From Bedbound to Fit and Able in 14 Days: Effects of the Amazonian Medicine Kambo on a CFS Patient

[acrosstheveil]

i've taken iboga few times. only did a full flood dose once. it was one of the best experiences of my life. took all the doubt away from my spiritual beliefs. I felt emotionally better than I have ever felt in my life but did not help with the illness aspect.

i've been planning on starting a microdosing regimen for a few months now. but it does not mix well with any medications and i have been on a lot with all my crazy symptoms these days. I need a few weeks alone to be able to do this and that just hasn't happened yet.

i've also had a reduction in symptoms temporarily following smoked dmt. although, it is never permanent, and quite frankly, still scares the crap out of me even after many experiences with it. iboga, on the otherhand, was quite comforting.

also i hope this isn't against the rules. I've been banned from other forums for discussing alternative treatments such as this. even medical mmj...

 

[Hip]

i've also had a reduction in symptoms temporarily following smoked dmt. although, it is never permanent, and quite frankly, still scares the crap out of me even after many experiences with it.

Yes, I would be very wary of taking a full DMT dose, even if I were healthy. It's not like LSD, where reality and your thoughts are distorted from the normal, and you may hallucinate, but basically you are still inhabiting the same reality; whereas with DMT I understand your consciousness leaves this world and is catapulted, in a disembodied state, into an entirely different universe. I read that many people when first taking DMT think that they have accidentally killed themselves, because this is what they assume when they have become a disembodied consciousness in some parallel reality unconnected to the physical world. I am totally fascinated by these DMT trip reports though.

It has recently been shown that DMT is produced in small quantities in the pineal gland in a rat study. It was speculated for a long time that this was the case, because all the chemical precursor of DMT are present in the human pineal, but this recent 2013 study detected DMT in rat pineal glands for the first time, and so it is quite likely that it is also made in the human pineal too. Not quite sure what the normal physiological effect of endogenous DMT might be.

Very interesting though that you had a temporary reduction in symptoms after a DMT session. This suggests to me that daily DMT micro-dosing may well be a viable method of treating ME/CFS symptoms.

 

[acrosstheveil]

hmm. i should definitely try that one day, if i can get over the fear of it. its always anticipatory anxiety though. i feel great when its over.

 

[justy]

I'm afraid my days of experimenting with psychedelics are long over. In fact I often wondered if those teenage years had somehow caused my ill health later on...

 

[Iquitos]

Yes, I would be very wary of taking a full DMT dose, even if I were healthy. It's not like LSD, where reality and your thoughts are distorted from the normal, and you may hallucinate, but basically you are still inhabiting the same reality; whereas with DMT I understand your consciousness leaves this world and is catapulted, in a disembodied state, into an entirely different universe. I read that many people when first taking DMT think that they have accidentally killed themselves, because this is what they assume when they have become a disembodied consciousness in some parallel reality unconnected to the physical world. I am totally fascinated by these DMT trip reports though.

It has recently been shown that DMT is produced in small quantities in the pineal gland in a rat study. It was speculated for a long time that this was the case, because all the chemical precursor of DMT are present in the human pineal, but this recent 2013 study detected DMT in rat pineal glands for the first time, and so it is quite likely that it is also made in the human pineal too. Not quite sure what the normal physiological effect of endogenous DMT might be.

Very interesting though that you had a temporary reduction in symptoms after a DMT session. This suggests to me that daily DMT micro-dosing may well be a viable method of treating ME/CFS symptoms.

i've taken iboga few times. only did a full flood dose once. it was one of the best experiences of my life. took all the doubt away from my spiritual beliefs. I felt emotionally better than I have ever felt in my life but did not help with the illness aspect.

i've been planning on starting a microdosing regimen for a few months now. but it does not mix well with any medications and i have been on a lot with all my crazy symptoms these days. I need a few weeks alone to be able to do this and that just hasn't happened yet.

i've also had a reduction in symptoms temporarily following smoked dmt. although, it is never permanent, and quite frankly, still scares the crap out of me even after many experiences with it. iboga, on the otherhand, was quite comforting.

also i hope this isn't against the rules. I've been banned from other forums for discussing alternative treatments such as this. even medical mmj...

From the research I've read on DMT it might be better if you could have a "coach" with you at the time, not do it alone. Just holding the hand of someone who seemed to be starting a "bad trip" was helpful, in that particular research and some participants were talked back to a more positive frame of mind. Very few had negative experiences and it seemed that those who did were the more religious persons, those taught to fear God.

Advocates of iboga, DMT and ayahuasca call it an entheogen, meaning it induces spiritual experiences. I was already in a good place spiritually so I didn't feel any changes there but some participants in my group ayahuasca experience feared being judged badly by "God" until they were reassured by coaches and other participants that "God" wouldn't be pissed off at the spiritual seeking of those using a "God-given" substance. Some felt that "evil spirits" were exorcised. "Evil spirits" are not part of my reality but they were part of that participants reality so I'm glad they got relief.

As for being banned for bringing up alternative treatments, that's not going to happen here. There are several threads on medical cannabis, for example.

 

[acrosstheveil]

that's why i like this forum. very open-minded people and free to talk about anything. i was banned from healingwell with no explanation given.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Iboga appears to reset the brain's tolerance of and addiction to a substance.

I wonder if this would help people withdrawing from SSRIs or benzos.

 

[Dufresne]

I wonder if this would help people withdrawing from SSRIs or benzos.

That is a really good idea. Benzo withdrawal seems to be able to mess you up worse than heroin. I've read accounts of post-acute withdrawal syndrome lasting years, and in some instances never fully resolving. Who knows what's really happening in these instances, but if I were in that situation I think I'd probably give Ibogaine a try.

Speaking of Ibogaine, wasn't Edmund Muskie taking this throughout the campaign of '72?

 

[Hip]

I wonder if this would help people withdrawing from SSRIs or benzos.

That is a very good question. Certainly when you micro-dose Iboga like I did (I took doses of 150 mg of the dried Iboga root bark), there are no problems at all. You don't go on any 10 hour psychedelic trip, as you do when you take the full Iboga dose (the full Iboga dose is around 3 to 6 grams of root bark); when micro-dosing I found there are no psychedelic effects at all.

I just did some Googling, and this article says that using Iboga for benzodiazepine withdrawal is dangerous, basically because both Iboga and the discontinuation of benzodiazepines lower the seizure threshold, so this could lead to seizures. To quote the article:

Ibogaine Side Effects And Benzodiazepine
Like benzo withdrawal, ibogaine also increases the risk of seizures. This is why combinations of tapering or disuse of benzodiazepine with ibogaine treatment is so dangerous.

Because of this risk, benzodiazepine dependent people need to stay at their current levels for the duration of their ibogaine treatment. Our medical director will control your benzo intake throughout your treatment to make sure you remain at low risk for seizures.

But the article says that it is safe to take Iboga with benzodiazepines provided that you keep taking the benzos. So it's possible that this might be a way to treat benzodiazepine withdrawal: keeping taking the benzos, take an Iboga trip, and then begin tapering off the benzodiazepines the next day or two after the trip. That might conceivably work to prevent the benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms.

One person in this thread said that they successfully treated their benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms with Iboga. However, just because this one person did not experience seizures, it does not mean that other people won't.

I shouldn't think seizure side effects would have the same level of risk when you do Iboga micro-dosing, however. In micro-dosing, you take several very low doses of Iboga over an extended period of many weeks, rather than have one full Iboga dose (and have the 10 hour intense psychedelic trip such full doses induce).

So Iboga micro-dosing might be a safe way to treat benzodiazepine withdrawal. There is a guide to Iboga root bark micro-dosing here. It says:

An iboga treatment provider told me that 500mg of root bark taken every four days works well as an anti-addiction treatment and antidepressant, and this can be taken in a '00' capsule for convenient dosing. Doses much lower than this will be effective, as the effects are cumulative. It is important to taste a tiny pinch of the root bark, so all your senses are able to experience the plant. It is important to set intent and state a positive affirmation on ingesting the root bark, and this is discussed below.

It interesting that Ibogaine may have antiviral effects against hepatitis C virus.

 

[Biarritz13]

@Hip, your posts are always full of interest!

I've never heard of Kambo but I heard of some benefits of bee venom therapy for RA, MS and Lyme.

I don't know if someone has ever posted here the story of "Ellie Lobel" who suffered from Lyme (Here is the story) and was cured with this therapy (accidentally).

Choosing one of the compounds of Kambo is a great idea but maybe there is a synergy here like the "totum" (french word) of a plant which is the synergy of the active subtances.

Anyway Hip, have you tried this again?

 

[barbc56]

recently read some forums posts (see here and here) made by an individual named Jox who used the Amazonian Indian medicine kambo to successfully treat his severe chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS). Jox was bedbound for often months at a time with the fatigue and malaise of ME/CFS, but astoundingly, within 2 weeks of taking kambo, he was back to near full health, and remains that way provided he takes kambo once a week

If something was able to cure us, it would certainly take longer than two weeks just to get your strength back.

Cocaine might have the same effect.

Barb

I reread the original post but didn't realize there are so many pages in this thread, so I may have repeated what others have said. Oops!

 

[Wayne]

I've never heard of Kambo but I heard of some benefits of bee venom therapy for RA, MS and Lyme.

Hi @Theodore,

I recently added nettles juice and tea as a daily staple in my diet, and have found it to be very beneficial. In my research on nettles, I discovered that the substance that gives it its sting is the same substance that is in bee venom that gives it its sting.

There are many nutrients in nettles that make it such a superfood, so I couldn't guess how much the "stingy" part of it might be helpful. Also, cooking destroys it, so that would take away any benefit from it if nettles is made into a tea or cooked as a vegetable. -- I blend up the dried leaves in water and strain, so I do get a raw version. I then use the remainder to make a hot tea.​

 

[Hip]

Choosing one of the compounds of Kambo is a great idea but maybe there is a synergy here like the "totum" (french word) of a plant which is the synergy of the active subtances.

Anyway Hip, have you tried this again?

I agree there may be some synergy, but I mainly decided to try just one of the compounds within kambo because I did not fancy making little burns of my skin in order to administer the kambo (this is the only safe mode of kambo administration), and I certainly did not fancy the extreme vomiting and diarrhea that kambo induces. However, if you don't mind things like this, then fine; kambo may be worth cautiously experimenting with.

Also, I wanted to biochemically explore what active principals within kambo might have caused the very significant improvements in ME/CFS that Jox reported immediately after taking kambo (and this was not a one-off improvement, because the improvements appeared each time Jox took kambo, and I believe he has taken it every week since 2012).

I think it is irresponsible not to follow up on a fellow ME/CFS patient's observations of significant improvements from some unusual treatment (provided the treatment appears safe); if you don't follow up, you may miss a very valuable remedy. Imagine if nobody had followed up on the improvements observed from rituximab, for example.


My hunch was that the dermorphin component of kambo plays the major role in creating the ME/CFS improvements Jox observed. Dermorphin is a potent mu-opioid receptor agonist, about 30 to 40 times more potent than morphine. This hunch was based on the fact that beta endorphin (a mu-opioid receptor agonist) has been shown to be low in ME/CFS; it was also based on the fact that low-dose naltrexone, which acts on mu-opioid receptors, can be beneficial for ME/CFS.

This hunch appeared to prove correct, as I noticed substantial symptomatic improvements to my ME/CFS after taking a single 100 microgram dose of dermorphin intranasally. So potentially, intranasal dermorphin could be a valuable and effective treatment for ME/CFS.

The reason I have not personally repeated my dermorphin experiments is because after several days of much improved ME/CFS symptoms from this single dermorphin dose, I then suffered one day of mild psychosis with severe emotional flatness, as a sort of finale to my several days of significant improvement, which was a very unpleasant final day. I detail all this in the first post of this thread.

However, I think this negative side effect of dermorphin I experienced will likely not appear in other ME/CFS patients. This is because the virus that triggered my ME/CFS also caused me to develop chronic anhedonia, emotional flatness and (in the past) some mild psychosis. So I am prone to these symptoms, and somehow dermorphin triggered them, albeit just for one day (there is a recognized condition of opioid-induced psychosis). But I imagine that other ME/CFS patients will be fine.

I am not suggesting that anyone else should try dermorphin, though. First of all, dosing is difficult, because you need a tiny amount: 100 micrograms (about the weight of a grain of sugar). If you get your dose calculation wrong, and you take more than say 1000 micrograms taken intranasally, it may kill you. You are dealing with opioids here: think heroin overdose. So this dose calculation is definitely not good to do when you have brain fog! I actually quadruple-checked my dose calculations before proceeding, as I was really concerned my brain fog would make me screw up.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Hi @Theodore,

I recently added nettles juice and tea as a daily staple in my diet, and have found it to be very beneficial. In my research on nettles, I discovered that the substance that gives it its sting is the same substance that is in bee venom that gives it its sting.

There are many nutrients in nettles that make it such a superfood, so I couldn't guess how much the "stingy" part of it might be helpful. Also, cooking destroys it, so that would take away any benefit from it if nettles is made into a tea or cooked as a vegetable. -- I blend up the dried leaves in water and strain, so I do get a raw version. I then use the remainder to make a hot tea.​

Fascinating. How is it you can drink raw nettle juice and not have your throat swell up from the stingy stuff? Serious question -- i'm really intrigued if there is some way to get this effect without killing bees to sting us.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

My hunch was that the dermorphin component of kambo plays the major role in creating the ME/CFS improvements Jox observed. Dermorphin is a potent mu-opioid receptor agonist, about 30 to 40 times more potent than morphine. This hunch was based on the fact that beta endorphin (a mu-opioid receptor agonist) has been shown to be low in ME/CFS; it was also based on the fact that low-dose naltrexone, which acts on mu-opioid receptors, can be beneficial for ME/CFS.
...

I am not suggesting that anyone else should try dermorphin, though. First of all, dosing is difficult, because you need a tiny amount: 100 micrograms (about the weight of a grain of sugar). If you get your dose calculation wrong, then as little as 1000 micrograms taken intranasally may kill you. You are dealing with opioids here: think heroin overdose. So this dose calculation is definitely not good to do when you have brain fog! I actually quadruple-checked my dose calculations before proceeding, as I was really concerned my brain fog would make me screw up.

I assume this is a controlled substance only avail via prescription, like LDN? If not how did you source it? Could you trust a compounding pharmacy to do the calculations and dosing for you, or would you prefer to do that yourself? Not all of us have the science or even basic math capability to get this right.

 

[Hip]

I assume this is a controlled substance only avail via prescription, like LDN?

Dermorphin is not a controlled substance; however, it is certainly not a licensed drug. Safety for human consumption has not been established. You can buy from a chemical supplier, but it cannot be bought as a medicinal compound.

It is worth noting though that quite a few ME/CFS patients have reported neurological symptom improvements after mu-opioid pain killers — see this thread. Intriguingly, as with dermorphin, the benefits appear not while the opioid drug is still in your body, but manifest as a sort of rebound effect once the drug has left your system.

 

[Wayne]

Fascinating. How is it you can drink raw nettle juice and not have your throat swell up from the stingy stuff? Serious question -- i'm really intrigued if there is some way to get this effect without killing bees to sting us.

Hi @Sparrowhawk,

Quite honestly, I don't know why not! I'm also really intrigued about this, and wonder if at least part of the reason I've done so well with nettles these past few weeks is from the "stingy" part of the plant--I need to find the correct name for it.

What works for me however, is to take a cup of loose leaf dried nettles, blend it at high speed in 1 1/2 quarts of water for 30-60 seconds, and then strain. It's the best herbal/plant adaptogen I've run across. As I mentioned earlier, after straining it, I pour another quart of water onto it, bring it to a boil, and drink it as a tea.

I'm getting ready to order 2 lb. of dried organic nettles leaf from Amazon for about $22 or so. Given how well it's helped me relieve exhaustion and deal with stress, I can't help but think this would be a good therapeutic drink for most pwME/CFS.​

 

[Biarritz13]

Hi @Theodore,

I recently added nettles juice and tea as a daily staple in my diet, and have found it to be very beneficial. In my research on nettles, I discovered that the substance that gives it its sting is the same substance that is in bee venom that gives it its sting.

There are many nutrients in nettles that make it such a superfood, so I couldn't guess how much the "stingy" part of it might be helpful. Also, cooking destroys it, so that would take away any benefit from it if nettles is made into a tea or cooked as a vegetable. -- I blend up the dried leaves in water and strain, so I do get a raw version. I then use the remainder to make a hot tea.​

Hi @Wayne

From what I could gathered,

The nettle main substances are : Acetylcholine, Histamine, Serotonin, Moroidin, Leukotrienes and Formic Acid.

The bee sting main substances are : Melittin, Apamin, Pholspholipase A, Alarm Pheromones, Hyalluronidase, MCD Peptide, Histamine, Serotonin, Dopamine, Noradrenaline and Formic Acid.


Nettle and bee venom share Formic Acid, Serotonin and Histamine. It may be this Formic Acid that gave you some benefits, what kind of benefits by the way?

But if we take the example of the Kambo, the bee venom acts also on the opioid production but not as directly as the Kambo does.

@Hip

Maybe I am mixing everything but could it be possible that the Alpha Toxin of the Staph vaccine had an opioid action ?

 

[maryb]

@Wayne
so how do you take the raw leaf? or do you just drink the tea?

 

[wintersky]

Thanks for sharing us an interesting story, Hip.

In TCM, the closest online reference i can find is to toad venom called "Chan Su", though im sure that there are further better references to frog venom lying somewhere in some obscure Chinese medical text. In TCM, quite alot toxic/poisonous items contain the very best healing effects (aconitie, leech etc etc)but are rarely used due to

1. Toxicity
2. Or used only in very extreme cases
3. Or when used ONLY in low dosage OR in combination with other herbs to reduce their toxic effects
4. Or not used not used at all due to legal prohibition depending on the country.

When toxic items are being used, sometimes (according to situation), it is combined with sweat/perspiration inducing herbs to reduce toxicity. All that being said however, i am quite concerned about the opiate (side effects including addiction) as not many TCM doctors will be willing to use it.

CONTRAINDICATIONS

• Contraindicated during pregnancy, breastfeeding or nursing.
• Use with caution internally.
• Keep out of eyes (antidote - Rx. Arnebiae seu Lithospermi Zi Cao).
• Toxic signs: malaise, unrest, nausea, numbness of the mouth, lips, and extremities, dizziness and chest discomfort.
• Do not use excessively with diaphoretics herbs to disperse toxicity

http://www.americandragon.com/Individualherbsupdate/ChanSu.html

As an example of what toad venom have been used for in TCM, look at the Actions and Indications on this page:
http://www.americandragon.com/Individualherbsupdate/ChanSu.html
http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/chan-su

Wintersky