Herpes Veridai protocol (5-ar inhibitors)

[godlovesatrier]

Wanted to seperate this from the main thread for tracking as it's getting a bit crowded.

So the 5-ar inhibitors you mentioned @jump44 - which are they in the protocol?

Quote from jump44's comments in original thread:

godlovesatrier said:
Interesting replies here. All interesting reading too

The covid vaccine is making me grumpy and depressed at the minute. Immune reaction is pretty much on most of the time. So not pleasant. But still have plenty of energy. Feels utterly bizarre to spend most of the time able to just do "loads" of menial jobs and the like. Although mental clarity isn't great as I said due to the covid vax.



What are the issues? Does it induce disease or lower t cell counts? Like Tagamet? Be interested to know.

Although like you based on my experiences so far I'll take this as a treatment until more science emerges.

@xebex you describe the same crash style as me. Sleepy then I rest, then it usually bottoms out or I have 48 hours of PEM and then it usually starts to lift. Although initially when I did the protocol PEM was much worse and seemed to go on for up to a week. This eventually lifted with the higher egcg dose which seemed to be critical to be honest as a protocol supp.

I used to get all the aches and pains you got but since taking Andrographis Paniculata all those pains went. This was a few years ago and I totally dismissed it as irrelevant. But now it makes me wonder when I took andro I had pain in the same places. Had to be viral?

Really pleased your doing well @BrightCandle and thanks for clarifying about him/her Hope the vaccine helps your long covid!

jump44 reply

look up post finasteride or accutane syndromes online and you’ll find plenty of horror stories of men taking these 5ar inhibitors and being severely damaged.. now, I -am not- saying that the ones in this protocol do the same thing… however there are a few of them in here being taken at high dosages- and it appears Joshua is saying it’s a main goal of this is to really knock down/block the androgen receptors etc. Tjis isn’t something males should necessarily be taking lightly if they are predisposed to issues(which unfortunately there’s no way to really tell beforehand), so it’s just something I’ve had In the back of my mind.

Also I found this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11931850/

The enzyme steroid 5 alpha-reductase (EC 1.3.99.5) catalyzes the NADPH-dependent reduction of the double bond of a variety of 3-oxo-Delta(4) steroids including the conversion of testosterone to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone. In humans, 5 alpha-reductase activity is critical for certain aspects of male sexual differentiation, and may be involved in the development of benign prostatic hyperplasia, alopecia, hirsutism, and prostate cancer. Certain natural products contain components that are inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase, such as the green tea catechin (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG). EGCG shows potent inhibition in cell-free but not in whole-cell assays of 5 alpha-reductase. Replacement of the gallate ester in EGCG with long-chain fatty acids produced potent 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors that were active in both cell-free and whole-cell assay systems. Other flavonoids that were potent inhibitors of the type 1 5alpha-reductase include myricetin, quercitin, baicalein, and fisetin. Biochanin A, daidzein, genistein, and kaempferol were much better inhibitors of the type 2 than the type 1 isozyme. Several other natural and synthetic polyphenolic compounds were more effective inhibitors of the type 1 than the type 2 isozyme, including alizarin, anthrarobin, gossypol, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, caffeic acid phenethyl ester, and octyl and dodecyl gallates. The presence of a catechol group was characteristic of almost all inhibitors that showed selectivity for the type 1 isozyme of 5 alpha-reductase. Since some of these compounds are consumed as part of the normal diet or in supplements, they have the potential to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase activity, which may be useful for the prevention or treatment of androgen-dependent disorders. However, these compounds also may adversely affect male sexual differentiation.

cc @joshua.leisk

 

[godlovesatrier]

@Pyrrhus not sure if you know anything about these too.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Just a thought would a DHT and androgen hormone blood test every 3 months be a good way to check to see that dht is still being generated appropriately?

From Wikipedia:

5

-ARIs are most known for preventing conversion of testosterone, the major androgen sex hormone, to the more potent androgen dihydrotestosterone (DHT), in certain androgen-associated disorders.

https://medichecks.com/products/dihydrotestosterone-blood-test

A blood test to measure your levels of dihydrotestosterone, the male hormone responsible for testicular dysfunction and male pattern baldness in older men.

£102

https://medichecks.com/products/male-hormone-check-blood-test
£63

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

If I were a guy, I'd find this definitely troublesome ....

 

[godlovesatrier]

cc @BrightCandle @Reading_Steiner @Boba

 

[jump44]

Thx @godlovesatrier for creating the thread. I shouldn’t have included accutane although it has similar side effects it’s not a 5ar inhibitor. Prostate drugs like svodart etc are similar to finasteride. Joshua has made no secret that androgen reduction/blocking is a huge part of his protocol and necessary. I’d guess it’s ok and safe for short term; however I’d hate to be on this protocol for an extended period in order to remove infections and then be rid of some or most cfs only to be finding out I have other issues with these things. I had a terrible reaction to saw palmetto(potent 5ar inhibitor) years ago that took forever to recover from so I suspect I’m sensitive to these things.I already have minimal low libido fro the cfs so… Anyways it’s good people are at least aware of this.

You asked on the other thread what the androgen disrupters on the protocol are..reishi is known for this as is the ecgc-especially at high dosages. Wether this is balanced by other aspects of the treatment is unknown to me.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Interesting your Palmetto experience. I also took this because I thought I had some prostate issues and felt pretty weird on it. However I don't remember it ever impacting my erections or anything like that. So possibly they do have a horrid effect on you. Sorry to hear that!

Well it seems like egcg might be a potent 5-ar inhibitor but the above study I qouted gives me the impression that they really don't know if it has a real effect on levels because of the way they describe the cell actions. But I'm no scientist.

I'll see what everyone says. Thanks for mentioning it I hadn't really spotted this to be honest even though I'm sure your right and certainly didn't think it was a secret

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Read at Wikipedia that a study found that over 90 % fully recover .... and perhaps we don’t block the receptors permanently? @joshua.leisk tried to explain it but brain fogged af

 

[godlovesatrier]

More here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683253/
2009
Soy Phytochemicals and Tea Bioactive Components Synergistically Inhibit Androgen-Sensitive Human Prostate Tumors in Mice

On the other hand, green tea did not reduce the serum level of DHT, but instead tended to increase it (P = 0.076) (Fig. 2D), and we found that green tea treatment did not inhibit tumor growth (Fig. 1A). Green tea contained more EGCG than black tea (Table 1), and studies have shown that EGCG inhibits the activity of 5α-reductase (38). These results derived from our animal model suggest that, although EGCG may be a potent antitumor agent in green tea and inhibit 5α-reducatase activity, green tea contains other constituents that may counteract EGCG's antitumor activity, in part by counteracting its modulation of 5α-reducatase activity. Further research is required to identify these constituents and study their effects and/or their interactions with other components on prostate cancer. Our results demonstrate the importance of evaluating the benefit of whole tea products, rather than just isolated tea catechins or EGCG, on prostate cancer prevention because other tea constituents may play important roles.

Can't actually figure out if this means egcg doesn't lower dht levels and if that's the desired effect vs the expected which was that it would lower it not increase it?

 

[godlovesatrier]

@Martin aka paused||M.E. think I saw that too a minute ago, and based on what I just posted that might be the case? Was having a little difficulty fully understanding what I qouted lol.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Oh and this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...fects,intracellular ROS levels and senescence.
2016
Epigallocatechin Gallate-Mediated Alteration of the MicroRNA Expression Profile in 5α-Dihydrotestosterone-Treated Human Dermal Papilla Cells

Results
EGCG protected against the effects of DHT by altering the miRNA expression profile in human DPCs. In addition, EGCG attenuated DHT-mediated cell death and growth arrest and decreased intracellular ROS levels and senescence. A bioinformatics analysis elucidated the relationship between the altered miRNA expression and EGCG-mediated protective effects against DHT.

 

[Judee]

I have no idea if this article would be of help but I found it some months back when I was trying to raise my estrogen levels.

It's an article for men but I just saved it and planned to do everything the opposite of his recommendations.

https://wildwarriornutrition.com/blog/foods-high-in-estrogen

He's also talking about all the things men shouldn't eat because they block testosterone.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Thanks Judee. I'm not sure if the amount of soy I'm eating per day would be counteracting any increases in T but maybe. Still I'll just get a hormone panel in a month or two I think

 

[joshua.leisk]

Best way to explain this briefly before I pass out for the night - we’re “balancing” the hormones, as DHT is too high, testosterone is too low, estrogen is slightly too low and LH/FSH are low.

Your DHEA would also normally help do this, but it’s typically low here, also.

Once DHT is back into the optimal range, the other hormones also come back up to optimal range.

In a nutshell, the high DHT is suppressing the HPG and helping drive up GDH.

So maybe the word “blocking” isn’t a good description, I guess. “Normalising” may be more appropriate.

The preference here is to bring 3-HSD up rather than 5-AR down.

I’ll write more about this tomorrow. If it helps anyone, I’m currently taking all of these myself.

Prior to being seduced into CFS/ME research, I was partway through a writing a book on endocrinology, which rewrites many decades of old data and ideas, using information from recent studies that now require reinterpreting all of the old ones with this new information.

Probably best I hadn’t finished it, as my mitochondria and metabolism research here is going to require me to go back and redo sections of that book anyway.

 

[jump44]

Thanks for replying ,Joshua. The balancing aspect makes sense. For me however my testosterone was only really low at the beginning of my illness- low enough in fact to get prescribed testosterone. My levels got better though but I did have relatively low free testosterone with super high shbg. Meaning it wasn’t being utilized. Everything I’ve read says that points to a liver issue. I suspect thyroid has always been more of a problem in my case as even now I can take a bit of thyroid(even T4 which is supposed to be longer to act) and I get some symptom relief.

unfortunately it’s very hard to find a balance. Hopefully by correcting the core issue these things take care of themselves.

 

[godlovesatrier]

That makes sense. Thanks Josh

 

[perrier]

If I were a guy, I'd find this definitely troublesome ....

I am wondering about the effect on women also. Hormones are often seriously unbalanced in females in this disease.
Secondly, I may be suffering concentration issues, but it isn't clear to me which are all the substances in the protocol that are androgen inhibitors. Should we perhaps make a list? Thanks to everyone exploring this protocol.

I would like to hear from more severe women doing it.

 

[jump44]

I am wondering about the effect on women also. Hormones are often seriously unbalanced in females in this disease.
Secondly, I may be suffering concentration issues, but it isn't clear to me which are all the substances in the protocol that are androgen inhibitors. Should we perhaps make a list? Thanks to everyone exploring this protocol.

I would like to hear from more severe women doing it.

As far as I can tell it’s just the reishi and ecgc which are the androgen antagonist. If we were taking these at normal dosages I wouldn’t even be mentioning this. But since the treatment calls for multiple dosing per day I thought it’s worth discussing.

 

[godlovesatrier]

That might make more sense. The sex drive does dip with reishi extract. But only life extension and with egcg alone the sex drive goes up if anything not down.

 

[perrier]

As far as I can tell it’s just the reishi and ecgc which are the androgen antagonist. If we were taking these at normal dosages I wouldn’t even be mentioning this. But since the treatment calls for multiple dosing per day I thought it’s worth discussing.

The issue is more complex perhaps. This as we all know is an illness concocted in hell by a mad man. The hormonal levels are often not stable. So, at one point in the illness a woman could have low testosterone and then high testosterone, and then develop SHBG at abnormal levels. So, of course, in addition to focusing on the immune system, the delicate hormonal system can be easily disrupted, and this is my concern also. Thanks everyone.