Incredible improvements with Helminthic Therapy

[Hip]

All those providers look pretty dodgy. No contact details and only accept payment in bitcoin.

I wonder if selling by bitcoin is due to FDA or pharmaceutical industry regulations (a few years ago the FDA started regulating helminths as if they were drugs, which is why I think some of these providers cannot ship to the US). Although in principle FDA regulations should only apply to the US, in practice when it comes to drug regulations, the FDA's influence extends globally.

For example, with overseas pharmacies located outside of the US and selling generic drugs at much reduced prices, the pharmaceutical industry (via their organization LegitScript) work hand in hand with the VISA organization to take away credit card facilities from these overseas pharmacies, making it harder for them to do business.

In this paper on PubMed, the author states that it is unethical for the FDA to regulate helminths and bacteriotherapy.



Looking at the list of helminth providers on helminthictherapywiki.org, it seems that www.wormswell.com are a very well priced service, charging just $85 for a single dose of 5 Necator americanus larvae. Unfortunately Wormswell cannot ship to the US (it says so here).

And biomerestoration.com look even cheaper, charging just £15 for 5 helminths — but they sell Hymenolepis diminuta cysticercoids helminths, rather than Necator americanus.

Whereas most of the other providers are charging in the order of $2000 or $3000 for a two or three years supply of helminths. If you only want to try one small helminth dose to see if it helps, you wouldn't want to pay $2000 for a two or three year contract.

 

[Hutan]

How many doses of the Necator americanus hookworms have you taken so far, in the nine since you first started helminthic therapy? I had assumed that once happily living in your intestines, these helminths would increase in number anyway, so that you would not need any further doses of helminths.

I had a similar question @Hip. I found this article (listed on @Gyre's website) helpful for that question and just generally interesting.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/w...arasitic-worms-living-inside-me-and-its-great

It explains how the Necator americanus hookworms produce eggs but these are passed out in stools. They need to develop in the stool or soil for some days before being infective. So, with normal modern hygiene, the colony size is limited to the number of worms intentionally added.

Oh, and thanks @Gyre for bringing this treatment to our attention and for providing the numerous links for more information.

 

[Hip]

It explains how the Necator americanus hookworms produce eggs but these are passed out in stools. They need to develop in the stool or soil for some days before being infective. So, with normal modern hygiene, the colony size is limited to the number of worms intentionally added.

OK, that makes sense. I am glad you are reading the literature provided by Gyre; I am struggling at the moment, as my ADHD has been bad in the last few days, making reading difficult.

Interesting that Gyre is cultivating her own helminths; I am not sure how difficult that is, but it seems like it would save you a lot of money in the long run.

Yes, thanks to Gyre for bringing this Necator americanus treatment to our attention.

 

[Gyre]

How many doses of the Necator americanus hookworms have you taken so far, in the nine since you first started helminthic therapy? I had assumed that once happily living in your intestines, these helminths would increase in number anyway, so that you would not need any further doses of helminths.

Or are these helminths somewhat fragile, and prone to dying off, so that you have to regularly take top-up doses?

All of the therapeutic helminths complete their life cycle outside the human body, so there is no chance of anyone having more than has been introduced. The typical dosing scheme is to add more every three months until you are satisfied with how you feel or until you start to feel worse. Feeling worse happens when you go above your optimal personal colony size which can be vastly different between hosts. I've had four doses and probably have 30-35 (you never know exactly how many make it and take up residence). I suspect I'm approaching optimal colony size. Once I get there, I'll probably do a small top up every 6-12 months to keep colony size static and because having new ones seems to "perk up" old ones.

The interesting thing about POTS and OH is that they have both been linked to autoimmunity (and may well be autoimmune diseases). Thus if helminthic therapy is reducing autoimmune responses in the body, and thereby improving ME/CFS by that route, you might also expect any POTS and OH you have to improve at the same time.

Never tested for POTS, but definitely had OH issues which have also disappeared.

 

[Gyre]

Oh, and thanks @Gyre for bringing this treatment to our attention and for providing the numerous links for more information.

My pleasure.

Interesting that Gyre is cultivating her own helminths; I am not sure how difficult that is, but it seems like it would save you a lot of money in the long run.

I don't find it difficult to do, but some people seem to struggle. It does require a decent microscope which will cost you a few quid and some other small bits of gear. I suspect most people, especially if they are able to work, would simply find it simpler and easier to pay for them if they are living somewhere where it is easy to get things shipped. Plus then they don't have the incubation materials (ahem) sitting around the house being warm and moist, won't need space to store the gear or any worries around safe handling of the materials.

I started doing my own after the Lupus story came out in Stuff.co.nz and there was a huge surge in interest that lead to a temporary importation ban while Wormswell sorted things out with the NZ government. I didn't know how long that was going to go on and I was due for another dose, so I did my own. It is all sorted out now, but I've got the gear and the lab skills, so I've continued to do my own. Plus I find amateur microscopy to be a generally amusing casual past time, so I'm happy to have the scope any way.

 

[Gyre]

I wonder if selling by bitcoin is due to FDA or pharmaceutical industry regulations (a few years ago the FDA started regulating helminths as if they were drugs, which is why I think some of these providers cannot ship to the US). Although in principle FDA regulations should only apply to the US, in practice when it comes to drug regulations, the FDA's influence extends globally.

Don't even get me started on the FDA. You're definitely right that there are FDA issues. It is also a tricky subject that many people have uneducated knee jerk reactions about, so I don't blame providers who wants to remain anonymous.

Looking at the list of helminth providers on helminthictherapywiki.org, it seems that www.wormswell.com are a very well priced service, charging just $85 for a single dose of 5 Necator americanus larvae. Unfortunately Wormswell cannot ship to the US (it says so here).

And biomerestoration.com look even cheaper, charging just £15 for 5 helminths — but they sell Hymenolepis diminuta cysticercoids helminths, rather than Necator americanus.

Be aware that HDC is a non human helminth, so you are relying on reactions solely to the presence of the HDC in your system after you swallow it and the lingering after effects after you eliminate it. They do NOT mature and live inside of you like the human helminths do. HDC requires larger numbers and redosing every 2-3 weeks, so not really cheaper. "Anecdotal reports suggest that most people obtain the best results when taking 30-60 HDC every 2 or 3 weeks." More at http://helminthictherapywiki.org/wiki/index.php/The_HDC_experience

 

[Hip]

The typical dosing scheme is to add more every three months until you are satisfied with how you feel or until you start to feel worse.

So for an ME/CFS patient curious about trying helminthic therapy, is getting 5 Necator americanus hookworms from say www.wormswell.com for $85, and then seeing how these improve your health (or not) over the next three months the way to go initially?

If these hookworms were to provide benefits for ME/CFS, do you think that these benefits would typically manifest within the first three months?

Put another way: if you get these Necator americanus, and they don't provide any benefits (or perhaps even make you worse) in the first three months, then can you assume they are not going to work for you? Or do you really need to try helminthic therapy for a longer period, perhaps taking additional doses of hookworms after 3 months, if the first 5 hookworms don't seem to do much for you?

 

[Gyre]

So for an ME/CFS patient curious about trying helminthic therapy, is getting 5 Necator americanus hookworms from say www.wormswell.com for $85, and then seeing how these improve your health (or not) over the next three months the way to go initially?

If these hookworms were to provide benefits for ME/CFS, do you think that these benefits would typically manifest within the first three months?

Put another way: if you get these Necator americanus, and they don't provide any benefits (or perhaps even make you worse) in the first three months, then can you assume they are not going to work for you? Or do you really need to try helminthic therapy for a longer period, perhaps taking additional doses of hookworms after 3 months, if the first 5 hookworms don't seem to do much for you?

As far as a starter dose for CFS/ME, yes, five is the way people in the HT community are going at the current time and is what I did.

I saw marked improvements in 5 weeks. That is unusual, but not at all unprecedented. Most people don't see improvements for at least three months and for some people it takes up to 2 years. Very, very individual. Some one posted in the support group this week about seeing improvements for the first time at 16.5 months. The trend is to add additional doses at three month intervals as you go.

From the wiki at http://helminthictherapywiki.org/wi...apy_FAQ#How_long_does_it_take_to_be_healed.3F
How long does it take to be healed?
Helminthic therapy is typically very slow to deliver benefits when compared with drugs. For the majority who do respond, significant improvements do not usually materialise until at least 3 months after their first inoculation, with most people only seeing improvement in their condition between 3 and 5 months. Some may only start to improve between 6 and 12 months and a few may even have to wait for as long as 18-24 months.

Once improvements do begin, some people can experience a sudden and dramatic reduction in symptoms while others may respond more gradually over a period of time, possibly three years or more. And improvements during the first 2 years are not always continuous because there can be periods of exacerbation during which symptoms may worsen again, albeit temporarily.

Helminthic therapy is not a one-size-fits-all solution, nor a one dose fix. Dosing needs to be tailored to the unique needs of each individual, and continued indefinitely in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Hip]

Helminthic therapy is typically very slow to deliver benefits when compared with drugs. For the majority who do respond, significant improvements do not usually materialise until at least 3 months after their first inoculation, with most people only seeing improvement in their condition between 3 and 5 months. Some may only start to improve between 6 and 12 months and a few may even have to wait for as long as 18-24 months.

So costing this out, for an ME/CFS patient who wants to give helminthic therapy a reasonable chance to work, they should do it for at least a year, preferably two, looking out for the first signs of positive responses. If you are re-dosing with say 5 extra Necator americanus every three months, using Wormswell prices, that will cost you 4 x $85 = $340 for the first year, and another $340 for the next year if you continue. Or if you are using doses of 10 Necator americanus every three months, the cost will be 4 x $130 = $520 per year.

Of course, if you start getting major benefits early, you are not thereafter going to be too concerned about the money, because you will then know it is working for you.

 

[Gyre]

So costing this out, for an ME/CFS patient who wants to give helminthic therapy a reasonable chance to work, they should do it for at least a year, preferably two, looking out for the first signs of positive responses. If you are re-dosing with say 5 extra Necator americanus every three months, using Wormswell prices, that will cost you 4 x $85 = $340 for the first year, and another $340 for the next year if you continue. Or if you are using doses of 10 Necator americanus every three months, the cost will be 4 x $130 = $520 per year.

In that order. Or, of course, you can get a colony going with as few as 5 NA if you are lucky (I did and I know of several others who have as well) and DIY from there if you can buy or borrow appropriate gear.

 

[lansbergen]

https://web.stanford.edu/group/para...daANDYang_Hookworm/PinedaANDYang_Hookworm.htm

For example, it is known that helminth infections cause potent and highly polarized immune response characterized by increased T-helper cell type 2 (Th2) cytokine and Immunoglobulin(Ig)E production [68].

Who wants that? Not me.

N. Americanus and A. duodenale eggs can be found in warm, moist soil where they will eventually hatch into first stage larvae, or L1. L1, the feeding non-infective rhabditoform stage, will feed on soil microbes and eventually molt into second stage larvae, L2. L2, which is also in the rhabditoform stage, will feed for approximately 7 days and then molt into the third stage larvae, or L3. L3 is the filariform stage of the parasite, that is, the non-feeding infective form of the larvae. The L3 larvae are extremely motile and will seek higher ground to increase their chances of penetrating the skin of a human host. The L3 larvae can survive up to 2 weeks without finding a host. It is important to note that while N. americanus larvae only infect through penetration of skin, A. duodenale can infect both through penetration as well as orally.

 

[zippy890]

Hello,

I don't post here very often (ever ?). I've had CFS for over 30 years, and have been a patient of Dr. Paul Cheney for over 12 years. I had classic onset of CFS, following diagnosed case of mononucleosis at around age 19. I'd like to compliment Gyre for such a thorough treatment of this interesting subject. I too have been "hosting", as we wormies like to politely call it, for about 30 months now. I began by hosting rat tapeworms from Biome Restoration, and I can't say enough good things about them - wonderful folks. Then I transitioned to Necator Americanus hookworms. I got my first hookworms from the shadowy world of the "Hookworm Underground". I have no advice to people wishing to go that risky route, because I was extremely lucky. Like Gyre, I now do home grow.

I have seen some curious improvements to my health. But only small things really. So far, I have not seen any improvements in my major symptoms. However, I have been extremely cautious in my dosing schedule, building my colony size very slowly. In general, I like hosting, and I think it is simply part of a healthy lifestyle. It seems perfectly normal and natural to me now. I would continue to host, even if I did not ever see any specific improvements to my health. I believe, however, that there is still a good potential that this therapy will show significant benefits for me in the future.

So, that's it. Kudos again to Gyre for an even handed treatment of this subject.

 

[Chocolove]

Another forum thread re helminthic therapy:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=1914181&p=2
Helminthic therapy, hookworms, whipworms and how I achieved remission from Crohn's

Helminthic therapy - WOW.com
www.wow.com/wiki/Helminthic_therapy
Helminthic therapy, ... helminths compete with the host organism's cells for nutrient resources and thus possess the potential to ... Weight loss; Anorexia ...

Apparently the FDA classified worms as a medical device (not a drug.)
http://whyfiles.org/2010/maggots-leeches-parasitic-worms/

CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=...
... Code of Federal Regulations Title 21. FDA Home; Medical Devices; ... FDA premarket submission number means the number assigned by FDA to a premarket device ...

http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=hel...tqrm=0&wc=200&wc_mc=1&oe=UTF-8&ud=1&&start=30

http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=hel...ds=-archive:Yes&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*
****************************************

Note: Helminths (from the Greek helminthos, meaning worm) refers to all parasitic worms of humans. They are complex, multicellular organisms, ranging in size from the microscopic filarial parasites to the giant tapeworms, several metres in length.

The weight loss industry has long sold tapeworms to lose weight:

Woman Swallows Tapeworm To Lose Weight; Tells Doctor She ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/19/woman-swallows-tapeworm-iowa_n...
Video embedded · An Iowa woman recently told her doctor that she bought a tapeworm on the Internet and ingested it in an attempt to lose weight. The doctor was apparently ...

Eating Tapeworms for Weight Loss Is Risky & Illegal
www.medicinenet.com/eating_tapeworms_for_weight_loss/views.htm
Tapeworms have been marketed as a weight-loss product for over 100 years. Learn about the health risks associated with swallowing tapeworms to lose weight.

Still can't lose weight? There's always the tapeworm diet
www.philly.com/philly/blogs/public_health/Still-cant-lose-weight...
the tapeworm egg diet. That’s right, a program that told you to swallow tapeworm eggs and lose weight.

 

[Gyre]

https://web.stanford.edu/group/para...daANDYang_Hookworm/PinedaANDYang_Hookworm.htm



Who wants that? Not me.

You can learn more about why increased Th2 activation can be an excellent thing for people with autoimmune disease from the first TED talk on this page by a PhD in parasitology. Spoiler alert: Increased Th2 activation downregulates Th1 responses, which are the ones we have problems with in autoimmune diseases.

 

[Gyre]

Hello,

I don't post here very often (ever ?). I've had CFS for over 30 years, and have been a patient of Dr. Paul Cheney for over 12 years. I had classic onset of CFS, following diagnosed case of mononucleosis at around age 19. I'd like to compliment Gyre for such a thorough treatment of this interesting subject. I too have been "hosting", as we wormies like to politely call it, for about 30 months now. I began by hosting rat tapeworms from Biome Restoration, and I can't say enough good things about them - wonderful folks. Then I transitioned to Necator Americanus hookworms. I got my first hookworms from the shadowy world of the "Hookworm Underground". I have no advice to people wishing to go that risky route, because I was extremely lucky. Like Gyre, I now do home grow.

I have seen some curious improvements to my health. But only small things really. So far, I have not seen any improvements in my major symptoms. However, I have been extremely cautious in my dosing schedule, building my colony size very slowly. In general, I like hosting, and I think it is simply part of a healthy lifestyle. It seems perfectly normal and natural to me now. I would continue to host, even if I did not ever see any specific improvements to my health. I believe, however, that there is still a good potential that this therapy will show significant benefits for me in the future.

So, that's it. Kudos again to Gyre for an even handed treatment of this subject.

I'm glad you are seeing some positive changes. There is no doubt that I've been insanely lucky at my level of improvement. Even if it had been more modest, I would be keen to continue as I also see it as a reasonable part of a healthy lifestyle after all the research I've done into it. Almost non-existent seasonal allergies and a new tolerance small amounts of wheat make my life easier.

This isn't for everyone, but I believe that people should know about Helminthic Therapy and make their own informed decisions.

 

[lansbergen]

You can learn more about why increased Th2 activation can be an excellent thing for people with autoimmune disease from the first TED talk on this page by a PhD in parasitology. Spoiler alert: Increased Th2 activation downregulates Th1 responses, which are the ones we have problems with in autoimmune diseases.

But do ME patients not have a Th2 problem?

Anyway the immunemodulator I use does the opposite of what the helminth trreatment seems to do.

 

[Gyre]

But do ME patients not have a Th2 problem?

There seems to be much discussion about that with no solid answer yet. Of course, there are pretty much no solid answers for CFS/ME in general, so that is no surprise.

If what you are doing is working for you, that is fantastic.

 

[Cheesus]

At first I found this alarming and I was quite incredulous, but the more I read about it the more I want to try it. It is particularly interesting for me because of how it relates to T-cells. I have tried NAC in the past which agonises T-cells (i.e. stimulates them) and that made me very, very severely sick. I then tried LDN, which is theorised to work by increasing the number of regulatory T-cells, and that made me a lot better!

From what I have read, helminths seems to stimulate regulatory T-cells.

I am also keen to try this because my ME was caused by an alternative healthcare practitioner giving me herbal antimicrobials, so I have always suspected I did something to my microbiome to make me sick. However I have never been able to find a fungal or bacterial cause.

 

[Cheesus]

@Gyre

Were you particularly susceptible to infection when you were ill, or were you in the camp that very rarely or never get infections?

 

[Cheesus]

I am happy to give guidance to anyone who is struggling to buy with bitcoin, as cryptocurrencies are a special interest for me.