For POTS or for digestion: Instead of Parasym Plus, increase acetylcholine at low cost & naturally

sb4

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@charlie1 I started transdermal twice a day however this made me have breathing problems and racing heart. I have since moved to one dose at id guess 200mg in the morning. Jury is still out however I took less yesterday and my paresis was worse so it could be doing something. Don't want to increase dose too high due to symptoms...

I have recently been trying my own way to lower my stress response via mental techniques. Basically whenever I feel my pots reacting strong (heart racing) I focus on relaxing my body and mind, whenever I catch my mind wandering unnecessarly I stop it.

I figure this should get my body in more of a parasympathetic state when stress is high. Is this the kind of stuff you did to help with your pots?
 

charlie1

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@sb4
I have recently been trying my own way to lower my stress response via mental techniques. Basically whenever I feel my pots reacting strong (heart racing) I focus on relaxing my body and mind, whenever I catch my mind wandering unnecessarly I stop it.
I figure this should get my body in more of a parasympathetic state when stress is high. Is this the kind of stuff you did to help with your pots?
Hi there :)
Not exactly although yes, it was through mental technique. Not that I think your method can't be helpful but to answer your question, the DNRS training was more specific ie. we would think of a happy memory and relive it as in the now. But absolutely we had to add in emotion. About 20 min of focusing on your personal mental video clip 2 -3 x day in a quiet room. It's especially helpful to do this at 1st sign of you 'issue' ( POTS, dysautonomia/PEM ) so that your brain starts associating 'good thoughts' with the trigger instead of the usual negative thoughts .. so that the new pathway is used more often than the negative pathway. The more a pathway is used, the stronger it gets.
A significant factor regarding neuroplacticity is that it isn't just about positive thinking or relaxing. Positive emotion must be added at the same time to the positive imaginings and you must see this screen play in the present, not the past or future. ...in order to create the new positive neuro-pathway.

Jury is still out however I took less yesterday and my paresis was worse so it could be doing something
by paresis, are you talking gastroparesis? Were you hoping the A-GPC would help with digestive issues (as is my hope) or the A-GPC for other type symptoms like brain fog etc.?

 
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Lolinda

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my paresis was worse
If you mean gastroparesis, then did you take the transdermal choline before a protein meal? This gives you tryptophan -> serotonine. You need both serotonine and acetylcholine for good motility. They antagonise each other. Get too much of choline and eat little tryptophan and you end up with even worse motility then without any treatment.

Addtionally, it can be the solution to go even lower in the beginning. I had to start very low, lower than your 200mg (see the long post with all the details on starting dose and slow increments later)

wish you a lot of success!
 

charlie1

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@Lolinda -
I had to start very low, lower than your 200mg
A health store just got back to me and said they can get me Alpha -GPC from Douglas Labs Pharmaceutical (I like their stuff :)) for $60.00 Can...60 capsules of 250mg each. I will re-read your detailed post on what dosage to start with...transdermal
You need both serotonine and acetylcholine for good motility. They antagonise each other.
I believe you (cuz this is over my head!) but guess I don't understand this statement. If they antagonise each other, wouldn't that mean they block each others action....therefore no gain but also no damage. I would think it means they shouldn't be taken together?? But what do i know??!! I better get the 5-HTP as well for the serotonine component.

At this point, my number 1 concern is better bowel motility AND stopping the GERD. Sleeping upright is hard on my back! Hoping taking the 2 supplements will make a difference.
 

Lolinda

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I would think it means they shouldn't be taken together??
I see your logic, but that applies to vitamins and minerals where the goal is to simply get much into the body stores.

Its not rocket engineering. To put it simple: There are two cases:
a) For example, many minerals antagonize each other in the sense that they compete for the same uptake pathway. Copper and zink are two well-known examples. Here your logic applies: dont take them together, because less is taken up, more is wasted.
b) tryptophan and choline have an immediate effect on the production of neurotransmitters. (one can feel this in various ways such as motility from both, or calm peaceful state of mind from choline, etc etc. These effects come in minutes and hours.). Here a different logic applies: you want them to be in balance immediately, otherwise you get bad efffects. So take them together.

Having said that, I did not tolerate 5htp, so I take the choline before eating meat (-> tryptophan). Most people seem to go well with 5htp. Hope you will, too!
 
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charlie1

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Thanks for the explanation. Makes more sense now :)
I looked at the i-Herb site. The Jarrow @ $23.00 (200mg) is a smarter choice than going through my health store for same number of 300 mg. capsules @ $58.00 !

I'll have to decrease my motility drug first so I'll probably get started late next week and will let you know how I do!
 

charlie1

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oh, one more thing @Lolinda -
Regarding the 0-30 min before meals, I did not experiment with other times. At the beginning when I started choline transdermally, I clearly noticed the effect coming. It came fast. So I know that it resorbs fast. I want the choline to arrive with the tryptophan from food.
I understand you didn't experiment with other times, but assuming I'll be adding 5-HTP at the same time as the choline, there shouldn't be a need to do this before a protein meal, correct? I could do this first thing in the morning?

Now, on my current optimum dosage (1x150mg/day), I have the following. All these effects are mild, nothing big: more relaxed, better digestion, better gastric emptying, heart pumping more forcefully in a pleasant way, improved blood flow (I have poor intestinal blood flow, I can tell from symptoms that it improved), my too low nightly blood pressure improved as measured by 24h BP, more energy, less chills and less feeling cold.
Still clear sailing for you?? I hope so!
 

Lolinda

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I'll be adding 5-HTP at the same time as the choline, there shouldn't be a need to do this before a protein meal, correct? I could do this first thing in the morning?
seems to make sense. But if you read the thread from the bginning, you will see all my surprises, my failures. In the beginning, I believed for example that it would be a good idea to get the choline from food. Natural is better, isnt it? Nope. I have SIBO and 60% of choline ingested is eaten up by the bugs. Maybe more in me.
-> So what I want to say is that this is all quite uncharted territory. Honestly, failures are just part of the process. So... I learned to be careful and patient and start always ridiculously low, and if failed, take a break and come up with a modification...
-> Hope still that you succeed immediately!!

Still clear sailing for you?? I hope so!
- More than that: Slowly slowly, over many weeks, I could increase the agp-choline dosage to 450mg. This "heavenly peace"-feeling got stronger. If I have some challenges such as a diffcult stressful situation or a meeting with a doctor where I need to focus, I master it with that peace and ease in me... :) So so happy about this :) :) I could get so far only half that much by using all meditation tricks possible...
- And did I already post this: my bifascicular block is gone! This is a benign heart electric conduction issue. It was there before the agp-choline. It is measured now again by ECG. Gone. Zero. I did not invest the time to understand the physiology. All I know is that choline is damn important for the heart in multiple ways (for example it is a building block for the mitochondrial membrane. maybe this means more energy -> more electricity? whatever!) . Though I am a researcher, I really dont need to research everything :) :) just so happy it is gone. It means quite a few years longer life, which I so so much need to do all the nice things I want to do in life :) :) :)
 
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sb4

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@sb4
A significant factor regarding neuroplacticity is that it isn't just about positive thinking or relaxing. Positive emotion must be added at the same time to the positive imaginings and you must see this screen play in the present, not the past or future. ...in order to create the new positive neuro-pathway.
Thanks, I will try to add this element as well. I was previously focusing on relaxing body and mind and also the good feeling it brings regardless of pain and discomfort.

by paresis, are you talking gastroparesis? Were you hoping the A-GPC would help with digestive issues (as is my hope) or the A-GPC for other type symptoms like brain fog etc.?
Yes, I was hoping it would ease the familiar heaviness in stomach after ever meal. I am still unsure how much it is working if at all... I will continue experimenting.
 

charlie1

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Does anyone know the optimal amount of A-GPC to help with bowel motility? I've taken 200 mg transdermally with a protein meal...no difference. Not worse, not better...nothing. I'd like to up the doseage and will be taking by mouth but would like to know the safe limit (for constipation only)
I'm up to 750 mg. Magnesium Oxide with off and on again results. Seems best when I also use the PEG. I may have to stick with that combo ...Most days that works for me although I don't like it (polyethylene glycol) for possible future negative health affects.
 

Lolinda

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In me, the choline helped against poor gastric and small intestinal motility (food staying in the stomach and then emptying at night, giving me poor or no sleep like a person who has eaten far too much before going to bed...). But I do not know if it helps against any colonic motility issues, that is, constipation. Neurotransmitter-wise constipation is about low gaba or high NO or low serotnin. I do not know, if acetylcholine is involved or not in motility of the colon. If you find publications on google scholar, pls post, many people will want to learn about this.
What I do know:
Constipation is about low potassium , gram-negative bugs , neuropathy or loss of glial cells. Then, one needs to differentiate between different forms of constipation. Did you get tested if transit is slow? Or do you have outlet constipation? The latter can be simply a bad habit of how to use the muscles.

I just posted these from old note I have taken long times ago when I did have the problem. Today I do not. Practically, what I recall what helped: Lots of veggies. I do tolerate raw veggies best, but not everyone does. And, if I happen to need to go to the toilet, dont postpone it for doing something else first. Go asap. This has to do sthg with habit. And, squat. There are fancy things such as squatty potty you can buy, Or one can simply squat beneath the toilet and when it comes, then sit up quickly on it. :) Running has a great effect and sometimes an immediate effect some 10 min later increasing likelyhood of a bowel movement. Then, there is the herb absynth (artemisia), the leaves of which are incredibly bitter (I love it!! :) ) and it has a similar effect to running.

In me, carbs cause constipation. I would probably test high on a methane breath test. I eat low carb, so I dont have constipation.

Back to the choline: I simply increased the dosage slowly up and down till I found the optimum. This is very different in people, some need a total intake of 500mg of choline per day, some 800 (food + supplements).

Wish you good success :)
 
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charlie1

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Hi. I guess we're opposite! I could be that some of my motility issues are due to Ehlers Danlos Sydnrome as many people with that have Constipation
I do not know, if acetylcholine is involved or not in motility of the colon.
. When I was prescribed Mestinon, I was warned it might cause diarrhea which I assume was a acetylchonie related issue. In my case Mestinon helped the POTS but didn't give me the (desired) bowel side affect.

I eat low carb, so I dont have constipation.
I am quite certain that things have worsened since cutting out carbs. Definitely C was at its worst when I went gluten free as well.
Lately I've seen some improvement since again introducing carbs, some gluten, and PEG (for C) with Magnesium. Always have been big on fruits and vegees.

I'll start with a 300 mg pill (by mouth) after dinner (highest protein meal) and decide how to proceed from there.

Thanks for the information!
 
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I am thrilled to have found this thread. I started taking choline bitartrate 550 mg daily as I developed cholestasis (liver bile backup) during pregnancy and that is when my fatigue, brain fog, and anxiety started. I found research linking everything I was experiencing with choline deficiency and started it up along with Seeking Health Prenatals with methylfolate. My anxiety completely disappeared with the choline and mood lifted along with digestive improvements but now I'm experiencing worsening brain fog (to the point where it was difficult to read this thread) and very need dizziness and lightheadedmess. I came across Dr Driscoll's research and she touched on a lot of things I'm experiencing but I cannot afford her supplements and in studying up on her I decided to search for info on her on this site as I've been reading the forums here for years.

So I guess I'm wondering have any of you experienced severe lightheadedness or dizziness on choline? I'm not sure if it's caused by this or the methylfolate but I'm terrified of stopping because I'm scared the horrible anxiety will come back.. but im so lightheaded I'm scared to even drive and I've been this way for a week. I'm going to switch to alpha gcp as mentioned on here but would really really appreciate anyone's input because this is really scaring me and my doctor has been no help.

Thank you so so much.
 

sb4

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I am thrilled to have found this thread. I started taking choline bitartrate 550 mg daily as I developed cholestasis (liver bile backup) during pregnancy and that is when my fatigue, brain fog, and anxiety started. I found research linking everything I was experiencing with choline deficiency and started it up along with Seeking Health Prenatals with methylfolate. My anxiety completely disappeared with the choline and mood lifted along with digestive improvements but now I'm experiencing worsening brain fog (to the point where it was difficult to read this thread) and very need dizziness and lightheadedmess. I came across Dr Driscoll's research and she touched on a lot of things I'm experiencing but I cannot afford her supplements and in studying up on her I decided to search for info on her on this site as I've been reading the forums here for years.

So I guess I'm wondering have any of you experienced severe lightheadedness or dizziness on choline? I'm not sure if it's caused by this or the methylfolate but I'm terrified of stopping because I'm scared the horrible anxiety will come back.. but im so lightheaded I'm scared to even drive and I've been this way for a week. I'm going to switch to alpha gcp as mentioned on here but would really really appreciate anyone's input because this is really scaring me and my doctor has been no help.

Thank you so so much.
I know this sounds obvious but have you tried lowering the dose?
 
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Yeah I cut the 550 in half and tried taking half the dosage but it didn't seem to change anything. I'm going to try ordering the other form and doing it transdermally but wasn't sure if the lightheaded and dizziness is even a symptom anyone else has experienced before i begin messing with it.
 
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That's what I figured..I have been so extremely lightheaded with brain fog too while taking the prenatal with methylfolate plus the 550 mg choline bitartrate so I cut out both a day then only took 150 mg choline and am having bizarre symptoms. I'm extremely lightheaded, cannot think clearly hardly at all, and my brain feels like it's tingling so strongly it's scaring me. I've never experienced anything like this. I know choline is a methyl donor so I don't know if that's playing into it or not or if the methylfolate can be doing this to me 48 hours later but I feel worse than being drunk and just have no clue what to do.
 

Eastman

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... When I took it before salad meals (no tryptophane to produce serotonine) It didn't improve but inhibited upper gut motility (that "wonderful" stone-in-the-stomach feeling). Good motility needs serotonine and acetylcholine.
Someone I know who is taking Alpha GPC also seems to have gotten this stone-in-the-stomach feeling. It was immediately after lunch where she had also taken 300 mg of Alpha GPC orally.

She had also taken 450 mg transdermally earlier in the morning.

Both breakfast and lunch had significant amounts of protein.

How long after the salad meal did it take for you to get the stone-in-the-stomach feeling?