Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Star-Anise, May 17, 2013.
This is what I would like know myself.
Star, thank you and congratulations. How awesome to read a story like yours. I was coming back to this site to ask about Yasko's charcoal flush and searched for it and found your post. I have a CBS C699T +/- and will attempt to address the very same things you have had such success with.
I have used charcoal plenty in the past and it does a good job at pulling toxins out of the bowel from what I can tell as well as some beneficial things (B3 is produced in the gut as well as T4). When I saw her recommendation of one or 2 capsules followed by a bottle of magnesium citrate I was curious. People who do coffee enemas might take 10 capsules before the enema to catch the bile dump. The Bile contains the toxins the liver wants to get rid of. Your body wants to recycle bile so the charcoal grabs it and makes sure it gets removed. A good thing to do maybe once or twice a week.
So 1 or 2 caps seemed like barely enough for a flush. I was wondering why the mag-citrate then you mentioned constipation and that's got to be why. I don't think that's enough charcoal to cause constipation is most people.
I would think a small but steady flow of charcoal throughout the day 2 hours away from food (maybe in between meals) maybe like 1/2 capsule per would keep grabbing the gut toxins as they are produced while not robbing too much of the beneficial things.
Thank you for the link to Yasko's book, I found it and downloaded it.
I wanted to ask if you were using Yucca at all? I didn't see that you mentioned it?
On a side note:
Also if anyone can eloborate on this. Yasko mentions things like: "SHMT+ and ACAT + " and "
COMT V158M + or VDR Taq – SNPs"...
She doesn't talk about +/- on these pages anyway: http://www.dramyyasko.com/resources/autism-pathways-to-recovery/chapter-6/
Is she lumping +/+ and +/- together as +?
I found the following sentence in this reference http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3042247/
"The common functional variant C677T SNP of MTHFR best fit a recessive model, with the TT genotype significantly associated with 56.9 nmol/L lower MMA compared to CT and CC individuals (p-value = 0.005). Likewise, the G allele of MTRR functional variant A66G carried a 55.7 nmol/L increase in MMA compared to AA individuals under a dominant model (p-value = 0.009). Across the MTR gene, heterozygotes at multiple SNPs high LD with each other had a 38–42 nmol/L decrease in serum MMA, compared to either type of homozygote."
I would surmise that if a heterozygous variant and the wild variant had outcomes more similar to each other than the homozygous variant and heterozygous variant had to each other, then it's a recessive model gene. If the homozygous and the heterozygous variants had outcomes more similar to each other than to the wild variant, then it's a dominant model gene. But that's my speculation.
I haven't seen the recommendation for a whole bottle, and found that I needed around 300mg of magnesium citrate.
From Yasko's book:
Charcoal and Magnesium Flushes
Dosage: 1 to 2 capsules of charcoal, followed by enough magnesium citrate to
produce a bowel movement within 8–12 hours. Once per week or more depending
on testing and behaviors.
All I know is that the 1/2 capsule (bout 1/4 teaspoon max) of bulk activated charcoal really did constipate me. I don't know perhaps the loose powder form I used is somewhat more powerful than tablets.
yes I had excellent success with this approach. I think with depleted systems, and weak adrenals especially we all have to be careful about overdoing the detoxing, and cleansing. I always start way lower on supplement recommendations and then increase to tolerance.
No. The steroid saponins in Yucca were too hard for my adrenals.
What did you want to know? My eyes may be failing me, but I don't see you have SHMT, or ACAT mutations in your signature list. I do however see you have COMT listed. This is strongly related to CBS mutations and affects the dopamine pathway (= energy/motivation), and as well I see you have a MAO mutation listed, which affects serotonin. As well the MTRR mutations could indicate difficulties with B12, and your BMHT mutations could as well really interfere with methylation. See Yasko below:
Why is the MTR/MTRR pathway so important? As you recall, there are four
pathways through this key portion of the methylation cycle.
Our methylation intermediates (all the biochemicals we need on this pathway)
can go one of four ways:
• Down via the CBS gateway to transsulfuration end products *We know you have difficulties here.
• Through the SHMT to create thymidylate
• Via the BHMT shortcut, or *We know you have difficulties here.
• Through the MTR/MTRR portion of the cycle.*Thus, it may be prudent to support here.
I find that if we limit “traffic” through CBS, SHMT, and BHMT so that we
shunt the traffic through MTR/MTRR, we often see increased excretion of
metals, especially mercury. *Very good thing.
Doing this means that we supply all the necessary
ingredients for the MTR/MTRR reaction, while balancing the other pathways
at a maintenance level. Accordingly, my supplement recommendations for CBS,
SHMT, and BHMT will help you limit traffic down those pathways. In this section,
we focus on enhancing MTR/MTRR, which entails increasing B12 levels.
However, before supplementing with B12, please first take into account your
COMT V158M and VDR/Taq status, which will help to determine whether
to focus more heavily on hydroxyl B12 or methyl B12 for support. In my clinical
experience, I’ve regularly observed that those with COMT V158M + and
VDR Taq – mutations don’t tolerate methyl donors well, including methyl B12.
Also adults, regardless of their COMT V158M/VDR Taq status, have more
limited tolerance than children for the detox triggered by methyl B12. Despite
that, those who are MTR + and MTRR + can and should look at higher-dose
B12 support, balancing the ratio of methyl to hydroxyl B12 based on COMT
V158M/VDR Taq status. As you gradually proceed to add in B12, you can also
take into account your own or your child’s personal tolerance for it. In addition
to either methyl or hydroxyl B12, I often suggest the use of low doses of cyano
(to support the eyes) and adenosyl B12 with vitamin E succinate, as you will see
in the supplement recommendations.
One way to begin B12 support is with one chewable methyl B12 (5mg) or hydroxyl
(1 or 2mg) daily, gradually increasing to two, three, or more per day if you
can tolerate it. If mood swings occur, then decrease the dose of B12 back down to
a more comfortable level. While a new nasal B12 is available, I don’t recommend
using that exclusively. I prefer some B12 to be absorbed through the gut with the
help of Intrinsic Factor, which is contained in some of the recommended supplements.
In addition, the use of oral B12 sprays (available as hydroxyl or methyl,)
topical B12 cream, B12 gum and the B12 patch are other means by which to
146 Autism: Pathways to Recovery
support B12 in the body. I like to see multiple routes and forms of B12 used until
I feel that the system has been saturated with B12 (see discussion of cobalt levels
below). Literature suggests that oral B12 is as effective as injected B12. However,
if preferred, you can consider B12 injections, making sure to use either plain
methyl B12 (without any added folinic or NAC) or plain hydroxyl B12 injections.
You can use the chewable B12 and the oral B12 spray on the injection “off days.”
If you plan to use injections, start with once per week, and gradually increase
to three times per week. Allow your tolerance levels to determine how you can
gradually increase the B12. As always work in conjunction with your health care
Yes. And this is what I do too. As we cannot be entirely sure of the difference in expression between +/+ and +/-, I have been doing the same too.
Best of luck! Star
Good to know thanks
Star thank you, yeah, I have a real lack of motivation and energy lately. I thought the COMT and MAO mutations were downregulations and should mean MORE of the neurotransmitters? Maybe too much Dopamine?
Interesting Article on COMT (Worrier vs. Warrior) click here
So sounds like I need to limit sulfur and try to downregulate CBS, BHMT should already be downregulated according to my genetics. I'll need to look what to do for SHMT.
The MTRR and MTR mean I need to be taking B12
MTHFR has me taking methylfolate
About CBS, is supposed to make one methyl donor sensitive but the VDR mutations are supposed to counteract that to some extent.
"The VDR Taq also factors into methyl tolerance so if your vdr taq +|+ you will tolerate more methyls than a vdr taq -|- would."
I also read the same from Dr. Ben I believe.
Also, Regarding CBS+, is supposed to be an upregulation, does it not still need the cofactors to open the door to the transulfuration pathway? B6 and possible serine? Would CBS+ use up all one's B6 and leave one deficient?
Dr. Ben has a good article here about controlling the rate of Methylation
Looks like you are well on your way to figuring out the complex interactions of your snps. I'll be better able to help others once I get my own 23andme results back & we can compare snps
The acidity level of the stomach contents determines how much bile is released. Cortisol determines stomach acidity. Therefor bile production often fails in people with adrenal fatigue.
You can aid the stomach with acidifiers such as vinegar or HCl or lemon juice.
Very interesting that bile is used to detox. And that charcoal helps to prevent re-uptake. Magnesium relaxes the (intestine) muscles, I'd think. Might the citrate act like an acidifier?
Thanks for sharing this, Star-Anise. Very helpful to me as I'm sure from my food reactions that I have major sulphur issues and am just mulling over what to do about it. (I'm CBS +/-) A bottle of charcoal is sitting in the cupboard, but I haven't opened it yet...
Star, I hope but it doesn't seem to be that easy for me. I've had CFS for 10 years and must take things very slow. I get more easily wiped out taking HCbl for example than MCbl. I beleive it's due to the conversion of some Hcbl to Acbl because when I too Acbl with my MCbl it did the same thing. I'll need to read some of Freddd's posts to try to figure out why. At this moment I am severly run down and feeling very adrenally fatigued and taking vitamin C for that.
sregan: if you need someone to bounce things off of feel free to personal message me. I certainly don't have all the answers, as may be evident, ha, ha! This methylation and interventions specific to snps are all new to me to be quite honest. I have been sick since 2005, so 7 years, and now with the most recent additions of methylation supports, I am back to my "pre-sick," sick, if that makes sense! I think I've always had some baseline issues that, while I was younger, I could just push through at the expense of my adrenals.
What would be most helpful is some clarification of the snps that people are putting in their signatures. From what I can tell the red ones are ones that were identified as being the most problematic in your testing, and then the ones in black are other mutations that you have? I haven't gotten my results back, but do they indicate if they are homogenous or heterogeneous or not? The main one I get confused with is how people are listing their VDR statuses... any clarification you could provide me would be awesome. It's funny, all I ever wanted to be was a poet, and now I am becoming an expert geneticist, naturopath, and physician in order to get myself healthy. Bahabahabaha! Ah well, if it can benefit some people then I guess it may be worth it in the end.
I put my +/+ snps in red and the +/- in black
I just read through this: http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm which does a pretty good job of explaining the mutations and their effects. http://mthfr.net is very good also as is yasko: http://www.dramyyasko.com.
Is it WHY are people listing their VDR values? VDR mutation will eat up methyl groups so if you are COMT+ making you possibly prone to overmethylation but you are also VDR+ that can supposedly counteract the COMT mutation.
I am curious to see your 23andme results also.
sregan: Ah, that makes sense!!!! HA HA I totally see it now!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what peeps are doing, ha ha nothing like the obvious amidst the un-obvious gotta luv it.
dbkita knows more about this than I do, and I certainly don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it's my understanding that it's the CBS A360A polymorphism that is the one where folks might have issues with sulfur, not the C699T.
Perhaps the reason or reason's people felt better were due to the charcoal adsorbing other toxins (?) and or the molybdenum helping to convert sulfite into sulfate?
Here's an explanation from Susan Owens, who has been researching sulfur for decades...
Looking at CBS / Transsulfuration pathway, I see that Cysteine and KG (p.s. - what is KG?) break down into
Taurine Sulfite and Glutathione. When upregulated, there is greater production.
My question is, if there is a greater production of Taurine and Sulfite, why is there also not a greater production of
Glutathione? Why is glutathione depleted by CBS up-regulation?
Do you have a link to this information? Doesn't make sense...
I'm just piecing this stuff together too so take with grain of salt... from Yasko/my understanding:
We know that the
I'm assuming if the "gate" was not open (upregulation) then more of homocysteine would be directed to glutathinone/glutathione production.
KG - I think is referencing Alpha Ketoglutarate which can be problematic because this is converted into glutamate, which leads to a glutamate-GABA imbalance
Hopefully that helps some. I think the key is to downregulate the CBS enzyme, so that huge amounts of cysteine aren't produced.
dannybex the source I'm using above is Yasko's book. There is also a nice little diagram on http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm
I guess I should've been more specific -- I was asking for a link or clinical research that backs up what Yasko is saying...not a link to what she says. Looking for the specific research citations to back up her claims of 'upregulation'.
I'm not a scientist or chemist, but below is a link to one who strongly disagrees with Yasko's conclusions, Andrew Cutler PhD, an expert in heavy metal (especially mercury) detoxification.
He contends that mercury and other heavy metals need to be chelated -- that 'fixing' methylation won't fix the heavy metal problem, if you have that. He gets a little blunt at times, but it's my understanding that he does so because he's so sick of having to say the same thing over and over...
dbkita actually did post about the CBS A360A vs. C699T issue. This is what he told someone who was CBS A360A:
But you have CBS A360A rather than C699T and what he told you sounds like a contradiction to what I'm quoting above (unless I'm reading this incorrectly)
Thanks Lotus -- my bad. I did in fact mean what dbitka says in the quote -- that it's the C699T that MAY create some issues, and not the A360A, but even that is questioned by experts who have been in the field longer than Yasko.
Sorry for the brain fog / confusion. I'll edit the post above.
Shoot, for some reason I can't edit that post...maybe because it's too old??? Oh well...still waiting for those studies.
Hi everyone. Results back!
CBS C699T +/-
CBS A360A +/-
SUOX - nothing
And apparently AHCY mutations can help mitigate some CBS problems - maybe this speaks to how come the protocol worked so well???
AHCY -02 +/-
WOW, I got some figuring to do, as well as CBS I have some MTHFR stuff ACAT, MAO, MTRR stuff goin on!
You can also try a Google Site Search
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