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I cyclophosphamide

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33
I wouldn't give up hope, maybe you will have a response down the road.

If it were me, I would start an antiviral like valacyclovir before my B cells repopulated.
I have just started starting plasma cell depletion with bortezomib. If my symptoms improve it will be impossible to be sure if cyclophosphamide played a part. Plasma cells usually repopulate quickly after bortezomib treatment. It makes sense in theory that cyclophosphamide would prolong the effects of bortezomib by slowing this process even if it didn’t improve my symptoms on its own.

I tested my immunoglobulins before starting bortezomib treatment, Iga 2.09 Igg 10.8 Igm 1.12. All within normal range. Extrapolating from their graph, my Igg was probably around 11.5 before I started cyclophosphamide. This fits with the observation (discussed in the thread linked in my last post) that cyclophosphamide non responders have higher baseline Igg.

I don’t think I’m in the latent virus subset because I had negative titres and no response to months on antivirals, but I will be taking valacyclovir for prophylaxis as recommended.
 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
Messages
732
I have just started starting plasma cell depletion with bortezomib. If my symptoms improve it will be impossible to be sure if cyclophosphamide played a part. Plasma cells usually repopulate quickly after bortezomib treatment. It makes sense in theory that cyclophosphamide would prolong the effects of bortezomib by slowing this process even if it didn’t improve my symptoms on its own.

I tested my immunoglobulins before starting bortezomib treatment, Iga 2.09 Igg 10.8 Igm 1.12. All within normal range. Extrapolating from their graph, my Igg was probably around 11.5 before I started cyclophosphamide. This fits with the observation (discussed in the thread linked in my last post) that cyclophosphamide non responders have higher baseline Igg.

I don’t think I’m in the latent virus subset because I had negative titres and no response to months on antivirals, but I will be taking valacyclovir for prophylaxis as recommended.
Thank you for the update, dankeen. I hope you'll continue to keep us posted.

Are you really negative for evidence of past infection of EBV, CMV, and HHV6? That would be very unusual in the general population. What about VZV or even HSV? How did your illness start?

Thanks again and good luck.
 
Messages
30
I have just started starting plasma cell depletion with bortezomib. If my symptoms improve it will be impossible to be sure if cyclophosphamide played a part. Plasma cells usually repopulate quickly after bortezomib treatment. It makes sense in theory that cyclophosphamide would prolong the effects of bortezomib by slowing this process even if it didn’t improve my symptoms on its own.

I tested my immunoglobulins before starting bortezomib treatment, Iga 2.09 Igg 10.8 Igm 1.12. All within normal range. Extrapolating from their graph, my Igg was probably around 11.5 before I started cyclophosphamide. This fits with the observation (discussed in the thread linked in my last post) that cyclophosphamide non responders have higher baseline Igg.

I don’t think I’m in the latent virus subset because I had negative titres and no response to months on antivirals, but I will be taking valacyclovir for prophylaxis as recommended.
Where did you find access to Bortezomib?

I have been on B cell depleting therapy for 3.5 years now with no improvement (actual recent worsening). Initially I was diagnosed with MS and started on Ocrevus. I switched to Kesimpta around 6 months ago. My neurologist is unsure of what I have as I have dysautonomia and was found to have mitochondrial abnormalities on biopsy. I also experience PEM and significant fatigue (baseline, with exertion and post exertional). He keeps treating me for MS because we can’t find any other reason but I’m unfortunately continuing to worsen.

It’s my understanding that plasma cell depletion may actually be better for antibody mediated disease compared to the anti CD20 therapy I have been on. Keep us updated on how you do. I would have thought if it was immune mediated that the cyclophosphamide would’ve helped as it would have reset your T and B cell lines.
 
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Where did you find access to Bortezomib?

I have been on B cell depleting therapy for 3.5 years now with no improvement (actual recent worsening). Initially I was diagnosed with MS and started on Ocrevus. I switched to Kesimpta around 6 months ago. My neurologist is unsure of what I have as I have dysautonomia and was found to have mitochondrial abnormalities on biopsy. I also experience PEM and significant fatigue (baseline, with exertion and post exertional). He keeps treating me for MS because we can’t find any other reason but I’m unfortunately continuing to worsen.

It’s my understanding that plasma cell depletion may actually be better for antibody mediated disease compared to the anti CD20 therapy I have been on. Keep us updated on how you do. I would have thought if it was immune mediated that the cyclophosphamide would’ve helped as it would have reset your T and B cell lines.
I got bortezomib from a pharmacist I found on Indiamart. You can get most (non narcotic) drugs from India at the lowest prices in the world. The problem is in some countries customs won’t let them through, but in the UK they do.

Low dose cyclophosphamide does not reset T or B cells in the sense of wiping out immune memory. For that you need high dose cyclophosphamide with AHSCT which is much more dangerous and expensive. Our understanding of the immune system has a long way to go. Doctors don’t know why different patients with the same autoimmune disease respond to different drugs. It’s largely trial and error. I agree about plasma cell depletion, but doctors are less likely to do it and often only as a last resort because it is a relatively new practice.
 
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I think that Bortezomib would be safer to use than these other anti CD20 drugs as Bortezomib doesn’t wipe out memory B cells? Do you think you would see quicker improvements as well if it was going to work?

My family thinks that maybe I should try aHSCT but that would require a trip to Mexico and intense medical therapy. Currently I am housebound and can only tolerate pretty minimal activity in order to avoid PEM.
 
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I would be super reluctant to try Bortezomib, as it is specifically called out as causing peripheral neuropathy in
"Drug-Induced Peripheral Neuropathy: A Narrative Review".
The risk of bortezomib induced peripheral neuropathy has been significantly reduced by changes of practice. Subq weekly dosing has much lower risk than the older practic of IV twice weekly dosing. I this the risk has gone from near 50% to about 18%. The risk of grade 3+ PN is much lower. In most cases PN starts at a mild level and builds with each dose. In most cases it be managed by dose reduction and usually goes away within a couple of months of stopping completely. Sister drug carfilzomib has a lower risk of PN, but a higher risk of temporary cardio and renal toxicity. It is about 3x as expensive, and requires IV administration.

I think that Bortezomib would be safer to use than these other anti CD20 drugs as Bortezomib doesn’t wipe out memory B cells? Do you think you would see quicker improvements as well if it was going to work?

My family thinks that maybe I should try aHSCT but that would require a trip to Mexico and intense medical therapy. Currently I am housebound and can only tolerate pretty minimal activity in order to avoid PEM.
I am definitely more comfortable woth the risk profile of bort vs CD20 antibodies. I believe bort has a quicker response time compared to both cyclophosphamide and CD20.

I hope you find a treatment that works.
 
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The risk of bortezomib induced peripheral neuropathy has been significantly reduced by changes of practice. Subq weekly dosing has much lower risk than the older practic of IV twice weekly dosing. I this the risk has gone from near 50% to about 18%. The risk of grade 3+ PN is much lower. In most cases PN starts at a mild level and builds with each dose. In most cases it be managed by dose reduction and usually goes away within a couple of months of stopping completely. Sister drug carfilzomib has a lower risk of PN, but a higher risk of temporary cardio and renal toxicity. It is about 3x as expensive, and requires IV administration.


I am definitely more comfortable woth the risk profile of bort vs CD20 antibodies. I believe bort has a quicker response time compared to both cyclophosphamide and CD20.

I hope you find a treatment that works.
Keep us updated on how the treatment goes over the next few weeks if you can. I am really curious about how you respond to it.
 
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My friend has given me permission to report her early success with cyclophosphamide. The below is my summary based on her regular updates. She has checked and approved it.

She is 36 and has had ME caused by covid since early in the pandemic. She was of moderate severity with typically 5000 steps per day. Brainfog and PEM were the symptoms that caused her the most frustration. She was (with difficulty) able to work part time remotely. She has tried many treatments since getting ill and had no response to most of them which makes it less likely she is now experiencing a placebo effect.

Before cyclophosphamide the drugs she best responded to were steroids and rapamycin in particular with regards to reduction in brainfog and prevention of PEM. This supports the idea that she is in the autoimmune subset. ME patients who respond to rapamycin are rare.

In December 2023 she did two doses of daratumumab. It gave her the expected side effects, but failed to reduce her Igg. She could not afford more daratumumab so switched to bortezomib between January and February. Bortezomib caused serious constipation and grade two neuropathy.

Although she did not notice any symptom improvement before starting cyclophosphamide then it is possible that daratumumab and bortezomib did contribute to her subsequent improvement through cumulative immunosuppression. It is well documented in autoimmune diseases that some patients will respond much better to drug A after they have taken drug B. However cyclophosphamide is likely responsible for most of the improvement that she is now experiencing.

She did five doses of IV cyclophosphamide dosed at 800mg/m2 spaced three weeks apart. The first dose was in March. This is higher and more frequent than the Norwegian protocol which starts at 600mg/m2 followed by five monthly doses of 700mg/m2. Since she did five doses not six, the cumulative dose is similar.

She felt VERY ill for several days after each dose (worse than me) and found the whole treatment period emotionally very difficult. This may have been partly caused by neuro chemical side effects of the drug, as well as the unpleasant physical side effects and the stress of self administering such a serious drug.

She experienced hair thinning and mild bladder irritation. She is still experiencing neurological foot pain, but is confident that this will pass.

She noticed a definite improvement in her symptoms after the second dose and has steadily continued to improve since then. She introduced rituximab after the third dose, but since she was already responding to cyclophosphamide it is impossible to know what if any role that is playing in her continued improvement.

Five months after her first dose she has improved from moderate to mild severity. She no longer takes rapamycin for brainfog as she says that is now 90% better and is able to do much more work with much less effort. She is able to spend much longer out of the house and do light workouts without triggering PEM. POTs is the symptom that is responding the least. It is well documented that POTs is a stubborn symptom that in some patients stays after other symptoms have gone.

Compared to most of the study participants I would say she is a very strong responder. This could partly be due to the increased dose and higher frequency of dosing. Based on the study data it is likely she will continue to improve over the coming months although no-one can predict what will happen in the long term.
 
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Messages
30
My friend has given me permission to report her early success with cyclophosphamide. The below is my summary based on her regular updates but she has checked and agrees with it.

She is 36 and has had ME caused by covid since early in the pandemic. She was of moderate severity with typically 5000 steps per day. Brainfog and PEM were the symptoms that caused her the most frustration. She was (with difficulty) able to work part time remotely. She has tried many treatments since getting ill and had no response to most of them which makes it less likely she is now experiencing a placebo effect.

Before cyclophosphamide the drugs she best responded to were steroids and rapamycin in particular with regards to reduction in brainfog and prevention of PEM. This supports the idea that she is in the autoimmune subset. ME patients who respond to rapamycin are rare.

In December 2023 she did two doses of daratumumab. It gave her the expected side effects, but failed to reduce her Igg. She could not afford more daratumumab so switched to bortezomib between January and February. Bortezomib caused serious constipation and grade two neuropathy.

Although she did not notice any symptom improvement before starting cyclophosphamide then it is possible that daratumumab and bortezomib did contribute to her subsequent improvement through cumulative immunosuppression. It is well documented in autoimmune diseases that some patients will respond much better to drug A after they have taken drug B. However cyclophosphamide is likely responsible for most of the improvement that she is now experiencing.

She did five doses of IV cyclophosphamide dosed at 800mg/m2 spaced three weeks apart. The first dose was in March. This is higher and more frequent than the Norwegian protocol which starts at 600mg/m2 followed by five monthly doses of 700mg/m2. Since she did five doses not six, the cumulative dose is similar.

She felt VERY ill for several days after each dose (worse than me) and found the whole treatment period emotionally very difficult. This may have been partly caused by neuro chemical side effects of the drug, as well as the unpleasant physical side effects and the stress of self administering such a serious drug.

She experienced hair thinning and mild bladder irritation. She is still experiencing neurological foot pain, but is confident that this will pass.

She noticed a definite improvement in her symptoms after the second dose and has steadily continued to improve since then. She introduced rituximab after the third dose, but since she was already responding to cyclophosphamide it is impossible to know what if any role that is playing in her continued improvement.

Five months after her first dose she has improved from moderate to mild severity. She no longer takes rapamycin for brainfog as she says that is now 90% better and is able to do much more work with much less effort. She is able to spend much longer out of the house and do light workouts without triggering PEM. POTs is the symptom that is responding the least. It is well documented that POTs is a stubborn symptom that in some patients stays after other symptoms have gone.

Compared to most of the study participants I would say she is a very strong responder. This could partly be due to the increased dose and higher frequency of dosing. Based on the study data it is likely she will continue to improve over the coming months although no-one can predict what will happen in the long term.
Wow thank you for the update with your friend. Being able to do all those activities again sounds like it was worth the pain she went through taking cyclophosphamide.

How did you do with the bortezomib? It doesn’t sound like your friend was a responder to that therapy. Since she tried multiple immunoglobulin lowering medication I wonder if she is getting benefit from T cell or innate immune system alterations.
 
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But low baseline IGG levels don’t support autoimmune issues.
Autoimmune issues can arise from more than just abnormal immunoglobulin levels. Those are made from B/plasma cells. One could have dysfunction with T cells or innate immune cells which would be targeted with the cyclophosphamide. Since all the cell lines of the immune system interact - low immunoglobulins could be compensating for other abnormal cell lines of the immune system.
 
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But low baseline IGG levels don’t support autoimmune issues.
Igg normal range is 6-16g/L. Her baseline was 8g which is common.

Total Igg as a biomarker of autoimmune disease is not something I know about. Could you link some info? I don’t know if Igg plays a role in all autoimmune diseases.
 
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How did you do with the bortezomib?
I am tolerating it well. The first dose left me very tired, but the next three didn’t. The last dose (after I had skipped a week per protocol) also left me very tired for a few days. The main side effects are mild fever sensation, night sweats and mild head and neck ache. Compared to cyclo its easy. Injection site reaction doesn’t bother me.

I have not checked my Igg since starting and it is too early to expect symptom improvement. I will post an update in October.
 
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I am tolerating it well. The first dose left me very tired, but the next three didn’t. The last dose (after I had skipped a week per protocol) also left me very tired for a few days. The main side effects are mild fever sensation, night sweats and mild head and neck ache. Compared to cyclo its easy. Injection site reaction doesn’t bother me.

I have not checked my Igg since starting and it is too early to expect symptom improvement. I will post an update in October.
Those symptoms definitely sound like your B cells getting depleted. When I first started Ocrevus I had flu like symptoms for a few days before it passed.

Now the only thing I notice is that I’m more prone to infections. Your immunoglobulin levels will take a few months to fall (if they ever do). My IgG levels are the same pretreatment as they are now many years later.
 
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