High Dose Selenium Significantly Improves My Fatigue and Brain Fog

Does selenium 400 mcg daily help your CFS? Have an active enterovirus infection, tested at ARUP Lab?

  • Selenium DID NOT HELP. My ARUP Lab tests showed I HAVE an active enterovirus infection

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I imagine this immediate benefit you are feeling will be something along the lines of the dopaminergic boost that @Tunguska posted above.

In my case, I get no immediate benefits from selenium, but after around 10 days taking it, my ME/CFS is noticeably improved.
With all due respect @Hip but how can you specifically relate knackers323's comment of:

"I am noticing a pretty big improvement a few hours after taking big doses of selenium. 700mcg."

Uniquely to dopaminergic boost?
 

Hip

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With all due respect @Hip but how can you specifically relate knackers323's comment of:

"I am noticing a pretty big improvement a few hours after taking big doses of selenium. 700mcg."

Uniquely to dopaminergic boost?
What I said was that knackers323's experience of an immediate benefit from selenium will be something along the lines of the dopaminergic boost that @Tunguska posted above; ie, it doesn't have to be specifically dopamine.

Obviously if you feel benefits in a matter of hours, this is far too short a time to be due to an antiviral effect. Myself I notice benefits only after 10 days on selenium, so in my case, an antiviral mechanism could well explain these benefits. But if you notice benefits in a matter of hours of taking selenium, then this is more likely to be due to physiological mechanism that can respond very quickly, such a neurotransmitter levels, hormone levels, or inflammatory responses.
 
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I understand what your saying, you did only state the dopaminergic effect in your comment though, based on knackers323's rather limited description

Do you have any thing to reference in regards to Se "boosting" dopaminergic effects within a few hours?

I really would like to read anything in relation to that, as I have found multiple nutrients taking at least two weeks to have any effect in that regard. Thanks
 

Hip

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Do you have any thing to reference in regards to Se "boosting" dopaminergic effects within a few hours?
The study posted by Tunguska above is the one that started the talk of dopamine. Not sure of the exact times scale of the increased dopamine overflow elicited by the selenium injection, but I would think it was fast. But I would not assume that a dopaminergic boost was necessarily the explanation.

The other thing that needs an explanation is the fact that lots of people on found selenium overstimulating, and had to discontinue use because of this.
 
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The study posted by Tunguska above is the one that started the talk of dopamine. Not sure of the exact times scale of the increased dopamine overflow elicited by the selenium injection, but I would think it was fast. But I would not assume that a dopaminergic boost was necessarily the explanation.

The other thing that needs an explanation is the fact that lots of people on found selenium overstimulating, and had to discontinue use because of this.
Oh. I have always been dubious when Rats are used as the test subject, as I do not believe the results always have a direct correlation with Humans. I find it interesting that knackers323 also states "improved skin effects" as increasing GSH levels can effect the skin - GSH is used via injection across Asia as a "skin whitening agent"

Like I previously commented, Se can increase GSH levels and or function
 

Tunguska

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Sorry I wish I had access to the full article.

Personally I found higher dose selenium (400-600mcg/day) to have a slight effect on brain fog the same day. I think closest to what NAC did for me (which works in tandem with Se, and also some links to dopamine). From other experiments it's become clear my dopamine doesn't work right so, being unable to identify the real cause - I assume it's a symptom, I'll take anything elemental that compensates or contributes directly or indirectly. I wouldn't describe its effect alone as particularly "dopaminergic" compared to others though.
 
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Sorry I wish I had access to the full article.

Personally I found higher dose selenium (400-600mcg/day) to have a slight effect on brain fog the same day. I think closest to what NAC did for me (which works in tandem with Se, and also some links to dopamine). From other experiments it's become clear my dopamine doesn't work right so, being unable to identify the real cause - I assume it's a symptom, I'll take anything elemental that compensates or contributes directly or indirectly. I wouldn't describe its effect alone as particularly "dopaminergic" compared to others though.
@Tunguska

Tyrosine + Phenylaline + Velvet bean extract + P5P on empty stomach = wicked increase in Dopamine, for me anyway. Felt it within a week
 

Tunguska

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@Tunguska

Tyrosine + Phenylaline + Velvet bean extract + P5P on empty stomach = wicked increase in Dopamine, for me anyway. Felt it within a week
Thanks, I've more or less already tried that though, minus the velvet bean extract (I had to look that up; it's an L-dopa source, right?). Tyrosine was great (and felt a bit different from the selenium and NAC here) but lost effect after a week. I still take it but with food. Trying to figure out uridine which had a stronger effect.
 
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Thanks, I've more or less already tried that though, minus the velvet bean extract (I had to look that up; it's an L-dopa source, right?). Tyrosine was great (and felt a bit different from the selenium and NAC here) but lost effect after a week. I still take it but with food. Trying to figure out uridine which had a stronger effect.
Yes, Velvet bean extract contains L-Dopa - which is what they give to Parkinson's Disease patients. In combination on an empty stomach, have found more effective then anything else I have ever tried for dopamine. A friend of mine gave me this protocol, it has worked really well for him also
 

knackers323

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Se raising my glut levels may be there reason for the effects but I have taken liposomal glutathione before and didn't get the same effects.
 

adreno

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Do you guys feel any difference between different forms of Se? For example, selenocysteine might increase glutathione levels more than selenomethionine.
 
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Again, going back to the forms of Se out there, there are basically 2 kinds, organic and inorganic. Inorganic Se is Sodium Selenite and Selenate. Inorganic Se is excreted by the body rite away after being metabolised and the organic ones methionine and cysteine take longer to excrete. The reason for this is when the Se is absorbed, bound to an amino acid, the body cannot recognise it. It is actually taken up as an amino acid and gets absorbed (and used) into tissue that needs that amino acid. We don't want this to happen we want the Se to be avail to make real selenoproteins, especially the ezymes that depend on Se to work.

Another point is that Se can bind to Mercury (Hg), its one of the few things that can bind to Hg and take it out of circulation in the body.

*An organic compound is basically anything thing that has a carbon (C) atom in it.

The form of Se it is in is really very important in fact, the most popular one, selenomethionine may turn out to be the most toxic one becos it is stored the longest.
Hi Undcvr ,

This is very interesting and valuable information. See your highlighted statement above. If the Selenium is so tightly bound to the Amino Acid Methionine for example, and is then absorbed and utilized as a protein in the body, then this supplement is an excellent vehicle to transport relatively high concentrations of Selenium into cells that we would like to kill [ Cancer Cells] or into cells that are infected with viruses. For example, the Coxsackie virus has been found in a very high percentage of CFIDS sufferers who happen to have Fibromyalgia. The virus is found many times in muscle tissue which may be causing the tissue pain of Fibromyalgia. This means that possibly through taking Selenomethionine , and doing muscular exercise, we can transport the ingested Selenium to those cells and kill off the virus assuming correct dosages are applied.

Another Topic: Somebody asked about Selenium Supplement brands. Wow, quality of the supplement in various brands really varies. I tried the GNC brand Selenium and it had zero effect on my body nomatter how it was taken. When I took the "Good N Natural " Selenium Yeast extract supplement at the same dosage of the GNC brand, 200 mcg, there was no comparison at all. This Selenium could be felt improving skin color, improving hair and improving my resistance to infection, and boosting energy levels to new highs. I tried 400 mcg daily for months and felt that its antiviral properties are strongly apparent at these levels just as HIP said.

Abdulrahman

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Hip

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Wow, quality of the supplement in various brands really varies. I tried the GNC brand Selenium and it had zero effect on my body nomatter how it was taken.

When I took the "Good N Natural " Selenium Yeast extract supplement at the same dosage of the GNC brand, 200 mcg, there was no comparison at all. This Selenium could be felt improving skin color, improving hair and improving my resistance to infection, and boosting energy levels to new highs.

I tried 400 mcg daily for months and felt that its antiviral properties are strongly apparent at these levels just as HIP said.
Selenium yeast is produced by fermenting Saccharomyces cerevisiae (baker's/brewer's yeast) in a selenium rich substrate. This creates a yeast high in selenium that can be used as a selenium supplement.

However, the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae just on its own has potent immunomodulatory effects, and I suspect this may be the reason you found "Good N Natural" Selenium Yeast extract improved your resistance to infection and boosted your energy levels.
"Yeast species such as Saccharomyces cerevisiae are known to be potent activators of the immune system. Saccharomyces cerevisiae activates the innate immune system by engaging pattern recognition receptors such as toll like receptor 2 and dectin-1."
Source: here.
If so, if you got benefits from selenium yeast, you might consider trying the supplement Epicor, which is pure Saccharomyces cerevisiae.


However, I have problems with Epicor and other Saccharomyces cerevisiae products, presumably because the immune responses this yeast induces are too strong. I find both Epicor and selenium yeast supplements dramatically increase my depression levels. I am guessing this may be because it increases interferon secretions, and interferon is known to significantly ramp up depression. I find many Th1/Th2 immunomodulator supplements cause me to get increased depression.

So for anyone like me who is sensitive Saccharomyces cerevisiae, I would suggest using the yeast-free selenomethionine, not the yeast-derived selenomethionine.
 
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If you look at the studies I cited above — studies regarding the antiviral and protective effects of selenium in coxsackievirus B and echovirus cardiac infections — some of the studies found that taking selenium and vitamin E had a synergistic antiviral effect. Though in my own tests of taking 400 to 800 IU of vitamin E in addition to selenium, I found no added benefits in terms of improving my ME/CFS symptoms.

My hunch is that the antiviral and protective effects of selenium against coxsackievirus B and echovirus infections may be the main reason for selenium's benefits in ME/CFS.

Let me give you some excerpts from those viral studies cited above. These studies focus on enterovirus heart infections, but I think their findings will also apply to ME/CFS, which is may well be caused by an enterovirus infection of the central and peripheral nervous systems:

This last study above is particularly interesting, as it suggests that the lack of glutathione peroxidase, an antioxidant derived from selenium, causes coxsackievirus B to undergo genetic changes in the body and become more virulent.


Hi Hip,

Since you are very interested in the study of minerals in human Biochemistry, i have another explanation for the anti-viral effect of Selenium in muscle tissue such as heart tissue, or in Organ tissue such as Liver and Kidneys. All of these organs have a very high tissue concentration of Selenium in the healthy human being as compared to normal tissue concentrations. The microbiologists have linked the anti-viral behavior of this Selenium by theorizing that the Glutathione Peroxidase is responsible for damaging the virus as it attacks the heart muscle tissue. The first evidence for the role of Selenium in human biofiunction was the discovery that Keshan disease, a viral infection of heart tissue, was caused by extra low levels or depleted levels of Selenium in human heart tissues at Keshan province in the 1970's in China. The deeper root cause was that the Keshan Province soil and water was highly depleted in Selenium. The lack of Selenium in diet caused many residents to have viral infections of the heart tissues leading to death.

My view is the following: For all of these highly critical organs the human body must protect its crown jewels, the organs by every possible method from attacks of Bacteria and Viruses of all types throughout the human lifetime. To be able to resist these microorganisms, these specific organ tissues cells purposely seek out and incorporate from the bloodstream higher amounts of Selenium which is normally circulating in the blood.

The higher tissue cell concentration of Selenium then acts as a Shield that is both anti-viral and anti-bacterial as the viruses for example cannot survive living in such cells with SE, since this mineral is a Poison to the viral biofunctions. For the same reason you will find another very critical mineral Copper CU being utilized and incorporated at very high concentration in the Organ tissues as Copper is another mineral poisonous to Bacteria and Viruses. This is a second part of the Mineral Defense Shield that is incorporated into the cellular structure. These two minerals concentration in humans vary depending upon how much was ingested from human nutrition as they are both rare minerals. This means that in the majority of foods, a trace amount is found. To this day their full role has still not been adequately understood for their highly critical functions.

All of these minerals are best utilized in their organic form as this maximizes their absorption into tissue. For example, the organic copper is very healthy to human tissue while the mineral copper when ingested from say copper piping is a pollutant to the body and unhealthy. The human body does not want minerals in the mineral form; it needs minerals incorporated into an Organic structure to be properly absorbed as you know. Taking them in their Organic form means taking them from plants which have already converted them from mineral form in the soil, into an organic structure in the leaves, root, or seeds [Brazil nut is a seed]. Another source is to obtain such minerals from Animal sources such as the Liver which acts as a storage in the Animal body for Copper and some other minerals.

Abdulrahman
 
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Hi Hip,

Since you are very interested in the study of minerals in human Biochemistry, i have another explanation for the anti-viral effect of Selenium in muscle tissue such as heart tissue, or in Organ tissue such as Liver and Kidneys. All of these organs have a very high tissue concentration of Selenium in the healthy human being as compared to normal tissue concentrations. The microbiologists have linked the anti-viral behavior of this Selenium by theorizing that the Glutathione Peroxidase is responsible for damaging the virus as it attacks the heart muscle tissue. The first evidence for the role of Selenium in human biofiunction was the discovery that Keshan disease, a viral infection of heart tissue, was caused by extra low levels or depleted levels of Selenium in human heart tissues at Keshan province in the 1970's in China. The deeper root cause was that the Keshan Province soil and water was highly depleted in Selenium. The lack of Selenium in diet caused many residents to have viral infections of the heart tissues leading to death.

My view is the following: For all of these highly critical organs the human body must protect its crown jewels, the organs by every possible method from attacks of Bacteria and Viruses of all types throughout the human lifetime. To be able to resist these microorganisms, these specific organ tissues cells purposely seek out and incorporate from the bloodstream higher amounts of Selenium which is normally circulating in the blood.

The higher tissue cell concentration of Selenium then acts as a Shield that is both anti-viral and anti-bacterial as the viruses for example cannot survive living in such cells with SE, since this mineral is a Poison to the viral biofunctions. For the same reason you will find another very critical mineral Copper CU being utilized and incorporated at very high concentration in the Organ tissues as Copper is another mineral poisonous to Bacteria and Viruses. This is a second part of the Mineral Defense Shield that is incorporated into the cellular structure. These two minerals concentration in humans vary depending upon how much was ingested from human nutrition as they are both rare minerals. This means that in the majority of foods, a trace amount is found. To this day their full role has still not been adequately understood for their highly critical functions.

All of these minerals are best utilized in their organic form as this maximizes their absorption into tissue. For example, the organic copper is very healthy to human tissue while the mineral copper when ingested from say copper piping is a pollutant to the body and unhealthy. The human body does not want minerals in the mineral form; it needs minerals incorporated into an Organic structure to be properly absorbed as you know. Taking them in their Organic form means taking them from plants which have already converted them from mineral form in the soil, into an organic structure in the leaves, root, or seeds [Brazil nut is a seed]. Another source is to obtain such minerals from Animal sources such as the Liver which acts as a storage in the Animal body for Copper and some other minerals.

Abdulrahman
Thank you @Abdulrahman

So much better to do your OWN research and learn through practical experience like your post seems to relay

Of note taking 400mcg Se per day as @Hip recommended, has boosted my mental sharpness and overall fatigue which was notable around the 7 day mark. In all honesty I wasn't expecting much however I am now pleasantly surprised
 

Hip

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Of note taking 400mcg Se per day as @Hip recommended, has boosted my mental sharpness and overall fatigue which was notable around the 7 day mark. In all honesty I wasn't expecting much however I am now pleasantly surprised
That's interesting, @end. I think you are the first person on this thread that experienced the same sort of benefits as I did with selenium. Most people here reported that selenium unfortunately caused them too much mental stimulation, such that they could not continue taking it.


What I notice is that if I stop taking selenium, quite quickly, after around 3 or 4 days, I will start to feel worse again. I have tried stopping on many occasions, and I always this this same result of feeling worse after around 3 or 4 days.
 
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My experiments with selenium in the past led me too feel too dampened psychologically. Hard to describe but I guess you could say it induces a brain fog and reduces my pleasure. I did it for things along the lines of brain antioxidant in particular I think it protects against amphetamine induced toxicity. Not that I was taking amphetamines, only coffee. Though I thought it would be a good idea.