From Bedbound to Fit and Able in 14 Days: Effects of the Amazonian Medicine Kambo on a CFS Patient

[Hip]

I would say from professional and personal experience that psychosis is easier to induce than it is to predict its endpoint, and sometimes psychosis that originates from the ingestion of a substance or drug doesn't resolve when that substance is withdrawn.

Yes, that is a worry for me in my experiments with kambo and dermorphin: that they might induce some psychosis which then remains as a permanent symptom.

The mild psychosis I have experienced many times in the past was anxiety psychosis, driven my severe generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). It would rise and fall with my anxiety symptoms.

These days, my GAD is well under control, if not eliminated, so I rarely get any psychosis symptoms at all now, thank goodness. This is why I was surprised to observe that dermorphin brought some psychosis back again for one day.

I wonder if the mild psychosis I experienced four days after taking dermorphin was in fact a mini version of opiate withdrawal induced psychosis.

 

[sianrecovery]

Interesting link. Maybe I'm being purist about this, but I've worked with and experienced opiate withdrawal and I have also worked with and experienced psychosis from stimulants - not for many years I hasten to add. And I've worked with psychosis in its usual mental health presentations. I would say that they are using a wide definition of psychosis in that link, and that not everyone would agree the generalised awfulness and anxiety that accompanies withdrawal really fits.
But well done you on getting control of your severe anxiety symptoms- what a fantastic achievement. I guess if you had one of those brains to start with that lacked all the groovy juice (sorry for complex technical terms) you were more susceptible to anxiety, and possibly to the effects of the kambo.

 

[Marlène]

Hi Marlène

Thanks very much for that suggestion. I have tried LDN on a number of occasions, taking around 4.2 mg daily before bed. I find it hard to notice any benefits from LDN, though equally, I don't experience any negative symptoms from LDN, apart from a slight increase in anhedonia and emotional flatness. Though I have never taken LDN for more than around 6 weeks.

Do you think I should try LDN for longer? You say it takes a year to get your immune cells fully recovered with receptors.

I do find I get mild benefits and a mild mood boost from taking D-phenylalanine or germanium sesquioxide, which both boost endorphins. I want to try Garum armoricum at some point too, as this also boosts endorphins.

I checked with other people. Some people compensate the flatness with D-phenylalaline as well. You might have to wait several months before you notice any changes in your immune response as I mentioned before.

There is a Facebook group as well: https://www.facebook.com/groups/LDNRT/
You can always ask for more info there.

 

[Hip]

Kambo for ME/CFS: Feeling Worse Before You Feel Better

I have been conversing on this kambo.me forum with a kambo practitioner named Galega. Galega said she has treated several clients who have ME/CFS with kambo, and has observed the general response that ME/CFS patients have to the kambo treatment.

I asked Galega whether ME/CFS patients feel worse for a few days after taking kambo, before they feel better, and she confirmed this: Galega said that the ME/CFS patients she treated with kambo were all wiped out for 4 or 5 days following the treatment, but after that period, they started to improve and felt some benefits. These benefits were then sustained for another 4 or 5 days, before they wore off. Galega found that with subsequent kambo treatments, as the patient gained health, this wiped out period was reduced (ie, fewer days feeling wiped out), and the benefit period was increased (ie, more days feeling the benefits).

Feeling worse after kambo is very unusual, because generally speaking, most people tend to feel great in the days following a kambo trip — this is the case even for people who are sick, and have taken kambo as a medicine. It is only ME/CFS patients that seem to feel worse in the days following a kambo treatment. As a proposed explanation for this feeling worse, I suggest that the significant muscular contractions arising from the copious and intense purging (vomiting and diarrhea) that kambo induces may be exhausting ME/CFS patients, and that this physical exercise then gives the ME/CFS patient PEM (post exertional malaise) for several days following the kambo session.

Here is what Galega said about her method of treating ME/CFS patients with kambo:

"I have treated several people with CFS. The way that the treatments are given is very important. I start low to guage the persons tolerance. You can see how weak or strong a person is by how long it takes them to recover after Kambo. The key is to build up slowly but to treat frequently. I have learnt this through experience. The first people that I treated were wiped out for days afterwards. I noticed that with subsequent treatments this period of time got shorter. So first few treatments, it was maybe four/five days before the person started to feel some benefit and the benefits wore off within another four or five days. With subsequent treatments this recovery period reduced and the benefit period increased. In most cases the person felt worse after the treatment than before."
Source: here.

Galega suggests that after a year of regular kambo treatments, once the gains in health have been made, ME/CFS patients may then only need to take kambo once every 2 to 3 months as a maintenance dose, which she says is easily sustainable.


Technique for Creating Light 'On The Surface' Skin Burns

Galega says that the skin burns should not be an issue of concern, and she also points out that the burns only need be very small, just 2 to 4 mm in diameter:

"Not sure I understand what the issue is with the skin burns. They can be very small, ranging from 2 - 4 millimetres across. You can do tiny ones with an ultra fine incense stick — just do more burns, or do two back to back treatments on the same burns. They heal pretty much invisible. If you are taking Kambo on a regular basis you can reuse the same points over and over. Just wait until they are fully healed in 2 to 3 months and use them again. I have burns that I reuse 4 or 5 times a year. If you are doing cigarette sized burns and spacing them out then that's a little ugly. Small burns, strategically positioned (if you need discretion) and close together in a pattern are no worse than a tattoo. I love mine and I'm very proud of them. For those of us that have used kambo to aid our recovery from illness, they are a reminder of what we have overcome on our journey."
Source: here.

Galega also gives some very good advice (and a link to a video) on the art of making light 'on the surface' burns to administer the kambo:

"As you get healthier, the burns heal faster and I make plasters from plant extracts to heal them even faster. When they are fully healed and faded to white, you can reuse them, no problem. The other thing that I see, especially with self administered burns, but also with some practitioners, is deep burns. This is not necessary, you only need to scrape off the top layer of skin — there should be no blood or redness, just a small white patch. The burn is so 'on the surface' that it will heal really well. This just takes practice. Its a light touch and a downward flick of the wrist rather than a pressing in action.

Have a look at THIS VIDEO — this is nice burn work, and notice the wrist action."

In the video, go to timecode 7:48 to see the wrist action technique of creating light 'on the surface' burns, and go to timecode 14:25 to see how to place some kambo on the skin burns, where it gets absorbed into the body.
Source: here.

The Frog's Disease

Regarding the "frog's disease" that people occasionally pick up when they take kambo intranasally by snorting it. I suspected this was some type of microbial disease caused by a microbe in the frog's secretion, and Galega, when she was in Brazil recently, asked one on the Kaxinawa Indians about this disease, and learnt from this Indian that:

"Frog disease is a viral type illnes that cannot be gotten rid of. It is unknown to the outside world. Amongst other things, it can apparently weaken the heart muscles and cause cardiac arrest and have some effects on the brain - he described it as 'eating the brain'! Indians who snort snuff with kambo in it do so only very occasionally and always in conjunction with heavy kambo sessions so the live kambo acts as a kind of anti venom/viral. Even so, it is still considered risky, he says, and only for those with strong hearts and systems (eg, regular kambo users). His view is that kambo taken orally could also cause the same problem."
Source: here.

This frog's disease is only a risk if you take kambo intranasally. Apparently the frog's disease does not occur if you take kambo by the proper skin burn method.

 

[Memphis]

Fascinating story from Jox, and while it might seem farfetched to some, after a couple sessions with the medicine I completely believe such things now. (That's me in that link. Those are my burns in the original post!)

 

[Lou]

Fascinating story from Jox, and while it might seem farfetched to some, after a couple sessions with the medicine I completely believe such things now. (That's me in that link. Those are my burns in the original post!)

Well, that's interesting, but do you mind telling us a bit more about your experience? Kudos for moxie in trying this.

 

[Hip]

Well, that's interesting, but do you mind telling us a bit more about your experience?

Memphis has written about his experiences with kambo here.

 

[Memphis]

Well, that's interesting, but do you mind telling us a bit more about your experience? Kudos for moxie in trying this.

Yep, as Hip posted, both experiences are written on that blog, but I'll give you a version without all of the fluff and heat of the moment writing.

Peru has been a trip I've wanted to do for years now. Not for vacation, but for self improvement. I've heard a beautiful many things about the place and finally got the opportunity last summer. I won't say I have any serious ailment or disease that sent me in that direction, but I have always felt extremely oppressed by the irrationally of my mind and certain aspects of my childhood. Call it depression, anxiety, whatever such a thing is, I wanted it gone, and nothing I was doing was making any progress.

Jump to Peru. I lived for three months down there, 2 of those months in a house I was renting with a few other people. One such roommate had been performing the Kambo regiments for years. He offered, I accepted. My first experience was pretty brutal, but I made some serious progress toward my goal. My second sitting, and four points of Kambo, really solidified my experience and gave me a real and lasting framework to avoid slipping backward. It has been a year and 4 days actually, since my first experience and I'm still feeling free of that which I wanted to lose.

The Kambo itself, brought on quite violent vomiting, but after about 30min I was fine and went on with my day. Others took longer, some were down for half the day before their stomachs settled.

In the months I was there I saw quite a few people make some progress with addictions/pain/disease (Crohn's specifically). I'm still in contact with a few of them, and they are doing really well.

Medically speaking, I have no idea about the realities of the Kambo, I'm only speaking from what I saw, and from what I experienced. I won't say it's for everyone, at all. But for me, personally, I feel like I really saved my own life by getting the burns.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

And I thought the herbal antiviral treatments I have been considering we're alternative, wow. Thanks for this thread, just fascinating.

 

[justy]

Interesting thread - I found it on google search as a good friend and neighbour just did a Kambo ceremony - doing it two days in a row and feels amazing (she does not have M.E) She has offered for her firend the Shaman to do it for me, but i'm juts not up for it - too afraid to even consider it as I feel so vulnerable right now...but an interesting thread.

 

[acrosstheveil]

i'd be worried about an anaphylactic type reaction with all my sensitivities these days. I've read a lot about kambo and even considered ordering some at one point. I heard it's a great thing to do before brewing up some b. caapi + psychotria viridis.

 

[Iquitos]

b. caapi + psychotria viridis is ayahuasca. I did three weeks in the Peruvian Amazon at a "retreat" using this concoction. I arrived walking and left in a wheelchair.

It was probably the biggest mistake I've ever made in trying "alternative" treatments. It nearly killed me and may have done if I had not refused to continue the more abusive aspects of the "treatment." It took me at least 5 months to recover to the level of health I had before I did that, and of course, cost a great deal of money -- wasted money and energy, health and time.

Vomiting and diarrhea (to the extent I was bleeding from the anus) were part of the "treatment" plan. And those jungle shamans have got the "blame the patient" thing down, just like the medical industry has here. They said I was "resisting" mama ayahuasca, as if anyone could resist it and still be vomiting so bad it feels like your body will turn inside out.

Anyway, thanks to Hip for this thread. I'll enjoy reading the links.

 

[Hip]

Wow, that's quite a story, @Iquitos.

You do occasionally hear of remissions from ME/CFS, though, when taking ayahuasca or dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT is of course the main psychedelic ingredient in ayahuasca.

For example, see this account of an ME/CFS patient who took 3 ayahuasca trips on different occasions, and each time he said he had 100% remission from ME/CFS and all its symptoms for the duration of the ayahuasca trips.



And there is this account of someone who had ME/CFS for 6 years, but says he was cured after just one dose of pure smoked DMT (but he only posted follow up comments for around a month).

Could DMT have precipitated viral clearance in his body?

DMT interacts with a number of receptors: DMT affects eight types of serotonin receptor, as well as the dopamine D1 receptor, the alpha 1 and 2 adrenergic receptors, the sigma-1 receptor, and others. Ref: here.

I found this interesting paper, which said that higher peripheral serotonin levels are linked to better outcomes from antiviral treatment for hepatitis C virus. So might the activation of serotonin receptors by DMT have some kind of antiviral effect, leading to a remission from ME/CFS?



DMT Sources

Some people extract DMT from plants that contain it like Psychotria viridis or Mimosa hostilis, and then smoke this DMT. By smoking DMT, you bypass the MAO enzyme in the stomach which breaks down DMT, so you don't need to use an MAO inhibitor as you do with ayahuasca (the ayahuasca brew contains potent MAO inhibitors which come from the Banisteriopsis caapi plant to prevent DMT breakdown). And when smoking pure DMT, I understand there is rarely any vomiting.

Trouble is, I have read that pure DMT trips, fascinating as they sound, are in many respects more intensely psychedelic than even LSD, so people like myself with psychiatric comorbidities to their ME/CFS (namely anxiety, anhedonia, emotional flatness, and occasionally some mild psychosis) might be at risk of precipitating psychosis from DMT.

Although I wouldn't mind trying micro-doses of DMT (doses too small to produce a major psychedelic effect), to see if that would help with any ME/CFS symptoms. DMT is illegal in most countries, but the plants that contain DMT are not, and there are various DMT extraction recipes on the internet. There is a thread here about low dose DMT (apparently there is no tolerance build up), but I was thinking of even smaller micro-doses of DMT.



I did some micro-dosing of the legal psychedelic herb Tabernanthe iboga a few years ago, to see if it would help my anhedonia and emotional flatness (blunted affect) — the iboga trip is a profoundly emotional one, so this is why I though it might help treat emotional flatness — but I did not notice any major improvement, though it helped a bit. Also increased my general conscious awareness for several days after. Iboga is the herb that can completely cure alcohol or heroin addiction in just one session. Iboga appears to reset the brain's tolerance of and addiction to a substance.

 

[Iquitos]

@Hip That account is one of the reasons I was willing to take a chance on ayahuasca. And as you say, anyone who claims remission using it just disappears after a few posts, or I found they had relapsed. I don't doubt it's effective for depression and alcohol and drug addiction cures. At least there are quite a few people claiming it worked for them.

Apparently iboga works in a similar way. It's proponents claim it's a spiritual cure, like they do with ayahuasca. That leaves the patient subjected to the "you didn't have enough faith" excuse when it doesn't work for them. To me, that is sort of a "the fault is in your stars" excuse.

At the moment, medical cannabis is doing me a lot of good. Wish I'd found out about it before I spent that money, energy, health and time in the Amazon.

 

[Mij]

Lisa Ling (on CNN) did a whole show on ayahuasca ceramonies for people with PTSD. It really helped them. There were also claims that ayahuasca tourists died from this.

 

[Dufresne]

A light dose of Psilocybe semilanceata, aka liberty caps, relieved most of my symptoms for a day. Though this was about ten years ago before PEM was a problem. The best description I can offer is it felt as if I was put in tune with the world for the first time. This occurred on less than .5 of a gram. The most intense part of the trip, that was only slightly unsettling, lasted less than a half hour as I believe a sort of recalibration took place. However the aftereffects were what I most enjoyed: the feeling of utter confidence and security stemming from the perception of interconnectedness, and zero brain fog and an incisive intuition. Although I wouldn't want to waste those feelings on such an activity, if you were to dose some hours before a poker tournament you'd probably do very well. For me all perceptible effects wore off over the next day or so, though some people report similar feelings persisting for weeks or months after a dose.

 

[Hip]

However the aftereffects were what I most enjoyed: the feeling of utter confidence and security stemming from the perception of interconnectedness, and zero brain fog and an incisive intuition.

That sounds promising; daily psilocybin micro-dosing is also something I would like to try.

I did some experiments with fly agaric mushroom (Amanita muscaria) micro-dosing, trying 100 to 200 mg of the dried mushroom each day. Fly agaric is a dissociative rather than a psychedelic. I wanted to try fly agaric because of these reports that fly agaric micro-dosing dramatically improved the brain fog of one female with Lyme disease — to quote her: "[fly agaric has] taken me from being an exhausted cripple with severe dementia-like symptoms to being pretty much a 'normal' person again."

 

[Sparrowhawk]

So @Hip I'm curious what the results of that experimentation was w. the mushrooms for you? How did it go?

 

[Hip]

So @Hip I'm curious what the results of that experimentation was w. the mushrooms for you? How did it go?

I had a very slightly spacey and detached feeling from the fly agaric micro-dosing, possibly a very slightly altered perspective on things, but no improvements in brain fog or other ME/CFS symptoms as far as I was aware. However, I only took these fly agaric micro-doses about 10 times, not quite enough times to get a proper handle on its effects. I ought to take a bit more to try and get a better sense of it. But certainly it was not the magic cure for my brain fog. Might be for some ME/CFS patients though.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Thanks @Hip , sorry it didn't work out for you but great that you have been able to do some experimenting.