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Hair Mineral Testing

baccarat

Senior Member
Messages
188
Christine,
thank you for clarifying who you are and what your company actually does.
Early on in the thread I was quite harsh with you because of a lack of transparency in approach. With hindsight I now realise that was a bit too much and I want to apologise for that.


I personally am worried by the lack of clear information, and by the advice to change supplements from someone with no understanding of the chemistry of CFS. At the same time, I'm all for alternative medicine, and all for us making our own decisions about what we want to experiment with.

The messiness here is that this looks like a softball sales pitch (not saying it is that, just that it looks like it to me), and PR doesn't have precise guidelines about this.

Best to all,

Madie

I remain skeptical about hair analysis. It's a test that hasn't helped me at all in the past and I struggle to see how it can deliver a full picture of a person nutritional status.
I'm not an expert, but I understand there are so many processes going on in the body with an endless number of proteins and enzymes and I wonder whether hair can capture any key aspect of that and offer a summary view.

As for the actual chemistry of CFS I don't think there's anybody who really understands it or we would all be well by now.
I don't think we can ask Christine to sort out CFS or all our problems. I don;'t think that was ever her intention (correct me if I'm wrong). But if she can come up with some general nutritional guidelines that can apply across the board then that's a good thing.

I like some of Christine's ideas, about nutrition and supplements as I can relate to those.
I've just experimenting with B2 and I must admit that it's been making me feel pretty crappy, depressed in fact, which is unusual for me. So there must be something there.
I also agree with her conclusion that we with CFS are in a chronic fight-or-flight status. Then the question is how to shift away from that towards a better balance. If we can achieve that, I think a lot of our health problems would be solved.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
I see no evidence of this being a softball sales pitch. If it was, being that Brenda has consulted with her on her hair analysis, I'm sure Brenda would have enough guts to forewarn us and Brenda speaks highly of her and that is good enough for me. If I'm not mistaken, Brenda is only taking small amounts of B2<which can be bought cheaply anywhere>, and staying away from certain types of food. This is hardly a "buy my overpriced product because it works like magic" from a snake oil salesman. We have all seen enough of those kind of people.

Yes, some people might assume it "could be" a sales pitch to make money off of solely the hair analysis but I don't see it this way either. Even if it was, so what???? We live in free capitalist societies and people should be compensated for the work they do.

I've seen and listened to enough snake oil salesman in my time, and I just don't see it in this case.
 
Messages
78
I want to try and address your concerns.

I am not a researcher. I am a housewife. I have a simple degree that allows me to review hair mineral tests for dogs, cats and humans.

What I am currently writing regarding humans, addresses why a nutritional imbalance may have affected the world and why some are affected one way and others a different way. The theory is not on CSF/ME.

I am not researching CSF/ME. Unless a medical researcher asks me work with him/her, than legally I can not. It is illegal for any person trained in hair mineral analysis interpretation to address any medical subject. If my company were legally closed because I spoke regarding a medical condition, then my theory that might help people obtain better health would never happen.

My company looks at the energy systems of the body and applies nutritional knowledge to those systems.

I felt a more precise level of review was needed after I reviewed the 29 hairs charts that were offered from your forum. Thus testing is underway for a few people that will use the same sampling methods and the same lab. This may take several months since several of the tests went to various countries.

Should the second set of results indicate the same results as the first group, then my observations indicate that there is a specific commonality in the disruption of the energy systems in your group (CSF/ME).

If anyone has further concerns or questions, please contact me via email through my website.

Since my "profit" from this seems to be a concern I'll address this also. I collect thousands a year and do hundreds of tests. However, to run a company also takes thousands. I set my company fees up so as not to make a profit; which I have not. Money in = money out. It is to help and learn only. And as you've seen, I have donated my own money to cover over $800 worth of hair tests, as well as my time, in an effort to further my observations.

If you have been to my website then you will see that I give God full credit "Original design by God".

Kina has just contacted me via private message stating that I am advertising by listing my company website. First you want to know who I am, now that you know, you won't let anyone new contact me. Then she corrected my listing of CSF/ME instead of ME/CSF.

I quit. Good Bye everyone.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
Right, some of those comments were less than gracefully put, although their concerns are valid. But this was far back in the thread, as you yourself mentioned, so I don't know why you want to bring that up again. Also, those people haven't really been active in the discussion here.

Some of us have felt unable to continue taking part in this discussion due to being shouted down and accused of being disrespectful. I do not appreciate having my valid concerns brought up (again) and posed as disrespect. Yes i did offer an apology on line to DP for the way i worded my comments, but i dont apologise for the questions i asked. Now further on in this discussion i see others asking the same questions that i asked right in the beginning, and yet somehow i am the bad guy.

I am so happy to hear if anyone has help from a particular approach, drug, treatment or supplement, i am not against people recieveing help. I believe that Christine has a genuine interest and desire to helpm others throuhg her company - this is not in doubt for me. BUT, it is possible that she will now recieve business from this thread - and it may have been her intention all along - to drum up business for her hair testing and then analysis - after all anyone can get hair testing done anywhere, but no one may know where to get it properly interpreted.

This is aside form any reservations i mayt have about hairt testing in general.

In 2011, a systematic review of the literature found that any attempt to provide a diagnosis based on hair for an individual is not possible. (Kempson 2011)

The American Medical Association (AMA) states, The AMA opposes chemical analysis of the hair as a determinant of the need for medical therapy and supports informing the American public and appropriate governmental agencies of this unproven practice and its potential for health care fraud. (AMA Policy)

From http://www.skepticalhealth.com/2011/12/10/hair-analysis-scams/

Commercial hair analysis. Science or scam?
Barrett S.
Abstract
Hair samples from two healthy teenagers were sent under assumed names to 13 commercial laboratories performing multimineral hair analysis. The reported levels of most minerals varied considerably between identical samples sent to the same laboratory and from laboratory to laboratory. The laboratories also disagreed about what was "normal" or "usual" for many of the minerals. Most reports contained computerized interpretations that were voluminous, bizarre, and potentially frightening to patients. Six laboratories recommended food supplements, but the types and amounts varied widely from report to report and from laboratory to laboratory. Literature from most of the laboratories suggested that their reports were useful in managing a wide variety of diseases and supposed nutrient imbalances. However, commercial use of hair analysis in this manner is unscientific, economically wasteful, and probably illegal
.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4021042
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,277
Location
UK
Justy I am sorry I should not have used your comment which you did apologise for. I did think of removing it but it would have meant more trawling for me.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
Hi Rand - i do agree, im not the least bit enthralled by the AMA the GMC or big pharma. I was just trying to give an alternative viewpoint as the validity of hair mineral testing is not proven and i think it could be part of this general discussion.
All the best, Justy.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
This study found HMA to be unreliable:

"CONTEXT: Hair mineral analysis is being used by health care practitioners and promoted by laboratories as a clinical assessment tool and to identify toxic exposures, despite a 1985 study that found poor reliability for this test.

OBJECTIVE: To assess whether the reliability of data from commercial laboratories advertising multimineral hair analyses for nutritional or toxicity assessment has improved since the 1985 study.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: A split hair sample taken from near the scalp of a single healthy volunteer was submitted for analysis to 6 commercial US laboratories, which analyze 90% of samples submitted for mineral analysis in the United States.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Agreement of test results for each analyte, laboratory reference ranges, laboratory characteristics, and interpretation of health implications.

RESULTS: Laboratory differences in highest and lowest reported mineral concentrations for the split sample exceeded 10-fold for 12 minerals, and statistically significant (P<.05) extreme values were reported for 14 of the 31 minerals that were analyzed by 3 or more laboratories. Variations also were found in laboratory sample preparation methods and calibration standards. Laboratory designations of normal reference ranges varied greatly, resulting in conflicting classifications (high, normal, or low) of nearly all analyzed minerals. Laboratories also provided conflicting dietary and nutritional supplement recommendations based on their results.

CONCLUSIONS: Hair mineral analysis from these laboratories was unreliable, and we recommend that health care practitioners refrain from using such analyses to assess individual nutritional status or suspected environmental exposures. Problems with the regulation and certification of these laboratories also should be addressed.

PMID 11150111".
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
The authors of this study suggests that it is the varying washing techniques of different labs, that is the major cause of the variation seen:

"The variance of testing was compared between the College of American Pathologists clinical survey and that of a recent review about hair mineral testing. The review suggested that the accuracy of hair mineral testing was unreliable. In general, there was a greater range of variance in the College of American Pathologists testing results. These latter results are based on laboratory testing and are used as a "yardstick" to determine if a laboratory passes or fails that analyte and are considered a "gold standard." An extract, which resulted from a method that avoided the washing step, was compared among five laboratories. Very good precision resulted, indicating that the varied washing steps used by the laboratories in a recent review were probably the source of much variance. Analysis of hair analysis seemed to yield important information in several historical or forensic cases involving Ludwig von Beethoven, Napoleon Bonaparte, ex-US-presidents Zachary Taylor and Andrew Jackson, and Charles Hall, an Arctic explorer. Several elements that were reviewed, including arsenic, cadmium, cobalt, germanium, lead, lithium, manganese, mercury, nickel, and thallium, showed relationships between body burden, dosage, and exposure or toxicity. Evidence of toxicity could not be found by measuring hair aluminum or vanadium. Chromium, selenium, and zinc seemed to have nutritional value. Ratios of hair elements with clinical importance could not be found.

PMID 12117220".
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
Hi Rand - i do agree, im not the least bit enthralled by the AMA the GMC or big pharma. I was just trying to give an alternative viewpoint as the validity of hair mineral testing is not proven and i think it could be part of this general discussion.
All the best, Justy.

hi Justy

Understood. I didn't mean to imply that you thought exactly the same way as the AMA. Just a broad statement I made that they will go out of their way to try to discredit other points of view other than their own...and yes...Big Pharma included.
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
I think we all get what you're saying, Adreno, but this is not an academic setting, and there's been tons of unproven tips and suggestions made about helpful remedies of all kind made on this forum without all the pushback Christine has seen, and her help appears to have already shown benefit for some and it's been accomplished without twenty million dollars of study or a decade long approval process.

There are wonderful --except for the money agenda-- peer reviewed studies of all manner of drugs that do untold harm to people everyday. As you yourself have stated, we find ourselves in a unique situation, our disease has the ability to muddle many screening tests and react differently to drugs than intended. So, it's not always absurd to be your own guinea pig, or to welcome someone who has a new approach that might help.

All the best,

Lou



Being asked to expand and refine your ideas, is not going through ****. In any academic setting, you will be asked to defend your hypothesis. If someone wants to publish a paper, they better get ready for questions.

When people ask critical questions (as any good grade teacher would do), it gives you the opportunity to develop your theory further. It is healthy debate that catalyze this development.

If you want to present a strong hypothesis, it must be able to answer some basic questions. The hypothesis must be able to explain why some get sick and others don't. It must also be able to explain all the symptoms of the disease, not just some of them.

When Einstein made his relativity theory, he also presented a way in which he could be disproved. Incidentally, he wasn't (or hasn't yet been), but he may be one day.

Just remember that even though you see a 1000 white swans, you cannot conclude that all swans are white. You might see a black swan tomorrow. And so it is in science. Theories are "correct" until proven wrong. So the strongest theories, are those that can withstand the most attempts of being disproven.

Trying to disprove a theory is an honorable thing to do, and something the scientist himself should undertake. It has nothing to do with bashing, but everything to do with selecting the strongest theories.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I am not a researcher. I am a housewife. I have a simple degree that allows me to review hair mineral tests for dogs, cats and humans.

You've referenced this hair mineral analysis degree before. Is it the "Diploma in Nutritional Balancing Science" you received for doing the course listed on Dr Lawrence Wilson's website (reading his books, a test via email, paying $500, consultations reviewed by another student of his, and buying supplements from the lab you and he both use)?

If so, I think it would be disingenuous to refer to that as a degree of any sort. "Westbrook University", who supplies the diploma, is completely unaccredited by any legitimate authority and has trouble staying licensed at all as a business. They offer "master degrees" and "doctorates" that consist of courses on par with what is available in a community college. And even they won't go so far as to call that diploma a degree.

I do not think a lack of a degree is something to be ashamed of, but I do think it's important not to overstate qualifications.
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
For all of us who have experimented on ourselves with 100's of different supplements, herbs, drugs, diets, hormones, protocols, practitioners, and etc., it is always a challenge to risk trying another one. If the potential for further damage to one's health is too great, or the effects of a given protocol are too adverse to handle, then IMO it's not a good idea for me to venture into it. But if the risk of damage and the expense in terms of total dollars spent is minimal, then my thought is... why the hell shouldn't I give it a shot?

Whatever works to increase my energy and decrease my debilitating symptoms is a good thing in my book. The only way I will know if it will work FOR ME is by trying it. And personally, I don't need a peer reviewed study to give me the stamp of approval for that.
 

Rand56

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Myrtle Beach, SC
You've referenced this hair mineral analysis degree before. Is it the "Diploma in Nutritional Balancing Science" you received for doing the course listed on Dr Lawrence Wilson's website (reading his books, a test via email, paying $500, consultations reviewed by another student of his, and buying supplements from the lab you and he both use)?

If so, I think it would be disingenuous to refer to that as a degree of any sort. "Westbrook University", who supplies the diploma, is completely unaccredited by any legitimate authority and has trouble staying licensed at all as a business. They offer "master degrees" and "doctorates" that consist of courses on par with what is available in a community college. And even they won't go so far as to call that diploma a degree.

I do not think a lack of a degree is something to be ashamed of, but I do think it's important not to overstate qualifications.

If this is true and I don't know if it is...who cares??? Ever think that she could know a heck of a lot more from her experience and research than from any other Joe Blow who has a "piece of paper"?

I could care less if she might not have certain "validating" documentation that other people will deem "necessary" that she should have. For the people on here that need that validation, all the power to you, just don't listen to what she has to say and don't let her analyze your hair results. You have that right, BUT don't ruin this for the rest of us that are seeking more help from her because this constant nitpicking and parsing of words is getting us nowhere with Christine and fast!!

Valentijn, I apologize if I took your post the wrong way, some other people could have taken it the same way I did so I wanted to respond. By the way, one of the most intelligent and well read person that I know, never got a college degree.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I could care less if she might not have certain "validating" documentation that other people will deem "necessary" that she should have.

I don't care either, as I stated already.

But I do care about people that come here claiming to do research, yet end up selling a product while making misleading claims about their qualifications.

If that is what has happened here, I would think it's an indication to proceed with caution.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Dog Person said:
Kina has just contacted me via private message stating that I am advertising by listing my company website. First you want to know who I am, now that you know, you won't let anyone new contact me.

I think this is a problem. What is the policy here; no business owners can post? Could we have some clarification of the rules?