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Free Copper Calculation

Messages
94
Hi all,

Does my calculation of free copper below look accurate to anyone?

Copper Calculations:
Ceruloplasmin: 14,000
Copper Serum: 75
Zinc: 54
1. Calculate the Copper:Zinc ratio. Reference range is 0.7 to 1.0. This is a ratio, not ug/dL: 75/54 = 1.38
2. Calculate the amount of Copper bound in Ceruloplasmin: 14,000 x 0.003 = 42
3. Calculate the amount of Copper not bound in Ceruloplasmin. Reference range is 5 to 15ug/dL: 75 - 42 = 33 ug/dL
4. Calculate the percentage of Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper. Reference range is 5% to 20%: 33 / 75 x 100 = 44%

@alicec @Thewonders92
 
Messages
94
Thanks for the response. Obviously that high of a percentage would be indicative of needing to take action, correct?
 

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
Tigger,

If you use units throughout, and reference the numbers that are not test results (e.g., where did the 0.003 come from?) others of this forum might be better able to understand what you're doing, and therefore whether the numbers look OK. I find that doing so points out my mistakes to myself before showing them to anyone.

I have not heard of any assessment of copper being accurate/reliable enough to warrant corrective action. When I did my research a few years ago, the state of the art was not there yet. So, not having seen what's changed since 2014, it's not obvious to me that the results indicate taking action. Is the risk of trying to correct it without professional guidance is worth it? It wasn't then. But of course, you decide for yourself.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
If you use units throughout, and reference the numbers that are not test results (e.g., where did the 0.003 come from?) others of this forum might be better able to understand what you're doing, and therefore whether the numbers look OK.

Does anyone have a reference where this 3% Copper bound to Ceruloplasmin comes from?

I have not heard of any assessment of copper being accurate/reliable enough to warrant corrective action. .. Is the risk of trying to correct it without professional guidance is worth it?

Would say, depends. Had tested serum and whole blood copper and zinc for years only, but no professional guidance available. And I could correct it somewhat by comparing these labs and effects from different amounts supplemented.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
Zinc has mostly been at the lowest end of normal. Copper in the higher half of normal. So I increased zinc gradually, till I got headache from about 60 mg/d. Therefore increased Copper a bit to about 2 mg/d, which immediately eased the headache. However, after some time that way, serum copper shoot above normal and zinc below. Lowering copper to below 1 mg/d corrected it again. Zinc still at lowest end of normal, copper above the middle. Whole blood test reflected these serum results. Want to add that I also get about 13 mg/d zinc and 4.2 mg/d of copper from diet alone.
 
Messages
94
Sorry for forgetting the units. I was being lazy and copy and pasted from a document I had saved. Here's a much clearer post.

Here's the link where I found the instructions to theoretically calculate free copper: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/pyroluria-treatment-advice.34150/

Test Results:
Component
Ceruloplasmin

Standard Range
15-52 mg/dL

Your Value
14
---------------------
Component
Copper

Standard Range
0.75 - 1.45 mcg/mL

Your Value
0.75
---------------------
Component
Zinc

Standard Range
0.66 - 1.10 mcg/mL

Your Value

0.54

Calculations you can do following blood tests for Serum or Plasma Zinc, Copper and Ceruloplasmin.

First, we need to get the three measurements into the same units, preferably ug/dL (micrograms per decilitre):

If your results were given in g/L multiply by 100,000 to get ug/dL.

If your results were given in mg/dL, multiply by 1,000 to get ug/dL.

If your results were given in mg/L multiply by 100 to get ug/dL.

If your results were given in ug/L, divide by 10 to get ug/dL.

If your results were given in ng/mL, divide by 10 to get ug/dL.


1) Zinc

If your results were given in umol/L, divide by 0.153 to get ug/dL
...54

2) Copper

If your results were given in umol/L, divide by 0.157 to get ug/dL
...75

3) Ceruloplasmin

Results are usually given in mg/dL or g/L. Convert to ug/dL as above notes.
...14,000

Now calculate the ratios, etc.


4) Calculate the Copper:Zinc ratio, divide Copper (2) by Zinc (1),

Reference range is 0.7 to 1.0. (This is a ratio, not ug/dL.)
75 / 54 = 1.39

5) Calculate the amount of Copper bound in Ceruloplasmin,

Ceruloplasmin (3) in ug/dL multiplied by 0.003. (Ceruloplasmin is 0.3% Copper by weight)

14,000 x 0.003 = 42

6) Calculate the amount of Copper not bound in Ceruloplasmin,

Total Copper (2) in ug/dL minus Copper bound to Ceruloplasmin (5).

Reference range is 5 to 15ug/dL
75 - 42 = 33

7) Calculate the percentage of Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper:

Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper (6) divided by total Copper (2), then multiplied by 100.

Reference range is 5% to 20%.

33 / 75 x 100 = 44%
Any confirmation on whether or not these calculations are accurate or not would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

@Sherpa @ahmo @pamojja @Critterina
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
Thanks for typing it out. Just got my first Ceruloplasmin result at 27 mg/dl (15-30 range). Let's give this formula a try. Cu came back at 120 µg/dl (65 - 165), Zinc at 70 µg/dl (73-127).

4) Calculate the Copper:Zinc ratio, divide Copper (2) by Zinc (1),

Reference range is 0.7 to 1.0. (This is a ratio, not ug/dL.)
75 / 54 = 1.39

120 / 70 = 1,71

5) Calculate the amount of Copper bound in Ceruloplasmin,

Ceruloplasmin (3) in ug/dL multiplied by 0.003. (Ceruloplasmin is 0.3% Copper by weight)

14,000 x 0.003 = 42

27,000 x 0.003 = 81

6) Calculate the amount of Copper not bound in Ceruloplasmin,

Total Copper (2) in ug/dL minus Copper bound to Ceruloplasmin (5).

Reference range is 5 to 15ug/dL
75 - 42 = 33

120 - 81 = 39

7) Calculate the percentage of Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper:

Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper (6) divided by total Copper (2), then multiplied by 100.

Reference range is 5% to 20%.

33 / 75 x 100 = 44%

39 / 120 x 100 = 32%

Now I know as much as before having a ceruloplasmin test: my copper to zinc ratio is still completely off. :bang-head:

From that other thread:

7. If your Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper (NCC or sometimes called Unbound or “Free” Copper) level was high, above the reference range of 5 to 15ug/dL or 5 to 20% of total Copper, the Zinc supplement will help to gradually reduce that “free” Copper. Some practitioners like to add some other mineral and vitamin supplements to help remove the excess Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper safely from your body. Be patient; if your Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper level was high or very high, it will take a long time to safely remove it from your body. For those with a very high level of Non-Ceruloplasmin-Bound Copper, it could take twelve months or more to safely get that Copper down to normal levels. Please be patient.

Oh well. During the last 9 years got in average 13mg/d Zinc from diet and 45 mg/d from supplements. This year leading up to my first ceruloplasmin test 63 mg/d of Zinc from supplements alone.

Maybe it's time to say goodby to my beloved above 80% cocoa chocolates. :(


PS: though my off Cu/Zn ratio of 1.7 has been much worse at 3.1.
 
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Messages
94
Wow. Fairly disheartening. Do you know of anyone who has had success with balancing Cu/Zn ratios? It seems most of what I read are stories of extreme struggle without much success.
 

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
apparently mainstream medicine recognises that zinc will not remove copper from the liver... this is based on what i read about treatment guidelines for Wilson's disease.
l suspect a copper toxicity and possibly deficiency problem.

I feel better on a lot of zinc...but I think it's nonsense that zinc supplementation will sort out a problem if there is one. I think we need a copper chelator.

Apparently Judy Mikovits just said at a presentation in London that our copper transporters are blocked. that's all i know about that... dont' ask me for specifics.

I got a massive copper fecal metals test pull once after a biofilm protocol.

I see a Walsh trained doctor and she hasn't been able to help much, so you know, good luck with that.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
I think we need a copper chelator.
http://www.acu-cell.com/ses.html
Copper - like calcium - becomes bio-unavailable at excessive storage
levels, and as such may trigger similar medical conditions at high levels
as it does at low levels, whereby a number of co-factors are required
to help with its metabolism.

Sulfur, Vitamin C, chromium and molybdenum are all co-factors, which
help normalize copper levels, and/or increase its bioavailability, and
consequently help with related physical problems such as spinal / joint
and vascular degeneration, or mental / emotional problems such as
moodiness, "foggy" mind, memory problems, confusion, or ADD / ADHD
http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
Copper shares many attributes with calcium, whereby both can become bio-unavailable at high levels and
result in symptoms of deficiency!Some practitioners, being unaware of the underlying copper excess, and
lacking the resources to test intracellular levels of copper, get temporary results by having a patient supple-
ment more copper. Despite the initial improvement, this can have disastrous long-term effects on a patient's
physical and mental health.

The correct approach consists of making copper (or calcium) more bioavailable by supplementing the proper
co-factors, with the best choice being those whose levels are lowest ratio-wise to copper - and as mentioned
above - may include Vitamin C, chromium, sulfur (MSM), molybdenum, nickel, or (rarely) zinc. The avoidance
of foods high in copper is important as well.

This will take care of the medical conditions a practitioner was originally consulted for, and at the same time
prevents the potential development of new medical problems elsewhere related to excessive copper intake.
Chromium has to be considered first when trying to normalize copper, since it is its associated trace element.
Many aches and pains, arthritis, slow-healing fractures, sciatica and other back problems, various infections,
etc, can be relieved with chelated chromium (not GTF chromium), provided:
a) they conform to the left side-specific receptor requirements,
b) calcium and magnesium are close to
normal, since they are also involved with various disorders of the musculoskeletal system, and c) potassium
levels are not below normal, since chromium is a potent potassium antagonist.

Following a close second is Sulfur, usually supplemented in the form of MSM, whose main action in addition
to helping restore cartilage formation is the lowering of copper! So again, it is the high copper levels which
created a need for sulfur to help reverse joint degeneration. Originally, glucosamine sulfate (another copper-
lowering sulfur compound) had been the non-drug treatment of choice for joint problems, however its blood
sugar raising potential has considerably reduced its popularity in individuals with blood sugar disturbances
(e.g. diabetes), so MSM has become the preferred choice instead.
Copper works synergistically with potassium and calcium, so when patients ....
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,380
Location
Austria
Wow. Fairly disheartening.

Half that bad. It's only a lab marker, which at least has already improved (form a 3.1 to 1.7 ratio). Beside that, no obviously felt bad effects. On the contrary, my all-out war against PAD, COPD and T2D since 9 years has been highly successful. 'Only' ME/CFS remaining, and even here the main debilitating symptom of prolonged PEM after exertion, I learned to avoid most of the time. (Well, for that having to quit a part-time job.. my real problem at the moment is rather financial)

I see a Walsh trained doctor and she hasn't been able to help much, so you know, good luck with that.

Never to give up seems written in my DNA. It takes time.
 
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