta]

The tired but wired feeling, I had that, too. Someone here told me that's related to B2 and I started taking B2 and sure enough, it helped. At first I felt the tired without the wired and so it's a stage I had to get through.

I don't remember having this morning issue when I first came down with this, either. And everything does seem to get worse as time goes on, although my memory has improved from when I first came down with it.

 

[Violeta]

I just was looking at an old post of mine and I had described the tired but wired feeling as being in a straight jacket.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

the tired but wired feeling

writhing, on the bed, yet unable to actually just rest, there.

I read this ancient chinese text which described it all perfectly.

Its treated with Lily Bulbs (mixed with any number of other things)....

Bai He​

English: Lily bulbs
Chinese: 百合

We experience a classic case of YIN DEFICIENCY.

This is a pretty good web site.....for some background. One would never take this on its own, its combined with other appropriate chinese traditional herbs.

https://www.meandqi.com/herb-database/lily-bulb

 

[Emmarose47]

Another day in paradise here.....

 

[Violeta]

Another day in paradise here.....

Emmarose you have a way of making people smile

 

[Emmarose47]

Emmarose you have a way of making people smile

Oh that's good violet ta we need all the smiles we can get!

 

[Violeta]

Oh that's good violet ta we need all the smiles we can get!

True

 

[Stretched]

I’ve been dealing with a variety of ME/CFS symptoms for nine months and was recently diagnosed with it after extensive testing.

my fatigue is worst in the morning. I wake up and feel dead and force myself to get up. I’m faded physically and mentally before I even get out of bed so this doesn’t just happen when I stand up.

I tend to get some energy by 12:30pm. By 8pm I crash again. And my fatigue comes and goes in between.

I’d say at my worst I’m like a battery with 5% charged and at my best I reach 50%.

Do any of you have fatigue patterns like this where it’s always the worst at certain points in the day?

‘My routine mirrors your description. Add systemic pain.

 

[Violeta]

I am reading about glymphatics, wondering if cerebral edema disrupts drainage, and wondering if the awful morning feeling has anything to do with this.

Glymphatic drainage takes place (is supposed to take place) while sleeping.

Cerebral edema is when fluid builds up around the brain, causing an increase in pressure known as intracranial pressure. Symptoms can include headaches, nausea, dizziness, and more.

Three of the many things that can cause the brain to swell are viruses, hypoxia, and inflammation.

This sentence from a study I am reading is what initiated this direction.

Further, because the CNS is in a confined space, any swelling associated with inflammation can easily increase tissue pressure and thus give rise to reduced perfusion, ischemia, decreased venous drainage, and, possibly, raised intracranial pressure (ICP).

It's from this study:

The Pathobiology of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: The Case for Neuroglial Failure​

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2022.888232/full

 

[Dysfunkion]

‘My routine mirrors your description. Add systemic pain.

Mine is very similar in nature but the patterns are different, I wake up drained like I ran a marathon, after getting up at my usual time and having my coffee, I'll get a bare minimum of energy for a few hours, then it'll start dropping off to 12 PM where I hit an energy dead zone until 5 where it'll slowly start picking up again, it'll peak from 6-9 PM, and then instead of sleepy I'll get really restless till around 12, and then somehow my body gets too exhausted to sleep, and it repeats.

There is nothing I can narrow down that is doing it, even if I quit coffee it remains the same. It's like nothing can touch this weird energy cycle. And like they said the battery is never full though I will have some random days where the energy is higher without any known cause besides that they usually only happen in the Summer time when I'm getting more natural vitamin D and the environment is less draining for me. Sometimes heat can really wreck me but it's nowhere near as bad as when consistent Winter cold starts colliding with the stress of daily life too much.

What I eat can effect it a lot but usually only in a negative direction in various ways, my energy levels are the consistent best in a largely fasted state. I like to try to aim for a larger dinner every couple days because my energy levels tend to be the best on that schedule as long as I'm getting some breakfast in me every day. Normal people eat food for energy, I need to not eat besides the bare minimum I need for energy. In a bad energy crash right now because I tried eating meat again last night, still can't handle it. Feel like I'm in the twilight zone today. I just have to laugh sometimes, it's like with us everything is in reverse.

 

[Wishful]

I tried eating meat again last night, still can't handle it.

During one of the periods when I was intolerant of meat, it was one fatty acid, and taking carnitine allowed me to eat meat (fat, actually) safely. During another period, I was intolerant of proline, which is abundant in meat. That intolerance went away on its own, eventually. With experimentation, you might find a way to tolerate meat. It depends on what component of meat is the problem for you.

 

[Dysfunkion]

During one of the periods when I was intolerant of meat, it was one fatty acid, and taking carnitine allowed me to eat meat (fat, actually) safely. During another period, I was intolerant of proline, which is abundant in meat. That intolerance went away on its own, eventually. With experimentation, you might find a way to tolerate meat. It depends on what component of meat is the problem for you.

I don't know what component I am I am so sensitive too but I get very lethargic, brain fogged, depressed, and emotionally numb especially the next day. All land meat does it, chicken being the least offensive and beef being so bad that eating it will feel like someone shot me with a tranquiler dart and the next day after that the brain and cognitive fog has me feeling like I'm on another planet or like I have dementia or something. I've taken L-carnitine before and have had meat while on it before but that wasn't it for me. How did you find out it was proline? Whatever it is, is specific to land meat. No vegetable or seafood has ever done this to me even in terms of what I don't react well too. I can eat tons of seafood and be just fine.

 

[Wishful]

How did you find out it was proline?

By trying different amounts of different foods with different amino acid ratios. Proline was the best match. I didn't find a cheap source for pure proline, so I never tested that, but meals with the same proline content produced the same level of symptoms.

No vegetable or seafood has ever done this to me even in terms of what I don't react well too.

That sounds like it's not an amino acid. I don't know whether seafood and vegetables lack a fatty acid land meat has, but that seems less likely. Maybe a hormone? Otherwise, maybe an allergic reaction? I've had similar reactions to dietary fibre, but I don't think seafood would be digested much differently than land meat.

A mystery. Have you tried organic free-range meat? Maybe there's something common in the feed for factory meat (hormones, antibiotics). Another thing I'd try in that situation: insects (maybe cricket flour in pancakes). Another experiment would be reptile meat. Marsupial meat might be too similar to mammalian.

 

[Judee]

I just was looking at an old post of mine and I had described the tired but wired feeling as being in a straight jacket.

writhing, on the bed, yet unable to actually just rest, there.

These descriptions make me think of Akathesia.

 

[Dysfunkion]

By trying different amounts of different foods with different amino acid ratios. Proline was the best match. I didn't find a cheap source for pure proline, so I never tested that, but meals with the same proline content produced the same level of symptoms.


That sounds like it's not an amino acid. I don't know whether seafood and vegetables lack a fatty acid land meat has, but that seems less likely. Maybe a hormone? Otherwise, maybe an allergic reaction? I've had similar reactions to dietary fibre, but I don't think seafood would be digested much differently than land meat.

A mystery. Have you tried organic free-range meat? Maybe there's something common in the feed for factory meat (hormones, antibiotics). Another thing I'd try in that situation: insects (maybe cricket flour in pancakes). Another experiment would be reptile meat. Marsupial meat might be too similar to mammalian.

I highly doubt all seafood does too, I've considered it is a hormone thing or something in the feed of factory animals. I'm gonna see if anywhere around here can provide me with locally produced farm to table meat when I can. I wish I could get my hands on reptile meat and find out, I know nowhere around I can get gator. Remember having it once in my life before though and it was really good stuff. I don't have any reaction to fiber that I know of.

 

[Violeta]

I am reading about glymphatics, wondering if cerebral edema disrupts drainage, and wondering if the awful morning feeling has anything to do with this.

Glymphatic drainage takes place (is supposed to take place) while sleeping.

Cerebral edema is when fluid builds up around the brain, causing an increase in pressure known as intracranial pressure. Symptoms can include headaches, nausea, dizziness, and more.

Three of the many things that can cause the brain to swell are viruses, hypoxia, and inflammation.

This sentence from a study I am reading is what initiated this direction.

Further, because the CNS is in a confined space, any swelling associated with inflammation can easily increase tissue pressure and thus give rise to reduced perfusion, ischemia, decreased venous drainage, and, possibly, raised intracranial pressure (ICP).

It's from this study:

The Pathobiology of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: The Case for Neuroglial Failure​

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2022.888232/full

Convergence of hypoxia/edema/LPS

Hypoxia augments LPS-induced inflammation and triggers high altitude cerebral edema in mice​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...d-brain,leakage by disrupting tight junctions.

In this study the hypoxia is caused by high altitude. I am thinking that hypoxia from other causes would have the same effect.

In the present study, we investigated the inflammatory response and its roles in HACE (high altitude cerebral edema) in mice following high altitude hypoxic injury.

We report that acute hypobaric hypoxia induced a slight inflammatory response or brain edema within 24 h in mice. However, the lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced systemic inflammatory response rapidly aggravated brain edema upon acute hypobaric hypoxia exposure by disrupting blood-brain barrier integrity and activating microglia, increasing water permeability via the accumulation of aquaporin-4 (AQP4), and eventually leading to impaired cognitive and motor function. These findings demonstrate that hypoxia augments LPS-induced inflammation and induces the occurrence and development of cerebral edema in mice at high altitude. Here, we provide new information on the impact of systemic inflammation on the susceptibility to and outcomes of HACE.

Symptoms of brain edema (note: you don't have to have all of them)

For diffuse cerebral edema, the patient may have headaches, nausea, vomiting, lethargy, altered mental status, confusion, coma, seizure or other manifestations.

The more minor ones describe how I feel on a bad morning.

 

[Violeta]

Convergence of hypoxia/edema/LPS

Hypoxia augments LPS-induced inflammation and triggers high altitude cerebral edema in mice​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889159117301150#:~:text=Hypoxia augments LPS-induced systemic inflammation and neuroinflammation.&text=Combination of hypoxia exposure and LPS injection rapidly induces cerebral edema.&text=Combination of hypoxia exposure and LPS injection induces blood-brain,leakage by disrupting tight junctions.

In this study the hypoxia is caused by high altitude. I am thinking that hypoxia from other causes would have the same effect.

In the present study, we investigated the inflammatory response and its roles in HACE (high altitude cerebral edema) in mice following high altitude hypoxic injury.

We report that acute hypobaric hypoxia induced a slight inflammatory response or brain edema within 24 h in mice. However, the lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced systemic inflammatory response rapidly aggravated brain edema upon acute hypobaric hypoxia exposure by disrupting blood-brain barrier integrity and activating microglia, increasing water permeability via the accumulation of aquaporin-4 (AQP4), and eventually leading to impaired cognitive and motor function. These findings demonstrate that hypoxia augments LPS-induced inflammation and induces the occurrence and development of cerebral edema in mice at high altitude. Here, we provide new information on the impact of systemic inflammation on the susceptibility to and outcomes of HACE.

Symptoms of brain edema (note: you don't have to have all of them)

For diffuse cerebral edema, the patient may have headaches, nausea, vomiting, lethargy, altered mental status, confusion, coma, seizure or other manifestations.

The more minor ones describe how I feel on a bad morning.

Last night I took 2 capsules of activated charcoal and this morning wasn't nearly as bad as it has been.

Oh, wait, I also drank a couple of sips of Tulsi/peppermint tea every time I woke up.

Now I don't know which one helped.

Actually, it could have just been luck.

We'll see.

 

[jjxx]

Have you done a 24 hour saliva cortisol test? It might show you're not making adequate cortisol in the morning. Having your thyroid checked too might offer insight.

My energy is best from 7-10am, worst from 2-5pm.

Exactly same as me!

 

[Dysfunkion]

Exactly same as me!

I noticed the same and there is also after I had a bad reaction to a food something I noticed that was also interesting. The 2-5 stretch is where there is the most fatigue slowly building and tapering off, but after that from 6 PM forward is when my immune system starts ramping up the most with mediators if I'm in a flare from the other day and I feel the worst. Though if my immune system isn't going bonkers that's when I actually start feeling better. By late at night if things are ok then I tend to feel about as good as some of the morning hours in the range they mentioned.

 

[Wishful]

I also feel better in the morning and then at some point in the late afternoon, I feel worse and can't even read for long, and then back to better in the evening. I haven't tried to time it accurately enough to see whether it changes with Daylight Savings or other circadian rhythm changes.