Help Please! Crazy Histamine Intolerance Since Starting Methylation Protocol

[Crux]

Hi Crux,

Have you read THE LARGE GORILLA ... ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN. It is Many time more effective anti-inflammatory that MeCbl and especially HyCbl. It also has NOTHING to do with methylation except when it is stalled for lack of ATP requiring the other half of the Deadlock Quartet to get operational. So the 3 main known functions of AdoCbl is major anti-inflammatory, processing of fatty acids for use as myelin and occupying mitochondria as an important part of the Krebs' cycle turning out ATP upon which most all biochemical reactions in the body are dependent. Autoimmune problems appear to be get started while in methyltrap.

Hi Freddd;
Yes, I read the paper, thanks for bringing it to us...excellent.
I've tried adenosylcobalamin off and on for several years now. I first tried it unknowingly, when source naturals added it to its sublingual 'coenzyme' B complex. At that time, I still had alot of nerve inflammation. I found it to be irritating to my nerves, especially in the mouth. ( Before that, I gave some to my MIL, she returned it to me, describing it as, 'it makes my gums hurt'.)

I've tried the source naturals brand, country life brand, and the anabol naturals brand. I've still had inflammation from them, but the anabol naturals brand was the least problematic. I may retry in the future.

It doesn't make sense, when the studies show otherwise, but I can't deny my repeated negative results. They were too painful.

OF course, things will change, but for now, the MeCbl and HyCbl is my best anti-inflammatory combo.

I suspect that the B12 deficiency and folate trap may have been one of the causes of my auto-immune conditions.

 

[chilove]

Very interesting. I'm taking "D-Hist" formula by Ortho Molecular Products and it has quercetin in it. I also take holy basil to help with histamine and inflammation. I will look into butterbur as well as increasing my methylation protocol.

Thanks so much!

Audrey

 

[chilove]

After having and emergency appendectomy a week and a half ago, I stopped taking the LDN and it seems like my histamine symptoms have gone down a bit but its hard to tel sometimes... it may be too soon to tell. I think I may be sleeping better as well.

Oh, I found out the hard way that probiotics make my histamine symptoms much worse. I made myself SOOOOO sick with them. Something about fermentation I guess....

 

[chilove]

Hi Audrey,

What is a full list of all the symptoms in response. So are they generally contained in Set 1, Set 2 and/or Set 3 or not at all?

Let's pin it down by symptoms what is occurring.


Set 1

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Set 2
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.

Set 3

IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

Hi Fred,

I've had most of those symptoms at some point since starting the methylation merry go round. LOL. I'd say currently I most closely match the symptoms in Set 2 although I no longer have skin cracking or chelitis since switching to a new methylation cream that Dr Kendall Stewart makes. It doesnt even list the Mb12 or methylfolate dosages on it but I seem to do better on it because it's so simple and I don't get potassium issues on it like I did when trying to follow your protoctol (it was just too hard too follow and I couldn't stay on top of the potassium)

The histamine symptoms are two types; immediate upon eating something that sets it off and then delayed.The immediate symptoms are belly pain and tightening that radiates into the chest, heart racing and anxiety. The delayed reactions are diarhea, flushing on and off night and day, severe night sweats, cloudy thinking, depression and irritibility.

Thanks!

Audrey

 

[chilove]

I can't really tell you why we get crazy histamines, but I can tell you that Molybdenum drops help me a lot. They help with sulfite/sulfate conversion......I'm not sure how that relates to histamine. I just know that it decreases my histamine intolerance periods.

Thanks! I'll check them out

 

[chilove]

chilove: Hi there, I'm just staring to figure some of this out myself. What I do know is that after I did the CBS protocol that Yasko prescribes for a few weeks that I was able to take myself off of antihistamines entirely! YAY! I was having all kinds of CRAZY histamine like responses.
I'm going to take a few quotes from Yasko's book (you can get free download off her site). It's complicated:

"Lack of BH4 may result in mast cell degranulation and lead to higher histamine levels, which can produce symptoms such as red ears and other hypersensitivity reactions." BH4 production is directly impacted by CBS problems. Elevated ammonia uses up BH4 before it can be used for any other essential processes.

"Quercetin can be used to limit mast cell degranulation for those individuals who are COMT—/–or COMT +/–. In addition, Petadulex (butterbur) may be helpful in balancing allergic/histamine reactions." I believe I might be COMT ++, so while I have used Quercetin in past with mixed results, but once I freed up BH4, I had to rapidly take myself off of all dopamine precursors (which Quercetin is) because my own dopamine supplies kicked in.

"Briefly, if methylation is low and T cell production is low, then histamine levels tend to be high. Histamine is linked to inflammation, a contributing factors to leaky gut as well as allergies. With the underactivity of T cells, B cell activity can take over, which can lead to autoimmune issues like allergies and food sensitivities. That’s why so many children with autism benefit from a gluten-free, casein-free diet."

"Histamines, as I mentioned earlier, cause allergic reactions when they are released in response to antigens. Histamine levels in your body are dependent on the methylation cycle because histamines are broken down, or deactivated, by receiving a methyl group. Impaired methylation therefore leads to abnormally high levels of histamine and increased allergic sensitivity, something we often see in children with autism."
*********************************************************************************************************************************
Can anyone please help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? I found out I have the double MTHFR mutation after suffering an endocrine and adrenal system crash a year and a half ago. I am on supplemental hormones including cortisol and started taking mb12 and methyl folate. Since then I have developed an intolerance to histamine containing foods and suffer severe flushing and flashes, itching, irritability and other symptoms. My hunch is that supplementation with the methyl groups got certain parts of your system working, but it is getting jammed up due to possible CBS issues and interference with BH4.

I suspect CBS issues due to severe protein metabolism issues and problems with sulfur foods. I can't even take amino acid supplements. What happens? Fatigue?

I am taking LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone- an immunemodulater) and it helped reduce my environmental allergies but I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the histamine intolerance developing. I'm not an expert, but when I looked up the chemical composition of Naltrexone: 17-(cyclopropylmethyl)-4,5α-epoxy- 3,14-dihydroxymorphinan-6-one It looks to me that there is a methyl group involved, which would explain why symptoms would be increasing.

I have a history of fibromyalgia, severe food allergies and protein intolerance, OCD and anxiety Read through http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm All kinds of "crazy" things can arise with CBS mutation, and interrupted BH4 production, as BH4 production is so closely tied to neurotransmitter synthesis. Do you know your CBS status?
All of those resolved on a very low protein raw vegan diet but after a decade of feeling great on it I suffered the crash a year and a half ago.Yes, your story is very similar to mine. I was eating quite normally, and then following a period of acute stress (divorce, change in city, training for marathons), I noticed that I didn't tolerate meat very well. I became a vegetarian because I rationalized as per the the "spiritual" vein I was on at the time that my body didn't want meat anymore, ha, ha... and so I didn't eat meat, then I was raw vegan, then I was a fruitarian! Rationalizing each step, because I felt better as I became more restricted. What I ended up with a severe deficiency in amino acids and resulting deepening of depression. What happens when you have amino acids? Do you feel fatigued, or experience excito-toxicity? It could be that the pathway to metabolizing them is very week. I know that I have a problem with glutamate to GABA conversion, so I **cannot** have an amino acid supplements with glutamate like substances in them or aspartic substances either.

In health,
Star

Hi Star,

Thanks so much! When I take amino acids I get the same symptoms as when I eat animal protein or concentrated sources of plant protein. I get fatigue, fibromyalgia pain comes back with a vengeance, headaches, cloudy thinking, depression, irritibility, and I get lots of mucus production in my throat and if I persist with it I'll get a throat infection or cold/flu types symptoms. It's pretty bad. My body also reacts this way to all cooked food now, even whole food vegan options that would seem to be pretty benign. The only thing I can tolerate comfortably is raw fruits and veggies and also I got very deficient and was very underweight after 12 years of being all raw. I dealt with that by taking calcium bentonite clay, herbs, and maca. Since adding those in and starting the methylation protocol I've been able to put some weight and muscle back on even though I'm still only eating raw fruits and veggies.

I do not know my CBS status.

 

[Star-Anise]

chilove:
Hi there
When I take amino acids I get the same symptoms as when I eat animal protein or concentrated sources of plant protein. I get fatigue, fibromyalgia pain comes back with a vengeance, headaches, cloudy thinking, depression, irritibility, and I get lots of mucus production in my throat and if I persist with it I'll get a throat infection or cold/flu types symptoms.
Yes, I used to have a bunch of these symptoms too in response to protein. Read up on what Yasko talks about in regards to ammonia and protein digestion. I still do get some fatigue after eating meat. But generally I have gained strength in leaps and bounds. You need to figure out someway to tolerate protein. It is vital for rebuilding body composition. A had another thread re: my recent success with Yasko's CBS protocol. Perhaps you can get some information from here. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-success.23257/page-2#post-356507
I had to start really, really slow with the protein. Little bits make a big difference. It is likely that some of the fatigue that you are getting could be from compromised ability to break down the proteins. I had to take HCL for awhile, as well as digestive enzymes. My favorite one was:
http://www.metagenics.com/mp/products/azeo-pangen
But it also relies on a porcine pancreatic enzyme. They have extra strength & regular strength. It's a tablet, so it's really easy to break in half. At different stages in my recovery, I found I needed different dosages.
It's pretty bad. My body also reacts this way to all cooked food now, even whole food vegan options that would seem to be pretty benign. The only thing I can tolerate comfortably is raw fruits and veggiesYes this exact thing happened to me. I wish I knew at the time that it was due to compromised digestive function arising likely out of brewing adrenal fatigue (which I now believe was a result of my chronic methylation issues).

and also I got very deficient and was very underweight after 12 years of being all raw. I dealt with that by taking calcium bentonite clay, herbs, and maca (Yes Maca has been a friend to me in the recent past as well). It does help balance out endocrine dysfunction).

Since adding those in and starting the methylation protocol I've been able to put some weight and muscle back on even though I'm still only eating raw fruits and veggies.Perhaps step one for you would be to try to introduce some steamed veggies. If you can't tolerate meat, then I would at least try to introduce some meat broths.See link below:
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful
In my experience broths are usually used in Chinese Medicine as well for those that have a weak constitution, which you have for sure.
Another product that you may consider trying is something like this:
http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterCodLiverBlend/index.cfm
They also have dairy free options if that is a sensitivity for you.

I do not know my CBS status. This might be really useful to find out. I just ordered my 23andme test today. In the meantime, I would be highly suspicious of any role that this snp may be playing, and would experiment with ammonia clearing protocol as per Yasko, and my post above.

Generally the best advice that I can give you is to try to avoid the whole hype that is surrounding the raw vegan community. They tout their diet as a "cure all," and in my case, it only led to further deterioration of my health. Yes, due to my compromised digestion as I ate simpler and simpler foods it appeared that I was getting better. But if I looked at the whole picture, I like you, was only suffering from more and more fatigue, and increased sensitivities. I actually started to get bloated as well from the raw veggies & fruit, and was considering breatharianism, lol! Ha, ha...

Yes, some of these raw diets can be a little more gentle on your digestion system (possibly?) but for example I am sure that my additional fruit intake only added to my candida issues, and there are all kinds of stories about people developing increased dental problems from the acidity of fruit.

Also in my experience, and you will find more info on Weston Price website (cited above) re: vegetarian versus non-vegetarian sources of meat, I have found things like nuts, lentils, and soy, as well as wheat gluten, and casein products which are mostly your vegetarian sources of protein to be far harder to digest and cause all kinds of other problems for me than meat. But start slow, as I said above. Experiment with well-prepared broths with clean ingredients, and perhaps a nice Cod liver oil as I suggested.

All the best, Star

 

[chilove]

chilove:
Hi there
When I take amino acids I get the same symptoms as when I eat animal protein or concentrated sources of plant protein. I get fatigue, fibromyalgia pain comes back with a vengeance, headaches, cloudy thinking, depression, irritibility, and I get lots of mucus production in my throat and if I persist with it I'll get a throat infection or cold/flu types symptoms.
Yes, I used to have a bunch of these symptoms too in response to protein. Read up on what Yasko talks about in regards to ammonia and protein digestion. I still do get some fatigue after eating meat. But generally I have gained strength in leaps and bounds. You need to figure out someway to tolerate protein. It is vital for rebuilding body composition. A had another thread re: my recent success with Yasko's CBS protocol. Perhaps you can get some information from here. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-success.23257/page-2#post-356507
I had to start really, really slow with the protein. Little bits make a big difference. It is likely that some of the fatigue that you are getting could be from compromised ability to break down the proteins. I had to take HCL for awhile, as well as digestive enzymes. My favorite one was:
http://www.metagenics.com/mp/products/azeo-pangen
But it also relies on a porcine pancreatic enzyme. They have extra strength & regular strength. It's a tablet, so it's really easy to break in half. At different stages in my recovery, I found I needed different dosages.
It's pretty bad. My body also reacts this way to all cooked food now, even whole food vegan options that would seem to be pretty benign. The only thing I can tolerate comfortably is raw fruits and veggiesYes this exact thing happened to me. I wish I knew at the time that it was due to compromised digestive function arising likely out of brewing adrenal fatigue (which I now believe was a result of my chronic methylation issues).

and also I got very deficient and was very underweight after 12 years of being all raw. I dealt with that by taking calcium bentonite clay, herbs, and maca (Yes Maca has been a friend to me in the recent past as well). It does help balance out endocrine dysfunction).

Since adding those in and starting the methylation protocol I've been able to put some weight and muscle back on even though I'm still only eating raw fruits and veggies.Perhaps step one for you would be to try to introduce some steamed veggies. If you can't tolerate meat, then I would at least try to introduce some meat broths.See link below:
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful
In my experience broths are usually used in Chinese Medicine as well for those that have a weak constitution, which you have for sure.
Another product that you may consider trying is something like this:
http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/ButterCodLiverBlend/index.cfm
They also have dairy free options if that is a sensitivity for you.

I do not know my CBS status. This might be really useful to find out. I just ordered my 23andme test today. In the meantime, I would be highly suspicious of any role that this snp may be playing, and would experiment with ammonia clearing protocol as per Yasko, and my post above.

Generally the best advice that I can give you is to try to avoid the whole hype that is surrounding the raw vegan community. They tout their diet as a "cure all," and in my case, it only led to further deterioration of my health. Yes, due to my compromised digestion as I ate simpler and simpler foods it appeared that I was getting better. But if I looked at the whole picture, I like you, was only suffering from more and more fatigue, and increased sensitivities. I actually started to get bloated as well from the raw veggies & fruit, and was considering breatharianism, lol! Ha, ha...

Yes, some of these raw diets can be a little more gentle on your digestion system (possibly?) but for example I am sure that my additional fruit intake only added to my candida issues, and there are all kinds of stories about people developing increased dental problems from the acidity of fruit.

Also in my experience, and you will find more info on Weston Price website (cited above) re: vegetarian versus non-vegetarian sources of meat, I have found things like nuts, lentils, and soy, as well as wheat gluten, and casein products which are mostly your vegetarian sources of protein to be far harder to digest and cause all kinds of other problems for me than meat. But start slow, as I said above. Experiment with well-prepared broths with clean ingredients, and perhaps a nice Cod liver oil as I suggested.

All the best, Star

Hi Star,

I would love to speak with you more about how exactly you were able to expand your food options. I've tried bone broths and they made me so sick and crazy, I gave them up after a few days.

I can't even eat steamed veggies without a reaction. Last week I tried 5 steamed brussel sprouts, thats it, just 5 and the next morning woke up with pain and increased mucus. I have to work full time at a demanding job so I really cant just suffer through it. I'd love to correspond more via email if thats ok with you.

Thanks so much!

Audrey

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fred,

I've had most of those symptoms at some point since starting the methylation merry go round. LOL. I'd say currently I most closely match the symptoms in Set 2 although I no longer have skin cracking or chelitis since switching to a new methylation cream that Dr Kendall Stewart makes. It doesnt even list the Mb12 or methylfolate dosages on it but I seem to do better on it because it's so simple and I don't get potassium issues on it like I did when trying to follow your protoctol (it was just too hard too follow and I couldn't stay on top of the potassium)

The histamine symptoms are two types; immediate upon eating something that sets it off and then delayed.The immediate symptoms are belly pain and tightening that radiates into the chest, heart racing and anxiety. The delayed reactions are diarhea, flushing on and off night and day, severe night sweats, cloudy thinking, depression and irritibility.

Thanks!

Audrey

Hi Audrey,

Set 2 contains that set of symptoms having to do with folate insufficiency typically. Folate insufficiency appears to increase histamine and it's reactions.

 

[chilove]

Hi Audrey,

Set 2 contains that set of symptoms having to do with folate insufficiency typically. Folate insufficiency appears to increase histamine and it's reactions.

Thanks Fredd, I'll try upping the methyl folate.

 

[chilove]

For anyone suffering from itching/burning/flushing, I'll put in a plug for Magic Masto Cream. You can google the recipe. I make mine by mixing a bottle of nasalcrom into a jar of cetaphil lotion. It seems to work much better than any other creams I've tried (short of steroids, of course) and is pretty innocuous.

Interesting.. are you getting anything beneficial from the cetaphil lotion or could I substitute something like coconut oil do you think?

Thanks!

 

[camas]

Interesting.. are you getting anything beneficial from the cetaphil lotion or could I substitute something like coconut oil do you think?

The cetaphil really just serves as a base to mix the nasalcrom into. I don't know of any reason you couldn't mix the nasalcrom into coconut oil if that's your regular moisturizer. I find that it works pretty good to cool down my burning/itchy skin when I don't feel like taking more zyrtec.

 

[paul_k]

For what it's worth when I stopped taking b6 or p5p for a few days my itching lessened greatly. Then when I added it in again it came back.
Sounds counter intuitive seeing as though b6 is a DAO co factor so my current theory (yet unproven) is that my taking b6 opens a CBS floodgate and creates sulfites. Who knows.

 

[chilove]

Thanks Paul, I've actually completely given up on methylation supplements and am focusing on killing pathogens instead. I've recovered by at least 90% by taking an oxidative antimicrobial and detoxing. I'm also continuining on a raw vegan diet and doing daily castor oil liver packs and I"m so much better now. I have my life back again!! Thanks for responding though.

 

[paul_k]

I hear you on multiple fronts!
I'm also focussing mostly on detox, supporting my adrenals with adaptogenic herbs, herbal anti microbials and I'm tinkering around the edges of mercury detox also.
You could take folate and b12 all day long but if the foundations aren't solid you'll only make yourself worse in the long term.
Dunno if you've tried coffee enemas or far infra red saunas but I'd be lost without both

 

[paul_k]

Brilliant that you're feeling so much better by the way !!

 

[chilove]

Thanks Paul, I have done some FIR sauna... I love it. I bought a cheap portable one and I don't use it as much as I should. It feels wonderful in the winter time

 

[crzyakta]

Sounds counter intuitive seeing as though b6 is a DAO co factor so my current theory (yet unproven) is

Hi Paul, what is your theory regarding this? Also what are your thoughts on CBS mutations, do you really believe they can affect sulfite sensitivities?

 

[paul_k]

@crzyakta hi. What I do know is that b6 speeds up CBS and that the end product of the flow of homocysteine through CBS is either glutathione or sulfate. It seems that excessive b6 supplementation can create excess sulfites in some people if they are deficient in b1 or molybdenum which are the 2 cofactors needed by the sulfite oxidase enzyme which breaks down sulfites. Every time I take b6 lately I get really itchy and wondered was it sulfites because I am low in molybdenum. I am currently guinea pigging this theory on myself

 

[Valentijn]

Every time I take b6 lately I get really itchy and wondered was it sulfites because I am low in molybdenum.

B6 itself can be toxic if the dose is too high, causing nerve symptoms. It's important to not take any more than the recommended dose.