Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?
- Thread starter Hanna
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http://omegavia.com/how-to-choose-the-right-vitamin-k2-supplement/
Synthetic vs Natural. You will hear that MK-4 is synthetic and that MK-7 is not. Neither MK-4 nor MK-7, in my opinion, is natural.
They are both ‘made from natural sources‘ like leaves, petals, and legumes. But both nutrients undergo lots of [URL='http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC281544/']fermentation, purification, extraction, and precipitation that it’s really not right to call either of these ingredients ‘Natural.’ If you want natural, eat Natto or fatty goose liver.
Most MK-7 found in supplements are a blend of Cis and Trans.
Example: if a label says 100 mcg (microgram) of MK-7, you’d expect most of it to be absorbed or bioavailable. Not so. In most cases, it is impossible to tell how much of the 100 mcg is in the biologically active and beneficial trans form. Most of it is probably in the trans form. But K2 supplements analyzed at the University of Oslo suggests that some products contain only about 15% of MK-7 in the trans form.
So this hypothetical product may be providing you just 15 mcg of trans MK-7 and 85 mcg cis MK-7, instead of the 100 mcg of usable K2 as claimed by the label.
This is a bit of a bummer. Because most of the manufacturers of K2 products don’t even bother to check how much cis and trans is present in their product. It has simply not dawned on the industry’s collective conscience. (But it may…if you ask them to test and share the results.)
MK-7 molecular structure of various sources per unpublished data from University of Oslo/KappaBio:
MK-7 ORIGIN % MK-7 as TRANS
Norway 98%
Japan 95%
Europe 89%
India 71%
China 15-30%
[/URL]
Life Extension Super K2 MK-7 Isomer Analysis
Lab Eurofins Synthetica
Total MK-7 (mcg) 271.9 211
Cis-MK-7 218.5 156
Trans-MK-7 53.5 54.8
% of MK-7 as Trans 19.6% 26%
Synthetic vs Natural. You will hear that MK-4 is synthetic and that MK-7 is not. Neither MK-4 nor MK-7, in my opinion, is natural.
They are both ‘made from natural sources‘ like leaves, petals, and legumes. But both nutrients undergo lots of [URL='http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC281544/']fermentation, purification, extraction, and precipitation that it’s really not right to call either of these ingredients ‘Natural.’ If you want natural, eat Natto or fatty goose liver.
Most MK-7 found in supplements are a blend of Cis and Trans.
Example: if a label says 100 mcg (microgram) of MK-7, you’d expect most of it to be absorbed or bioavailable. Not so. In most cases, it is impossible to tell how much of the 100 mcg is in the biologically active and beneficial trans form. Most of it is probably in the trans form. But K2 supplements analyzed at the University of Oslo suggests that some products contain only about 15% of MK-7 in the trans form.
So this hypothetical product may be providing you just 15 mcg of trans MK-7 and 85 mcg cis MK-7, instead of the 100 mcg of usable K2 as claimed by the label.
This is a bit of a bummer. Because most of the manufacturers of K2 products don’t even bother to check how much cis and trans is present in their product. It has simply not dawned on the industry’s collective conscience. (But it may…if you ask them to test and share the results.)
MK-7 molecular structure of various sources per unpublished data from University of Oslo/KappaBio:
MK-7 ORIGIN % MK-7 as TRANS
Norway 98%
Japan 95%
Europe 89%
India 71%
China 15-30%
[/URL]
Life Extension Super K2 MK-7 Isomer Analysis
Lab Eurofins Synthetica
Total MK-7 (mcg) 271.9 211
Cis-MK-7 218.5 156
Trans-MK-7 53.5 54.8
% of MK-7 as Trans 19.6% 26%
Being synthetic vitamins, I can see how some people can have reactions. I wonder if it has anything to do with the TRANS and CIS forms.
Also the dosages of the synthetics seems abnormally high but maybe that is the only way they can work.
The only thing that makes me want to keep taking the K2 is that the research on positive effects were done using i believe synthetic MK4 and no long term reports of harm
any links that show the molecular structure of animal form MK4 vs synthetic MK4
same with MK7
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A short plasma half-life his does NOT make MK-4 useless, redundant or any less beneficial to your health. The plasma half life does not make a molecule more or less effective in the body. MK-4 is stored in the brain, pancreas, salivary glands, and arteries. This stored MK-4 cannot be measured and has specific biological activities in these tissues (beside Gla-protein formation.) This stored tissue pool of MK-4 may be present much longer.
I'm think hard about this entire calcification issue
Also the dosages of the synthetics seems abnormally high but maybe that is the only way they can work.
The only thing that makes me want to keep taking the K2 is that the research on positive effects were done using i believe synthetic MK4 and no long term reports of harm
any links that show the molecular structure of animal form MK4 vs synthetic MK4
same with MK7
-------------
A short plasma half-life his does NOT make MK-4 useless, redundant or any less beneficial to your health. The plasma half life does not make a molecule more or less effective in the body. MK-4 is stored in the brain, pancreas, salivary glands, and arteries. This stored MK-4 cannot be measured and has specific biological activities in these tissues (beside Gla-protein formation.) This stored tissue pool of MK-4 may be present much longer.
I'm think hard about this entire calcification issue
Last edited:
mariovitali
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Yes, vitamin K2 is an important piece of this puzzle! (a Hypothesis of course)
The importance of Vitamin K has been discussed in the "Unfolded Protein Response" post.
October 8th, 2015 :
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-47#post-648805
The importance of Vitamin K has been discussed in the "Unfolded Protein Response" post.
October 8th, 2015 :
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-47#post-648805
Gondwanaland
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I have experienced painful bone growth with MK4, so I suppose a lot more calcium is needed than what is deposited around the body in wrong places.
One thing that always worries me is what will happen to the endothelium when the calcium deposited in plaques is stripped off - there will be holes. What is needed to repair the endothelium? I think the missing ingredients are lysine + vit C.
Thanks for the added info @prioris I will read them as soon as I get a chance.
And some of us are following you very closely.
One of the biggest conundrums for me is how to stop arteriosclerosis. I stalled it from killing me in my late 40s but as I age ( 62 ) I sense it getting more out of control. My toes have a little more numbness and that's a sign of arteriosclerosis or inflammation.
In researching it, I have found no simple answers. Nitric oxide doesn't prevent arteriosclerosis. I don't see vitamin K2 as the answer. K2 can help some. Vitamin C/Lysine remove plaque but so does serrapeptase-nattokinase and they help some but heart disease comes at you from many angles. They have to all be covered. We don't know the ALL. I think there are many things that break down as one ages. Throughout my life, I have staved off death many times thru my life by various means. Last year I felt deathly but i found ways to reverse it. This week I am feeling that same deathly feeling again and never know if i will survive it. i think ultimately arteriosclerosis will eventually claim me but maybe my liver will start the process.
Many things in my body seem like they are malfunctioning. I am trying to do the liver/gallbladder cleanse this past 3 weeks. I haven't passed many stones yet but trying. My liver is very congested too. i am trying to clean that out. the liver is the priority since that effects everything. Having to focus on a zillion things all at once stresses me out. I will keep posting my findings in this forum until I can't anymore. We don't know when that exact time will come. If I get by this, I will likely start taking AGED garlic.
In researching it, I have found no simple answers. Nitric oxide doesn't prevent arteriosclerosis. I don't see vitamin K2 as the answer. K2 can help some. Vitamin C/Lysine remove plaque but so does serrapeptase-nattokinase and they help some but heart disease comes at you from many angles. They have to all be covered. We don't know the ALL. I think there are many things that break down as one ages. Throughout my life, I have staved off death many times thru my life by various means. Last year I felt deathly but i found ways to reverse it. This week I am feeling that same deathly feeling again and never know if i will survive it. i think ultimately arteriosclerosis will eventually claim me but maybe my liver will start the process.
Many things in my body seem like they are malfunctioning. I am trying to do the liver/gallbladder cleanse this past 3 weeks. I haven't passed many stones yet but trying. My liver is very congested too. i am trying to clean that out. the liver is the priority since that effects everything. Having to focus on a zillion things all at once stresses me out. I will keep posting my findings in this forum until I can't anymore. We don't know when that exact time will come. If I get by this, I will likely start taking AGED garlic.
Gondwanaland
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I have the same issues
We don't want to lose you @prioris !
I'm a gonna nag you about iron's role in cardiovascular disease and peripheral neuropathy.
First, Dr. Christopher Masterjohn, our expert on vitamin K2 , has a great website where he covers nutrients, etc.
Here's his article about it :
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
Dr. Masterjohn also has mild iron overload, and has done a lengthy podcast about iron metabolism. There's also a transcript : https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/
Here are a couple of articles about iron's role in CVD and PN :
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d6bf/48a8fa66af2050056129187fe2459b948089.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4085993/
I can personally attest to iron playing a role in my PN. Whenever I have a serving of high heme iron meat , I'll develop a, (now mild), neuropathy in my feet in about 6-8 hrs. Also, when I have a large amount of anything acidic, which increases iron absorption, I'll develop PN.
I'm a gonna nag you about iron's role in cardiovascular disease and peripheral neuropathy.
First, Dr. Christopher Masterjohn, our expert on vitamin K2 , has a great website where he covers nutrients, etc.
Here's his article about it :
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
Dr. Masterjohn also has mild iron overload, and has done a lengthy podcast about iron metabolism. There's also a transcript : https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/
Here are a couple of articles about iron's role in CVD and PN :
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d6bf/48a8fa66af2050056129187fe2459b948089.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4085993/
I can personally attest to iron playing a role in my PN. Whenever I have a serving of high heme iron meat , I'll develop a, (now mild), neuropathy in my feet in about 6-8 hrs. Also, when I have a large amount of anything acidic, which increases iron absorption, I'll develop PN.
For women, iron is a prominent issue. Less so for men but i have been thinking about it. i will look at those links. you think blackstrap molasses with iron supplement may help. I do eat enough red meat so that is why i figure it isn't a problem with me,
I got burning feet. I am experimenting with some coenzyme b-complex / b1 / b5. never had symptom like that.
I got to calm down my kidney also since it is producing stones. i will try some bicarbonate of soda around 1/2 tsp a day in some water. for a long time i didn't realize i had stones in my left bladder. it was near a bursitis point so i mixed up the two. you have to be careful using bicarbonate of soda especially if using it longer term and never take it with food.
I'm thinking it may be due to experimenting too much.maybe taking too much phosphoric acid, malic acid, chanca piedra and gold coin grass etc. i was playing around with modified citrus pectin too. i've had negative consequences from experimenting before but less complex situation.
i got to take some steps back from that stuff. maybe the kidney is being overwhelmed with this stuff. i eat a meat / fish diet so that will cause more acid kidney has to deal with i think. by taking it after meal digested, it may assist kidney in neutralizing the acid the protein causes. There is also issue of too much calcium being put in kidney by supplements that could be factor.
and of course i have to deal with liver congestion and bladder stones on top of that. i got just a couple cholesterol stones out the first couple flushes but very few. i didn't get anything out that i noticed on the third flush which i did 3 days after previous one. i will just have to keep trying but do it in some gentle way. i really wanted to dispose of the liver / gallbladder problem as quickly as possible because it complicates everything else. i wish i had done flush a long time ago. i use to hear people talk about liver congestion but never knew what it was. until one experiences it, it is hard to grasp it
right now i'd like to stabilize kidney stuff and find remedy for burning feet.
i think i will live thru today ... lol
I got burning feet. I am experimenting with some coenzyme b-complex / b1 / b5. never had symptom like that.
I got to calm down my kidney also since it is producing stones. i will try some bicarbonate of soda around 1/2 tsp a day in some water. for a long time i didn't realize i had stones in my left bladder. it was near a bursitis point so i mixed up the two. you have to be careful using bicarbonate of soda especially if using it longer term and never take it with food.
I'm thinking it may be due to experimenting too much.maybe taking too much phosphoric acid, malic acid, chanca piedra and gold coin grass etc. i was playing around with modified citrus pectin too. i've had negative consequences from experimenting before but less complex situation.
i got to take some steps back from that stuff. maybe the kidney is being overwhelmed with this stuff. i eat a meat / fish diet so that will cause more acid kidney has to deal with i think. by taking it after meal digested, it may assist kidney in neutralizing the acid the protein causes. There is also issue of too much calcium being put in kidney by supplements that could be factor.
and of course i have to deal with liver congestion and bladder stones on top of that. i got just a couple cholesterol stones out the first couple flushes but very few. i didn't get anything out that i noticed on the third flush which i did 3 days after previous one. i will just have to keep trying but do it in some gentle way. i really wanted to dispose of the liver / gallbladder problem as quickly as possible because it complicates everything else. i wish i had done flush a long time ago. i use to hear people talk about liver congestion but never knew what it was. until one experiences it, it is hard to grasp it
right now i'd like to stabilize kidney stuff and find remedy for burning feet.
i think i will live thru today ... lol
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That's a relief !
I'm referring to Iron Overload, not iron deficiency, @prioris .
If you're getting enough iron through diet, I would not recommend taking any more iron. Blackstrap molasses does have copper, which can regulate iron metabolism. Helps with both high and low iron.
Iron accumulates in the liver, and can just wreck it. I used to have a great deal of liver pain, even a lesion. It's better now, but I'm sure there's more liver iron to rid.
Iron can interfere with calcium metabolism, but I'm unsure of the role that vitamin K2 has with iron. Will look for that.
I have come to realize something about burning feet. i've had this going on for the last 18 months in very intermittent points on my elbow and forearm so very minimal that i consider very incidental during that time. i thought it could be muscle nerve thing related to shoulder pain. i couldn't articulate what i was feeling until the burning feet happened but i think that was just another neuropathy symptom beyond my toes or more exact small fiber neuropathy. Lot of people on this forum have this problem.
Gondwanaland
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AFAIK homocysteine is what damages endothelium. Coconut oil was the single food that sent my homocysteine to its lowest levels (6.8), until I overdid it, then I became salicylate/sulfite intolerant- (still trying to understand salicylate aggravating relation with uric acid.
There is extense discussion of causal factors of CVD at drmalcolmkendrick.org
I think this discussion deserves its own thread.
I noticed high B15 intake causes it (whole grains, organ meats, brown rice, pumpkin and sunflower seeds), and B5 generally helps. Right now I must stay away from B5 due to low B2.
Just a quick note. I took 1000 mg of L-Carnitine and that seem to calm the burning sensation. i think taking something that was lowering cholesterol caused damage to my nerves. Lot of cholesterol lowering drugs cause neuropathy, So I will increase my cholesterol HDL to try to repair them.
Gondwanaland
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Just recently I read that carnitine lowers ammonia
Gondwanaland
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Orotate (from your lithium) might be causing hyperammonemia.
I looked into lithium carbonate and very weak connection to neuropathy. I am drinking chanca piedra tea twice a day so that may keep lithium from excreting normally. I am taking a break from lithium orotate to experiment but i have seemed to have built up some internal reserve. I am focusing on mitochondrial stuff like ubiquinone, carnitine, pqq, na-rala, coenzyme b complex etc. Lot of neuropathy connected to mitochondrial related diseases. I had neuropathy way before I started taking lithium orotate.
I should point out that alpha lipoic acid (na-r-ala) and l-carnitine has strong evidence that it is beneficial for heart disease / peripheral artery disease so something i will always take (on empty stomach) with k2 supplementation even if i didn't have neuropathy. it has too many health benefits not to take it. i do think the key to neuropathy is l-carnitine for regeneration, mitochondrial energy to fuel regeneration plus some cofactors and something else to inhibit what is breaking down the axon nerves so some type of inhibitor of this breaking down my be needed. some research has indicated MMP's like MMP-13 may be involved. these will be the variables in different people.
Little Bluestem
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I like Liver Care by Himalaya Herbal Healthcare.
Former member Dogperson, who was controversial, thought that B2 was needed to get iron out of the liver and into the red blood cells. You might do some research on anemia of chronic disease.