• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To register, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Hair Mineral Testing

garcia

Aristocrat Extraordinaire
Messages
976
Location
UK
We all know that the B vitamins work synergistically, but has anyone seen a source for the claim that taking a B complex depletes B2?

I haven't seen a source, though to me it does sound entirely plausible.

It's true that B2 is needed in the conversion of (at least some) other B vitamins to their active forms, but could this be circumvented by taking the active forms directly?

Yes, and this is what the methylation protocol does to some extent, e.g. by taking active forms of folate, B12 & B6.
But if B2 deficiency were the underlying cause then it would presumably be better to take B2 itself, since B2 is involved in things other than just converting the B vitamins (e.g. cellular energy).

How about taking the active B sublingually, so conversion is bypassed, and the vitamins are absorbed via diffusion?

Active forms of folate and B6 seem to be absorbed just fine from the gut (at least in my experience). B12 obviously is different, which is why sublingual so popular.
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
Doctor's Data (2009)

microgram/gram

calcium 374
magnesium 27
sodium 24
potassium 15
iron 5.1
copper 9.6
zinc 220
manganese 0.07
selenium 1.1
chromium 0.33
molybdenum 0.035
lithium < 0.004
cobalt 0.002

lead 0.11
mercury 0.06
cadmium 0.010
arsenic 0.046
aluminum 3.6
nickel 0.07


Doctor's Data (2010)
calcium 536
magnesium 32
sodium 56
potassium 8
iron 19
copper 13
zinc 220
manganese 0.15
selenium 1.2
chromium 0.32
molybdenum 0.039
lithium 0.004
cobalt 0.004

lead 0.07
mercury 0.08
cadmium 0.022
arsenic 0.04
aluminum 1.8
nickel 0.15
 

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
Dog Person, did you create this information, or what is the source?

Also, I believe no one here doubt that B2 is an essential nutrient. I assume that most members here take riboflavin already, on a regular basis.


I took these to be the sources of the info she posted, posted in the usual place at the bottom of the article.

9^ a b Brody, Tom (1999). Nutritional Biochemistry. San Diego: Academic Press. ISBN 0-12-134836-9. OCLC 212425693 39699995 51091036 162571066 212425693 39699995 51091036.
10^ Powers J. Hilary. Riboflavin (vitamin B-2) and health, Review Article. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;77:135260
 
Messages
10,157
I took these to be the sources of the info she posted, posted in the usual place at the bottom of the article.
9^ a b Brody, Tom (1999). Nutritional Biochemistry. San Diego: Academic Press. ISBN 0-12-134836-9. OCLC 212425693 39699995 51091036 162571066 212425693 39699995 51091036.
10^ Powers J. Hilary. Riboflavin (vitamin B-2) and health, Review Article. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;77:135260

Aquariusgirl -- actually, the first part of the post is copied from herbs2000.com which does not provide any references about where they got their information. Some of the information came directly from wikipedia. I tend to avoid using google for searches related to research because you tend to end up with links to vitamin/supplement companies that don't provide sources and are somewhat biased.

I use the Scirus sciientific search engine. I searched Riboflavin/vitamin B2 with Scirus and found many wonderful research articles re: B2/Riboflavin.

There was a research paper called: Mitochondrial Function and Toxicity - role of the B vitamin family on mitochondrial energy metabolism. The abstract looks like it would be a good read but the paper is behind a paywall.

It would actually be nice for Dog Person to tell us how her research stemming from hair analysis relates to people with ME/CFS, as it's unclear.
 
Messages
78
dmholmes
I did not see your phosphorus readings. Could you please add those. Also, have you been supplementing zinc or do you use a zinc shampoo?
Thanks
 

jeffrez

Senior Member
Messages
1,112
Location
NY
So wait a second: the new "cure" for ME/CFS this week is to take B2? And if you take it and have symptoms, just take less? What would I need a hair analysis for, then? Dog Person runs a hair analysis consulting business? In the 30+ years we've known of CFS, no researchers have considered riboflavin yet?

Hmmm
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
dmholmes
I did not see your phosphorus readings. Could you please add those. Also, have you been supplementing zinc or do you use a zinc shampoo?
Thanks

2009 - Phosphorus 247
2010 - Phosphorus 260

No on the shampoo, yes I was probably supplementing zinc at the time those were run.
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Here's the thing, and maybe it should be about the ONLY f--king thing once in awhile, B2, in a very marked way is helping some of us. I appreciate science much as the next guy, but I'm not throwing out experience because some research paper says otherwise(and of course, there's exceptions, what feels better is not always better). Still I'm happy I continued eating eggs and some red meat despite all the hoopla agaist it. And I'm glad I never took up decaf and that my mother chose not to go the hormone replacement rout despite the research touting them.

I don't know, think my point is ME'ers find themselves in a different boat, research, at least until recently, hasn't done a lot to help us, and if some of us find something that does then waiting years on the proper research just ain't an option. Some of us will take our chances.

Speaking of God, seems some here place proper sources and research on an equal footing. I mean, if B2 or something else quite as simple did cure us(no way saying it will) and us 'cured' started doing double-back flips and cartwheels and memorizing general relativity and lots of others signs we were better, I think there'd still be some here tapping their keyboard: Where's the research?


So wait a second: the new "cure" for ME/CFS this week is to take B2? And if you take it and have symptoms, just take less? What would I need a hair analysis for, then? Dog Person runs a hair analysis consulting business? In the 30+ years we've known of CFS, no researchers have considered riboflavin yet?

Hmmm
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Speaking of God, seems some here place proper sources and research on an equal footing. I mean, if B2 or something else quite as simple did cure us(no way saying it will) and us 'cured' started doing double-back flips and cartwheels and memorizing general relativity and lots of others signs we were better, I think there'd still be some here tapping their keyboard: Where's the research?

Anybody can claim anything. Uri Geller claimed he could bend spoons. It even looked like he could; he demonstrated it over and over. But somehow, under controlled conditions, he never could.
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Hi adreno, under somewhat controlled conditions(not taking anything else right now) I still think I'm better. Not sure someone wants to research me to prove that, however.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not against good research at all, it's just that in our special circumstance, you may have to trust experience as well.

Best,

Lou

Anybody can claim anything. Uri Geller claimed he could bend spoons. It even looked like he could; he demonstrated it over and over. But somehow, under controlled conditions, he never could.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hi adreno, under somewhat controlled conditions(not taking anything else right now) I still think I'm better. Not sure someone wants to research me to prove that, however.

Yes, but I don't know if you're better, only that you're telling me you are. And I don't know if I will be better, if I do the same as you.

Even if I believe that you're better, I don't know whether this is due to B2 (in this case), placebo, or some third unknown factor that happened to coincide.

I agree we do have to experiment. But I still like to have at least a plausible mechanism for why a suggested treatment might help. I wouldn't try a rife machine, for instance, because I don't believe in the underlying "theory".

That said, I'm currently trialing riboflavin also. I regard it as an easy and low risk treatment. As long as the theory is not falsified, and is at least plausible, I'll consider it. But if I find evidence, from a credible source, that the theory is invalid, I'll drop the treatment and try something else.

There has to be some way we select treatment modalities to try, and currently this is the priority I value them by:

1. Randomized, controlled trials.
2. Other studies, single case studies.
3. Clinical experience from credible doctors
4. Anecdotes

So far, for this B2 theory, we have only anecdotes, which is the least credible of evidence. This, of course, does not mean that the theory can't be right, it very well might turn out to be.

I'm not asking for research showing B2 will cure or improve CFS, that research doesn't exist. I'm just looking for evidence to validate the mechanism of B2 as proposed by Dog Person.

If her claims checks out, it strengthens the credibility of her theory. If not...well.

Same goes for Rich VanK. Do I have evidence that CFS is caused by a methylation block? No. But his theory sounds plausible, is logically coherent, the mechanism is possible and the facts he states are supported by evidence. That makes it a treatment worth trying, in my view.
 

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
Kina: Sorry. You've lost me...Are you saying those sources at the bottom of her post are not the only sources? Wikipedia could have copied some of the stuff from those textbookss/papers.

Anyhoo, this is getting a bit inside baseball now.. so I'm going to leave it there.
 
Messages
10,157
Kina: Sorry. You've lost me...Are you saying those sources at the bottom of her post are not the only sources? Wikipedia could have copied some of the stuff from those textbookss/papers.

Anyhoo, this is getting a bit inside baseball now.. so I'm going to leave it there.

I am saying that most of the post has been sourced from other websites which probably should have been linked to (re copyright). Wikipedia usually has links to sources of information -- I believe it's a requirement.

Kina.
 

Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
Hi, dog person.

I'm wondering if you are familiar with these two books:

Nutritional Balancing and Hair Mineral Analysis, by Lawrence Wilson, M.D.

and

Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities, by Andrew Hall Cutler, Ph.D., P.E.

If so, I would like to know what you think about them, and whether or not you agree with the approaches described in them.

Best regards,

Rich

I am wondering why dogperson never answered Rich's questions???????????
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
...
That said, I'm currently trialing riboflavin also. I regard it as an easy and low risk treatment.
...
How about keeping your dose low until Christine posts her explanation and you understand more of the underlying theory? I am not sure it is low risk if your metabolism is badly messed up.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
How about keeping your dose low until Christine posts her explanation and you understand more of the underlying theory? I am not sure it is low risk if your metabolism is badly messed up.

How would knowing more theory change the risks?

You can read all you want about motorcycle driving, but it still carries the same risks.

I don't regard taking B2 as any more risky than taking all the other drugs and supplements that people are trying.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
I agree. I don't consider trialing B2 as high risk either. I believe most people here have trialed many different supplements and have gotten to know their bodies pretty well as far as reactions to them. At low doses and it only being a vitamin, its not like we are trialing LSD here.