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Huge energy today with Grapefruit and Ubiquinol (Coenzyme Q10). We'll see about tomorrow.

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,604
Location
South east England
Yeah there is convincing evidence of mito dysfunction, but there line i am looking at is that the dysfunction is caused by inflammation of the mito and is not widespread. Just very specific areas, and dopamine increase from Q10 is having a protective, anti-inflammatory effect. Currently looking at the effect of Q10 in Parkinsons. Interesting stuff. Has pictures to!!!
 

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,604
Location
South east England
There is another aspect to all this. If a deficiency of Q10 is the cause of at least some symptoms in some sufferers how did it come about in the first place? Over the years one thing in the UK that has come up often is that people report their illness started after a course of anti bio's. I have had a look to see how the body produces Q10. Not had much luck except the it is produced 'by fermentation', in the gut I suppose. Supplement industry also produce it by fermentation. Must be a species of yeast/bacteria then. So maybe the anti bios wipe out the bodies own Q10 producing yeast/bacteria?
 
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BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
By the way, if you have a fungal toenail infection that does not seem to improve with antifungals, it may not be an infection at all, but might be psoriasis of the toe, which looks exactly like a fungal infection.

On the subject of mitochondria and antioxidants: have you looked at MitoQ, which is a special form of Q10 that is designed to concentrate in the mitochondria? There are several published studies on MitoQ. If you are gaining benefit from ordinary Q10 because it helps your mitochondrial weaknesses, then potentially MitoQ might work even better. It is unfortunately a little expensive.

Thanks for the heads up. I just looked up and read about how hard it is to distinguish a fungal toenail infection from psoriasis of the toenail. I don't have psoriasis, so I realize it's less likely. Yet, it sounds like one can have the nails be the first place for psoriasis to show up. I'll ask my podiatrist at my next appointment.

Do you know of a direct study comparing Ubiquinol versus MitoQ? I would presume my MitoD doctor is prescribing the best absorbed formula, but I'm going to be sure to ask her about MitoQ.
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
I can't take grapefruit bec it will have a dangerous interaction w a medicine I must take.
I did try a pqq/coq10 blend but didn't see any benefit. Is there a diff brand to try?would a liquid work better than a gelcap?

Hi Pink!

I'm so glad you know about your meds and grapefruit juice. It can be very serious.

My doctor said they have found a huge difference between the various CoQ10 suppliers and that the quality and quantity differ significantly. Since I'm on a prescription of Ubiquinol from the pharmacy, I can't recommend a brand. Maybe @blueberry can let you know the brand she is using.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
If a deficiency of Q10 is the cause of at least some symptoms in some sufferers how did it come about in the first place?

I think the main cause of coq10 deficiency in cfs is probably very high levels of oxidative stress, the same is true for low glutathione.

They both are used up trying to neutralize free radicals (oxidative stress), leading to low levels or deficiency.

Over the years one thing in the UK that has come up often is that people report their illness started after a course of anti bio's.

I believe dysbiosis and leaky gut are the core driver of my cfs. Toxins from an overgrowth of bacteria in my gut get into the bloodstream, cause inflammation, high levels of oxidative stress and impair the mitochondria.

The overgrowth of bacteria in my gut came from (yup, you guessed it!), too many courses of antibiotics.:)

Jim
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Do you know of a direct study comparing Ubiquinol versus MitoQ?

I am not sure about that, but there are a number of MitoQ studies on PubMed. I read that MitoQ gets into the mitochondria at 10 times the concentrations as Q10. Tempol is also very interesting, as it is a superoxide dismutase mimetic (the most important antioxidant in the mitochondria): see this post.
 
Messages
88
Just found this fascinating thread. It's amazing & uplifting to read your posts @BeautifulDay.

Sarah Myhill says in her book that she's never dealt with a cfs patient who wasn't deficient in CoQ10. That said, my partner has cfs and didn't test as deficient in CoQ10 - I've been meaning to drop Sarah Myhill a line to ask what she makes of that!
 

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
I've been taking the grapefruit juice with my Q10 since Wednesday, so far no difference noticed :(

Thanks for posting that @ljimbo423. As reports on the value of taking grapefruit vary I am wondering if some of the effect is due to the grapefruit on its own. From having a look in some books about herbal medicine one thing stands out. Its effect on insulin levels. As it lowers it slightly that should mean a slight rise in blood sugar levels and more energy. There is also a question about the other effects of Q10 on Dopamine. Not wanting to be devils advocate, but I do wonder if the 'energy increase' is a red herring and the theraputic value of Q10 has more to do with it's effect on Dopamine. But whatever is going on we can at least say it's a @BeautifulDay to be a @blueberry !
One could do a study comparing Q10 to Sinemet (levodopa). However identifying patients properly would be critical, combining ME/CFS and people with mitochondrial disorders inadvertently would give very flawed results.
My money says the Levodopa will do very little or at best a slight short lived bump.

Yeah there is convincing evidence of mito dysfunction, but there line i am looking at is that the dysfunction is caused by inflammation of the mito and is not widespread. Just very specific areas, and dopamine increase from Q10 is having a protective, anti-inflammatory effect. Currently looking at the effect of Q10 in Parkinsons. Interesting stuff. Has pictures to!!!
The problem is its a small effect or a short term one except to those who seem to want to exaggerate. It was believed it should work great because the cells that produce Dopamine die over time, so giving them more energy or antioxidants should prevent that and a lot of statistical stretching was used and even then the effect is not huge. This is a problem when you let logic overrule reality, the current theory is a protein clumps in those cells causing them to die, not inflammation or oxidation or mitochondrial failure which was believed years ago but still pushed by many. And it gets more complicated because it makes intuitive sense that these are involved and some evidence can be interpreted to make them seem true.

There is another aspect to all this. If a deficiency of Q10 is the cause of at least some symptoms in some sufferers how did it come about in the first place? Over the years one thing in the UK that has come up often is that people report their illness started after a course of anti bio's. I have had a look to see how the body produces Q10. Not had much luck except the it is produced 'by fermentation', in the gut I suppose. Supplement industry also produce it by fermentation. Must be a species of yeast then. So maybe the anti bios wipe out the bodies own Q10 producing yeast?

Coenzyme Q10 is synthesized in most human tissues. The biosynthesis of coenzyme Q10 involves three major steps: (1) synthesis of the benzoquinone structure from either tyrosine or phenylalanine, two amino acids; (2) synthesis of the isoprene side chain from acetyl-coenzyme A (CoA) via the mevalonate pathway; and (3) the joining or condensation of these two structures. The enzyme hydroxymethylglutaryl (HMG)-CoA reductase plays a critical role in the regulation of coenzyme Q10 synthesis, as well as the regulation of cholesterol synthesis (1, 6).
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/dietary-factors/coenzyme-Q10#sources

So my theory is our reduced pyruvate dehydrogenase (Fluge, Mella) leads to reduced Coenzyme A leading to reduced Q10. This would also explain why supplementing Q10 doesn't cure us, its a downstream effect of ME/CFS, but whats downstream of insufficient Q10 will respond to supplementation.
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
Here is a question, does the grapefruit take effect if taken at the same time as the Q10 or does it work for doses taken hours later after its absorbed into the body. If i understand correctly your taking the juice/Q10 several times a day so could it be that the juice affects the next Q10 instead of the concurrent one?

@Alvin2 I've wondered about that exact thing. The grapefruit juice will remain in the system for a while and I'm now taking it three times a day. In addition, different articles talk about the peak in the system being at different times. It's probably something that should be played with a little to find one's own best.

Here are some of the study summaries from my latest round of research.

Title: "The interaction effect of grapefruit juice is maximal after the first glass"
In this study, they used grapefruit juice and the medication felodipine ER tablets.
"Results: Similarly to previous single-dose studies, the treatment during the first day with grapefruit juice increased the AUC (+73%) and Cmax (+138%) of felodipine when compared with the control treatment. On day 14 a similar effect of grapefruit juice was observed, with an increased AUC24 (+57%) and Cmax (+114%) of felodipine compared with the control experiment. A significant accumulation of felodipine occurred during both the control (+37%) and grapefruit juice (+25%) period. The extent of accumulation was not significantly different in the two treatment periods."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002280050424

Title: "Content of CYP3A4 inhibitors, naringin, naringenin and bergapten in grapefruit and grapefruit juice products"
In this study, they found that "The contents of these three grapefruit constituents in commercial juice and fresh grapefruit varied from brand to brand and also from lot to lot. ..... Differences in the concentrations of these three constituents, which have potential for drug interaction, may contribute to the variability in pharmacokinetics of CYP3A4 drugs and some contradictory results of drug interaction studies with grapefruit juice."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003168659900062X

This is why there really should be a pharmaceutical version of this so that it's the same amount each time and doesn't differ.

Title: "Annual and seasonal changes in naringin concentration of ruby red grapefruit juice"
Findings "Naringen concentration of juice from the same grove and trees fluctuated during the season and varied considerably between crop years."
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00106a031?journalCode=jafcau

Title: "Effect of Maturity, Processing, and Storage on the Furanocoumarin Composition of Grapefruit and Grapefruit Juice"
Findings: "This research provides information on how grapefruit drug interaction potential of grapefruit juice products are affected by processing and storage of juice products. Shelf stable products stored at room temperature in cans and glass containers will have lower levels of FCs (furanocoumarins) compared to fresh products made from the same juice. Those wishing to minimize drug interaction potential in grapefruit products may do so by heating to pasteurization temperatures for 30 to 60 min. However, this will only lower and not eliminate the drug interaction potential."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1750-3841.2011.02147.x

Does this mean that for those looking to increase absorption of CoQ10, that we should be looking for grapefruit juice that has not been pasteurized and has been refrigerated? Sounds like another study I'd like to seen done.

I've had the choice of buying bottled grapefruit juice room temperature off grocery shelves and red grapefruit juice from the refrigerator section of the grocery store. All three brands that I've bought were pasteurized. I'm not sure that I could find un-pasteurized even if I looked for it. I've been buying the refrigerated version because it cost the same. I'd like to see a study on the refrigerated version to see if it is higher in absorption. But then again, what I'd really like is an extended release pill with a true quantity.

Title: "The Use of Heat Treatment to Eliminate Drug Interactions Due to Grapefruit Juice"
"In the present study, it was found that the heat treatment of grapefruit juice decreases concentrations of BG and DHB as well as their interactions both in vitro and in vivo. We incubated GJ for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 min at 37, 62, 72, and 95 °C; FCs in each sample were then measured, using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). The concentrations of BG and DHB were decreased in a time- and temperature-dependent manner, by 82.5 and 97.9% respectively, after incubation for 1 h at 95 °C. In contrast, the concentration of bergaptrol (BT) increased in a time- and temperature-dependent manner (27.7% after 60 min at 95 °C). In addition, the effect of each GJ sample on testosterone 6β-oxidation in human liver microsomes was observed. The inhibitory effects of GJ heated to 95 °C were decreased in a time-dependent manner, as in the case of BG and DHB concentrations. Furthermore, 2 ml of GJ treated for 60 min at 95 °C was administered into the rat duodenum. After 30 min, nifedipine (NFP) was administered intraduodenally at a dose of 3 mg/kg body weight. The concentrations of NFP in the plasma samples were determined by HPLC. No significant increase in the AUC of NFP was observed in the rats given heat-treated GJ. These results suggest that the heat treatment of GJ reduces the concentrations of FCs, thus eliminating the potential for drug interactions."
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/29/11/29_11_2274/_article/-char/ja/

Title: "Variation in the content of bioactive flavonoids in different brands of orange and grapefruit juices"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889157505000803

Title: "Interaction of White and Pink Grapefruit Juice with Acetaminophen (Paracetamol) In Vivo in Mice"
"Abstract: Grapefruit juice increases bioavailability of a number of drugs because of inhibition of the P-glycoprotein pump and inhibition of intestinal cytochrome P450 3A4 enzyme. However, interaction between acetaminophen (also known as paracetamol in many parts of the world) and grapefruit juice has never been reported. The interaction of grapefruit juice with acetaminophen was examined in an in vivo mouse model. BALB/c mice were fed 200 μL of white grapefruit juice or pink grapefruit juice by oral gavage (three mice in each group) followed by oral delivery of 10, 50, or 100 mg/kg acetaminophen 1 hour later. Blood was withdrawn from the retro-orbital venous plexus at 1 hour and 2 hours after feeding with acetaminophen. The concentrations of acetaminophen in sera of mice were determined by fluorescence polarization immunoassay. White grapefruit juice increased concentrations of acetaminophen in mice both 1 hour and 2 hours after feeding compared to controls. In contrast, pink grapefruit juice increased acetaminophen concentrations 2 hours after feeding compared to controls. Because acetaminophen is almost completely absorbed these effects seems to be related to increased elimination half-life of acetaminophen because of interaction with grapefruit juice.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2008.0059
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
I did not have a good night at all. I don't know if coq10 and grapefruit juice played much of a role though.

I stayed up too late and it seems when I do that then I'm awake really really late and can't fall asleep. Then when I do fall asleep I wake up a lot.

I feel terrible this morning and have a headache. I've had a lot of nights like this lately though.

@sissypop I'm so sorry you are not feeling well. Sleep is so important. My body for months (long before grapefruit) has been in the mode of early to bed and early to rise with a few hours up in the middle of the night. Thanks to @Alvin2 I now refer to it as first sleep and second sleep. I wish I could sleep through the night, but I'm not there yet. Years ago I went through a phase where I slept very little. At that point the doctors were looking at my brain MRIs for possible CJD because some of my symptoms were similar at the time. Not sleeping was the worst. I felt like I was losing my mind.
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
http://www.q10facts.com/key-coenzyme-q10-numbers/

I have experienced a BIG increase in energy in the last 3 weeks, after going up from 100 to 400mg coq10 a day and a dramatic reduction in PEM. Both a reduction in the intensity of PEM and the duration! I'm not taking grapefruit with it either.

I have noticed my biggest increase in energy after about 6-8 hours of taking a 400mg dose of coq10.

Which is when it reaches it's peak blood level. There is a whole page of coq10 facts on the page in the link I posted.:)

Jim

Thanks @ljimbo423 Very interesting.
 

blueberry

Senior Member
Messages
103
Location
west yorkshire
Hi Pink!

I'm so glad you know about your meds and grapefruit juice. It can be very serious.

My doctor said they have found a huge difference between the various CoQ10 suppliers and that the quality and quantity differ significantly. Since I'm on a prescription of Ubiquinol from the pharmacy, I can't recommend a brand. Maybe @blueberry can let you know the brand she is using.
@Pink I'm using Dr's Best kaneka 200mg caps. So far so good! Yesterday work +vet appointment + cooked a meal in the evening. Must add that I've been back on my herbal medicine the last week, but I had noticed benefits from the CoQ10 and grapefruit in the week before. (The herbs are mostly anti-virals).
 

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
2,109
Location
Seattle, WA USA
I've ordered this recently (not arrived yet), and have a bottle of ruby red grapefruit juice at home just waiting for the coQ10. I got the stuff that @grapes suggests, so hoping it a/ works good, and b/ I can maybe use a little less if using grapefruit also. Grapefruit does mess with the medicines I'm on, but I've decided I don't care.

Is this something that needs to be taken daily? Or can I use it only on weekends when I need to wash my clothes and cook for a week?

Also, I can't remember if it stops PEM? (sorry I don't have time to go back and read again... I'm struggling through work today)
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
I've ordered this recently (not arrived yet), and have a bottle of ruby red grapefruit juice at home just waiting for the coQ10. I got the stuff that @grapes suggests, so hoping it a/ works good, and b/ I can maybe use a little less if using grapefruit also. Grapefruit does mess with the medicines I'm on, but I've decided I don't care.

Is this something that needs to be taken daily? Or can I use it only on weekends when I need to wash my clothes and cook for a week?

Also, I can't remember if it stops PEM? (sorry I don't have time to go back and read again... I'm struggling through work today)

Hi @Strawberry

I'm worried. What medications are you on? Some medications can turn into overdoses on grapefruit and grapefruit juice. It's important to look up each medication and potential effect before starting grapefruit or grapefruit juice. Please don't start grapefruit or grapefruit juice if it says not to.
 

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
2,109
Location
Seattle, WA USA
My main ones to worry about are amlodipine (for high blood pressure) and zyrtec. Dr Google says grapefruit makes amlodipine stronger, but I take that at bedtime and will only have one small cup of juice (+ one small dose coQ10) in the morning for now. Zyrtec gets weaker, but I think my neuroprotek and vit c will keep that in balance. Besides, I found grapefruit has quercitin, so it should add to my neuroprotek and minimize allergies. But I can handle a runny nose if I get a bit of energy! I won't take my BCAAs and other stuff that I usually make my weekend "energy drink" because I haven't researched to see if anything is known about those interacting.

Thanks for caring!

(ps I will take my blood pressure all day to make sure it isn't interacting strongly)
 

blueberry

Senior Member
Messages
103
Location
west yorkshire
I've ordered this recently (not arrived yet), and have a bottle of ruby red grapefruit juice at home just waiting for the coQ10. I got the stuff that @grapes suggests, so hoping it a/ works good, and b/ I can maybe use a little less if using grapefruit also. Grapefruit does mess with the medicines I'm on, but I've decided I don't care.

Is this something that needs to be taken daily? Or can I use it only on weekends when I need to wash my clothes and cook for a week?

Also, I can't remember if it stops PEM? (sorry I don't have time to go back and read again... I'm struggling through work today)
My experience so far in terms of this protocol and PEM is this; I work three days a week, and to accommodate this, I am mostly in bed/resting/ gently pottering around the house on the other days. I have PEM on the non-working days, BUT with the protocol, I am able to do a little more on my "active" days without worsening the PEM the following day. So, basically, small but precious improvement to energy and activity levels without worsening of PEM.
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
My main ones to worry about are amlodipine (for high blood pressure) and zyrtec. Dr Google says grapefruit makes amlodipine stronger, but I take that at bedtime and will only have one small cup of juice (+ one small dose coQ10) in the morning for now. Zyrtec gets weaker, but I think my neuroprotek and vit c will keep that in balance. Besides, I found grapefruit has quercitin, so it should add to my neuroprotek and minimize allergies. But I can handle a runny nose if I get a bit of energy! I won't take my BCAAs and other stuff that I usually make my weekend "energy drink" because I haven't researched to see if anything is known about those interacting.

Thanks for caring!

(ps I will take my blood pressure all day to make sure it isn't interacting strongly)

@Strawberry Yes, please be careful.

In researching amiodpine and grapefruit, below was the first study I came across.
"CONCLUSION:
An interaction between grapefruit juice and amlodipine was demonstrated. The haemodynamic data showed that a dose of 5 mg was sufficient to achieve a BP reduction in healthy subjects, but the increase in amlodipine plasma concentration seen after intake of grapefruit juice was too small to significantly affect BP or HR. The clinical significance of this food/drug interaction, however, cannot be ignored since there is considerable variation between individuals and a more extensive intake of grapefruit juice might give more pronounced effects."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8911887
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
Update. I'm still having more energy. There are ups and downs, but my normal has definitely stayed higher. This past weekend, my husband went out chainsawing the huge tree branches that came down during the last storm. I helped for a few hours (with a few 10 minute breaks) by pulling the large branches out front for the township's branch pick up. My neighbors must have been confused.

I know some of you have asked if since adding in grapefruit/grapefruit juice if my other symptoms (symptoms other than fatigue) have lessened also. Today was the first day that I realized since starting grapefruit/grapefruit juice that I am having a severe bout of gastroparesis. I should have realized it yesterday, but it wasn't so severe yesterday. So today, I'm laying on my left side (now and then to help with digestion) and on a liquid diet until it dissipates (still keeping up with ubiquinol and grapefruit juice).

For years, I have had intermittent severe bouts of gastroparesis (with a few hospital visits), so this is not out of my normal. On the days when it wasn't severe (all the other days over the last few years), I had to keep an eye on what I was eating because my stomach otherwise has gastroparesis light (meaning my stomach digests food very slowly even on good days so easily digestible foods (think white pasta) is my stomach's friend).

Since I've been feeling better and cooking more, I have the energy to watch what I'm eating better (grocery shop more often, etc...). Therefore, I'm eating more fruits and veggies (rather than easily digestible junk food). Blueberry, apple, grape skins, etc... are hard for me to digest when eaten in larger quantities. Yesterday, I had blueberries, an apple, grapes, baked potato with skin, etc..... Having a bout of severe gastroparesis with all those skins in my belly has left me with a lump and temporarily no desire to eat.
 

hmnr asg

Senior Member
Messages
563
hi everyone,
so after reading this thread i bought some of the "Ocean Spray 100% Juice, Ruby Red Grapefruit Blend":
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0T1HPI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And I normally take CoQ10:
https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formu...ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1521755894&sr=8-4

I started chugging the grapefruit juice since last week, more than one glass a day ( it tasted so damn good!) .
anyways, its been a week, and i notice zero difference.
of course responses are variable as its been mentioned, just wanted to share my experience. I think negative results are results nonetheless.

H