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In a desperate effort to rid myself of this, I need some guidance.

TheChosenOne

Senior Member
Messages
209
Wasn't there a urine test that can show heavy metals?
You can do a provocation test. In this case you can take chelation supplements and then you see how much mercury you pee out. I don't know how accurate this is.

And what's SAMe?
SAMe is your general methylation donor. It is part of the methylation cycle. Some people do well on SAMe. It is sometimes prescribed for people that have depression. But the supplement is quite expensive imho.
 
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36
You can PM the link though (but I would prefer you post it here because other sufferers may need to know), perhaps I may give it a try (unless I want a genetic test from 23andme, my budget is tight as I am not really having help from my parents on this, aside from being given money). @caledonia 's methylation guide says I have to do this.

Alpha GPC is my preferred form of choline supplementation, I feel it take effect almost immediately, instant focus. Jarrow's and many other brands sell it on Iherb and it costs around 25 to 30 bucks. You can also buy it as bulk powder which is considerably cheaper. CDP choline is also very effective and quick acting. I don't tend to "feel" food sources of choline, lectithin or phosphatidylcholine but I definitely get a sharp increase in focus from alpha gpc (which is the most bioactive form).

You can also use acetylcholinesterase inhibitors like DMAE (Huperzine A, Galantamine etc etc), which limit the break down of acetylcholine and thus allow more of it into your brain for longer periods. A combination of DMAE (or centrophenoxine) and Alpha GPC is what I use to keep everything in focus. I used to get a lot of bluriness in my peripheral vision, eye floaters but increasing choline levels has eliminated that for me.

It's probably not the answer to all of your health problems, hell, we're all looking for the smoking gun, but next time your brain feels like it's made of cotton wool and you need to get something done, it might help. It has been a game changer for me.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Hi Methhead,

I read all your posts and looked at your hair test.

First off - Prozac and other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) can indeed cause a very severe withdrawal syndrome. I have unfortunately had a lot of experience with this. If you're sensitive, you have to taper off extremely slowly to avoid withdrawal symptoms. I'm 3 years into a 5 year taper off of Zoloft...

Could you still be suffering from Prozac withdrawals 2 years after you quit? Yes, it's possible. Most people (even if they got off the medicine too fast) are free from symptoms by 3 years. Coming off within a few weeks or months could be too fast for some people. A proper 20mg Prozac taper might take 6 months to a year.

You definitely seem to have adrenal fatigue - you have low electrolytes (magnesium, potassium and sodium). You're reporting muscle cramps. Adrenal fatigue can cause anxiety and trouble handling stress. It can cause low stomach acid and trouble digesting.

If you have adrenal fatigue you will feel worse if you restrict carbohydrates from your diet. You need a "hit" of carbs to avoid hypoglycemia, which can make you feel anxious.

You seem to be low in all minerals. The high copper/low zinc can indicate pyrroluria. This is a symptom of mercury.

Your mother had amalgam fillings, and even if they were removed before you were conceived, her body burden would still be there (unless she chelated properly) and you would have gotten some of that body burden. The seafood diet could have also contributed some mercury, but usually amalgams are the worst offenders.

The numb spots make me think you're B12 deficient, but you didn't say you were on a vegan diet or restricting meat. This still doesn't rule out a B12 deficiency for various reasons. I would have your doc test for this. See the B12 articles by Chris Kresser in my signature link for the proper tests. A regular serum blood test may not be accurate.

=-=-=-=-

Here is what I would suggest - for now don't do any testing. Wait until you see the doctor and see what kind of testing he/she wants you to do, otherwise you might waste your money on the wrong thing. Ask your doc to do B12 testing as I mentioned above.

Get on a diet that keeps your blood sugar even, such as the Zone Diet - it's very simple - avoid sugary foods and drinks and processed food in general. Basically just eat real whole food.

Then make sure you get some protein, carbohydrates and fats with each meal and snack. This will keep your blood sugar even. Eat small meals every 3 hours or however often you need to keep your blood sugar from dropping. Eat before you get too hungry.

Then you might want to try supplementing electrolytes. This would be magnesium, potassium and possibly sodium. Magnesium and potassium work together as a pair. What works best for me is powders that you can dissolve in water and drink. I do this 4 times a day because of adrenal fatigue - your electrolytes will be leaking out like crazy and need to replaced often. Do the sodium if you're craving salt, or salty foods like potato chips, etc. Or just try licking a bit of salt off the palm of your hand and see if it makes you feel better.

I can tell you the exact brands that I use, but I'm not sure of their availability in the UK.

This should help you feel more comfortable until you can get in to the doctor.

If you want, you can ask at the Cutler Yahoo Group I already gave a link to see if they can interpret your brand of hair test. It's not the usual brand they interpret, but they may still be able to. There is evidence that you have copper and aluminum as well as mercury. These will cause system wide problems due to messing with various enzymes and gene functions.

Even if your doctor says to do this - DO NOT do a provoked metal urine test. This will cause metal redistribution and make you feel worse. The safest protocol for metal chelation is the Cutler Frequent Dose Chelation protocol. DO NOT do any kind of protocol that has you taking chelators once a day. They need to be taken every few hours including overnight. Many doctors are not aware of this and will have you do the wrong thing.

DO NOT take alpha lipoic acid (ALA) which is sometimes prescribed as a general health thing - it's also a mercury chelator and needs to be taken on a frequent dose schedule if you have metals (which I'm pretty sure you do). Check for the presence of this in multivitamins too.

-=-=-=-=-

As far as brain fog, you can try the choline the other poster talked about if you want. It is true that it will help methylation by taking a burden off SAMe. Creatine does the same thing. SAMe (S Adenosyl Methionine) is the final step in the methylation cycle where methyl groups are donated to various functions. Most SAMe goes to creating choline and creatine (the rest goes to methylation).

The one thing that worked really well for me for brain fog was 100mg CoQ10. I did that for many years until I got some methylation going, then apparently I was able to create enough of my own CoQ10 I didn't need to supplement any more. The CoQ10 was like a magic bullet for me just like the choline was for the other poster. On the other hand I don't tolerate lecithin (converts to choline), so go figure.

Somewhere in there you mentioned floaters and other eye issues. This could possibly be from dry eyes due to adrenal fatigue. You may also have dry mouth causing cavities. If this seems like you, you can try some pharmaceutical grade or molecular distilled fish oil (ultra pure so there's no mercury in it). This works great for me.

=-=-=-=-

Read the Start Low and Go Slow document linked in my signature for ideas on how to start new supplements. Start one thing at a time. Don't start with the full amount. Start with a fraction of a pill and gradually work up as tolerated. This will save you a lot of grief from bad reactions.

Start a symptom journal and take notes to help you keep track of what's working and what isn't. Especially with your brain fog, you won't be able to remember otherwise.
 
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I was about 19 when I started this journey. There are a few things I regret approaching the way I did, so perhaps they may be useful for you.

* * * * * * * *

Starting at Curezone I tried my fair share of restrictive diets. Starting with a Candida diet and leading to GAPS/SCD and finally low carb paleo.

I became emotionally attached to the diets because they solved my chronic acne, holding on despite worsening symptoms and ultimately the return of my acne. Often I see others come out of these diets with more food sensitivity and adrenal problems than when they started.

With any diet I would keep an eye on carb and calorie intakes. The best blog I know on this sort of thing is Paul Jaminet's. some info here: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/page/2/

* * * * * * * *

Whenever possible, I would opt for trialling a supplement over getting expensive private testing. Unless you are absolutely sure they are necessary.

My biggest regret is blowing all my money trying to find a private alternative doctor here in the UK. Wish I had either saved up to see one of the top dogs while I could still travel, or had the courage to do what I could on my own.

The doctors I saw were all too happy to push expensive tests on me, but I can't think of a single one that has proved useful in the long run. Some of them seemed to be conducting research at my expense, and others just ordering a list promoted by some alternative medicine society with close ties to certain private labs.

* * * * * * * *

Since you have some hair results, it's worth posting them to the Frequent Dose Chelation Yahoo group if you haven't. Probably best to scan in the document and erase any personal data.

My suggestion would be a trial of chelation. I wrote a brief overview of it in another thread (Sorry for the thread hijack, Ren): http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylation-and-dysbiosis.39179/#post-628288
Though probably get acquainted with the Cutler Yahoo or Facebook group before trying anything.

One thing I don't think I stated specifically was that the doses must betaken continuously, including at night. If you decide you want to try this I can offer some tips on how to avoid missing doses.

I agree that methylation supplements helps smooth out the symptoms stirred up by chelation. It may be worth doing the trial before starting them for this reason, as any reaction may be easier to identify.



The nice thing about chelation is the majority of the supplements are just antioxidants, minerals and OTC symptom relievers that have a lot of overlap with other approaches such as methylation.

If you make chelation part of your lifestyle and count every round in a diary of some kind, then regardless of how any other treatments pan out you can think "I've done x weeks of chelation" and feel some sense of momentum at least. I've found that aspect very reassuring psychologically, even though I haven't seen much symptom improvement.

* * * * * * * *

I'm not sure what level of functionality you are at, but if it becomes a problem financially for you, keep in mind the option of seeking some kind of disability support. After being housebound for a few years I was struggling when I probably should have sought help sooner. I only qualify for the ESA WRAG but without that it would have been game over for me a long time ago.
 
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Wow. Thanks for the help. Like seriously, I appreciate it. How many rounds of chelation have you done @Unim ?

As of yet I am not bed ridden, and my brain fog sort of only became a real problem around 2010. Around this time I was super stressed quite often.

The private doctor wasn't pushing for tests, in fact I was. And thanks for telling me about how the metal chelation should be done. I will have to talk to him about the urine test still.

As for prozac. I tapered off it back in 2013...I think it was around 2-3 months of tapering. I didn't feel much different from before or after I stopped taking it, but I did get really depressed before I did stop. Had some horrible anxiety afterwards and heart palpitations, but they have calmed down now (But flared up lately when I became deficient in electrolytes).

I will temporarily go back to eating foods with carbs to avoid worsening my adrenal fatigue. That may explain why my acid reflux started up again after following the candida diet for 2-3 weeks (could have been that I was becoming super deficient).

Currently not on any other form of prescription medication and won't plan on taking any other antidepressants for as long as I live, don't want to get side effects from some other one lol. And my condition wasn't anywhere near as bad in the year after I stopped Prozac, so I don't think the Prozac is responsible for my current poor health.

My liver seems to stop producing bile whenever food is cut from my diet. If I cut gluten from my diet, or just reduce sugar and carbs, my stools stop looking brown and become yellow or clay coloured. Moment I reintroduce gluten, bile is produced.

I hope you get proper success with chelation someday. I was taking a lot of Zinc and Vitamin C earlier on in the diet. IT was at this time I noticed blips in my mental and cognitive state (reduced apathy, less derealization, better mood, slightly more optimism, head felt more alive) and started to get detox symptoms. Keep in mind I this was only back in October.

Perhaps the Zinc was pushing out mercury, which is why I had the die off type symptoms. I took a lot of Zinc and B6 with molybdenum a few nights ago and I got similar symptoms (with tingling in my hands). I also had two vivid dreams in a row...which is a sign of pyroluria. Poor dream recall is something that's been on and off in my life.

The doctor I am seeing specialised in Methylation, I followed the practitioner list link on @caledonia 's methylation guide.

http://www.atnutrition.org/

He also orders 23andme tests. He also seemed worried about the restrictive diet I was on and told me it's a bad idea to cut too much out of my diet if I have all these health problems...I have a really good feeling about him, but what do you think? He was aware of Phoenix Rising too.

I believe a chunk of my brain fog is to do with adrenal exhaustion, I don't get as much of a stuffy feeling in my head these days. More of an extreme apathy that prevents me from focusing on things very well. It was also considerably better earlier this year when I let my adrenal glands rest. So it's been getting worse very slowly. Never had fillings but ate a lot of fish and had vaccines growing up. Had a tetanus shot in 2013 too >.<

I am hoping I can find someone who specialises in heavy metal chelation who can guide me back to full health, or at least so close I don't mind it anymore. I think I can make a good recovery as long as we address these problems in the next few months.
 
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The skype appointment is booked. The questionnaire he gave me was pretty extensive and asked about many of the symptoms you guys often complain about.

The main thing I will discuss with him is how to improve my elimination pathways.
 
Messages
63
Heart palpitations are in a good place now. Since supplementing with Potassium (I am taking Mag with some Sodium) it appears to have helped.

At least my body is absorbing nutrients in supplement form still I suppose.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Perhaps the Zinc was pushing out mercury, which is why I had the die off type symptoms. I took a lot of Zinc and B6 with molybdenum a few nights ago and I got similar symptoms (with tingling in my hands). I also had two vivid dreams in a row...which is a sign of pyroluria. Poor dream recall is something that's been on and off in my life.

Probably helping with copper. Zinc and B6 are used for pyrroluria, and I've heard Yasko report that molybdenum can cause copper dumping.
 
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63
Probably helping with copper. Zinc and B6 are used for pyrroluria, and I've heard Yasko report that molybdenum can cause copper dumping.

Maybe that's one of the reasons I felt better earlier on in the candida diet, I was supplementing with large amounts of zinc and Vitamin C. I noticed a brief reduction in cognitive symptoms and apathy (at this point I could watch something on my kindle, making the suffering much more bearable). I must talk to this practitioner about this. IF so, then maybe we can finally see some improvement? Don't want to experiment until he knows my condition.

I never mentioned this symptom. I would struggle to breathe (like something was super tense around my chest) prior to October, but once I started the diet, that breathing issue went away. It popped up recently (around a year or two ago) and hasn't returned since. Now I know you aren't a doctor...could this have been copper being removed from that area of the body?

This is one thing I was worried to ask. When I was around 8, I suddenly developed this horrible itchy rash. It lasted for a few days and covered my face and torso. I also had a sore throat too (I was prone to them back then, not so much now for some reason). But it went away suddenly. It kinda looked a bit like a strep rash. I wonder if that contributed to my CFS, but who knows. I am not even 100% sure my symptoms are immune system related, could be an underlying issue that affects the immune system?

That is the funny thing, I rarely get ill too (nowadays anyway). Only had one cold this year. Haven't had flu in freaking years either. What the hell is up with that?

I appreciate you answering these questions @caledonia Perhaps copper may be more of an issue than mercury at this point for all we know? I felt a reduction in feelings of derealization as well. Perhaps my adrenal glands were working better, or neurotransmitter production. I felt more "alive" inside my brain then that's for sure.

Could be why my adrenals crashed in the last year since I had less zinc in my diet.
 
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caledonia

Senior Member
I'm not sure what the breathing thing is. People on here report issues with that from time to time, and I've had it myself occasionally. If that happens, I do several long slow deep breaths and that seems to help.

If it was just an itchy rash, I would guess it was histamine related, like some kind of allergy. But if there was a sore throat with it, that sounds more like something which is immune related. It makes me wonder why you didn't have a fever too?

People also report either getting sick a lot or not getting sick at all. This is supposed to be due to having either and underactive or overactive immune system.

If you're not getting sick, I think I would just be grateful :)
 
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I'm not sure what the breathing thing is. People on here report issues with that from time to time, and I've had it myself occasionally. If that happens, I do several long slow deep breaths and that seems to help.

If it was just an itchy rash, I would guess it was histamine related, like some kind of allergy. But if there was a sore throat with it, that sounds more like something which is immune related. It makes me wonder why you didn't have a fever too?

People also report either getting sick a lot or not getting sick at all. This is supposed to be due to having either and underactive or overactive immune system.

If you're not getting sick, I think I would just be grateful :)

The breathing thing is like my chest muscles are super tense. If you know what I mean. IT's not like asthma or anything. But it went away after following the candida diet for a while. Might have been because I took so much Zinc and Vitamin C at the time?

I don't remember if I had a fever...maybe.

I just remember not getting as many illnesses as I got older.

Though this may be of interest. When I cut gluten out last year, all it took was for me to not eat Toast that morning. Within a few minutes my body started to feel more healthy. I am not kidding. I know gluten causes an immune system reaction, though I doubt immune system issues are directly causing my psychological and cognitive issues (I have been able to enjoy and focus on things in the past despite being very ill at times).

Talking to this guy tomorrow should yield some results. His questionnaire seemed almost tailored for someone with CFS lol.
 

Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
After being gluten-free for approximately five years, I gradually became less diligent. This progressed into what I referred to as "gluten loading" -- eating gluten whenever the opportunity presented itself, and ultimately (during the last few weeks of my experiment) intentionally eating as much gluten as possible. I did this prior to being tested for celiac disease, something that wasn't done before I went gluten-free. I thoroughly enjoyed the pastas and pizzas, but the more I ate, the more I swelled up (puffy fingers, face, neck and knees; the latter of which made it difficult to go downstairs without pain and a horrible grinding sensation, as if my knees were dislocated). Although my celiac test was negative, these symptoms alone were enough to confirm I shouldn't be eating gluten. But what really shocked both me, and my physician, were my thyroid test results. After only a month of daily gluten, my TSH number had increased by a factor of four, indicating that the gluten was adversely affecting my thyroid. I stopped eating gluten entirely again, and my thyroid went back to "my normal" in a month, meaning mildly hypothyroid, requiring a low dose of medication. And, it only took a few days for my knees to stop grinding. I lost six pounds during the first week without gluten, five of which I estimated was due to water retention.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
The breathing thing is like my chest muscles are super tense. If you know what I mean. IT's not like asthma or anything. But it went away after following the candida diet for a while. Might have been because I took so much Zinc and Vitamin C at the time?

I don't remember if I had a fever...maybe.

I just remember not getting as many illnesses as I got older.

Though this may be of interest. When I cut gluten out last year, all it took was for me to not eat Toast that morning. Within a few minutes my body started to feel more healthy. I am not kidding. I know gluten causes an immune system reaction, though I doubt immune system issues are directly causing my psychological and cognitive issues (I have been able to enjoy and focus on things in the past despite being very ill at times).

Talking to this guy tomorrow should yield some results. His questionnaire seemed almost tailored for someone with CFS lol.

My guess would be that the toast thing is more about getting some starchy carbs which will get some sugar to your brain and fix hypoglycemia, vs something with gluten.
 
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63
Thought I should update.

The appointment went well I guess, he suggested I should do a high protein diet for a while but told me to be cautious with doing chelation until my body is in a better state of being, but I decided to order DMPS and ALA anyway in the mean time.

Going to be really careful when doing the cutler protocol...
 
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So...now I need to find a good multivitamin/multimineral powder, I have an incredibly strong hunch being deficient in many minerals and vitamins worsened my symptoms in general. I mean, I only started losing hair after cutting a ton of foods out of my diet (my hair was growing faster too!).

There are just so many though and I can't really chose. Really want to spend money more carefully for a little while.

IF someone could please recommend me a good multivitamin/mineral powder or something that would be nice. My absorption ability from supplements is still pretty good.
 
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63
There is one thing I just realised that may give weight to the nutrient deficiency theory...

I haven't really had any iodine in my diet for the past year. Like at all. And I know iodine is important for thyroid function and detoxing...

Do you guys think I should give iodine a whirl? I know it's best to take selenium with it and be careful with how much you ingest.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
So...now I need to find a good multivitamin/multimineral powder, I have an incredibly strong hunch being deficient in many minerals and vitamins worsened my symptoms in general. I mean, I only started losing hair after cutting a ton of foods out of my diet (my hair was growing faster too!).

There are just so many though and I can't really chose. Really want to spend money more carefully for a little while.

IF someone could please recommend me a good multivitamin/mineral powder or something that would be nice. My absorption ability from supplements is still pretty good.

You could try Thorne Basic Nutrients (one without iron since you're male), Holistic Health All In One Multi, or Seeking Health Optimal Multivitamin.

Those all have methylfolate. The Holistic Health multi does have a bit of folic acid. The Holistic Health multi and Seeking Health Multi both have some adrenal adaptogens which you may or may not tolerate.

You may or may not tolerate a full dose of the vitamin. A smaller dose might be tolerated better. Some would be better than nothing.

If you're not tolerating multi's, then consider doing single vitamins, or maybe a mineral supplement with single antioxidants. I've been having to do this lately as I've had more trouble tolerating things since an attempt at chelating (the wrong way).

You could also go the route of just supplementing what Cutler suggests for chelation (he has a list of helper supplements which are very important to go along with the chelators.)
 
Messages
63
You could try Thorne Basic Nutrients (one without iron since you're male), Holistic Health All In One Multi, or Seeking Health Optimal Multivitamin.

Those all have methylfolate. The Holistic Health multi does have a bit of folic acid. The Holistic Health multi and Seeking Health Multi both have some adrenal adaptogens which you may or may not tolerate.

You may or may not tolerate a full dose of the vitamin. A smaller dose might be tolerated better. Some would be better than nothing.

If you're not tolerating multi's, then consider doing single vitamins, or maybe a mineral supplement with single antioxidants. I've been having to do this lately as I've had more trouble tolerating things since an attempt at chelating (the wrong way).

You could also go the route of just supplementing what Cutler suggests for chelation (he has a list of helper supplements which are very important to go along with the chelators.)

Thanks.

I have decided that for the time being, I will just go right into doing Andy Cutler's chelation protocol while my body still has some energy left to fight.

I tried some MethylB12 with folate and P5P the other day...it DID cause a die off reaction (got itchy and a slight rash on my hands) and I felt slightly more calm, but no real change in mental state. The MethylB12 didn't cause this when I used it alone a little while back.

I think the Mercury (since I am likely to have it, based on my decline when I cut so much out of my diet and my symptoms being too damn close to the reported poisoning symptoms. That and I had vaccines, a mother with amalgams and ate a lot of tuna growing up, like multiple times a week) and perhaps Arsenic (ate a lot of white rice) are behind many (if not most/all) of my symptoms. I ordered some DMPS (this chelates Mercury as well as Arsenic, I will get DMSA later when I want to get rid of lead) and ALA to do some chelation. The guys over at FDC tell me it will probably take some time.

All I need to do is get hold of an Adrenal Cortex Extract and Taurine, and then I will be ready to chelate. Got a good supply of Vitamin C and E to last me for a while. For the first few rounds I will use DMPS alone, then add in ALA (I predict the ALA will yield noticeable changes in cognitive functioning, as apparently the organic Mercury from Tuna goes right into the brain, where I think a lot of my burden came from). DMPS will probably help in smaller ways.

God, right now I am waiting with anticipation for the chelators. IS that kind of pathetic? Not that I am planning on overdosing on them or something, I am going to be extra careful with these. Start off by halving the 2.5MG tablet for DMPS (there are rare cases of allergies, so just to be safe), if that goes well I will up the dose until I start getting some sort of reaction by detox.

IF I have any success, I will make sure you guys know. The reason I am sort of jumping into this right now rather than a bit later is because 1. My body isn't too unhealthy at the moment, most of the problem seems to occur in the brain. 2. My elimination pathways are not completely fucked up right now. 3. I suspected heavy metals months ago, but I decided not to pursue it because I thought chelation was this super dangerous and complicated process, but it turns out it's something you can do in your home provided you follow the rules and play it safe and slow. And 4. Because I want to go back to living a fairly normal life and I don't want my brain to get damaged beyond repair.

It's a bit of a miracle that thechosenone showed me that symptom list here.