For POTS or for digestion: Instead of Parasym Plus, increase acetylcholine at low cost & naturally

[cman89]

That makes sense. I highly suspect, like many of us here, that beyond whatever genes I have that made me susceptible, that poor digestion, bad nutrient absorption, and perhaps microbiome disturbance set me up to be nutritionally deficient. This is why I think taking B vitamins in larger doses plus using different delivery methods has helped the way it has. Of course, this would not have mattered much without a stressor, but I remember in 2014 how much better I felt after my life stress event once I started supplementing with the vitamins. The one thing I haven't done is much testing, so this is still speculative for me, but I have seen results. Unfortunately, I am recovering from food poisoning I acquired in India, and now have some other symptoms to deal with. Ugh...

 

[cman89]

I like your question!

I have two answers:

One one hand, I did not really narrow in. I just tried everything under the sun, one-by one. (And I did not mention in my post on how I got out of ME everything that helped me in some ways, but only the most important things most closely related to ME). I knew that multivitamins are bad for me. So I tried individual vitamins to have a chance to tell the good from the bad. The essential discovery was that transdermal vitamins and minerals and even amino acids resorb as well as oral. Some very fast, others slower. Here you find my experiences.
This was the essential discovery. Before that I would have failed all of them because Ihave SIBO and gut bugs love isolated nutrients and they fiest before I do. Here is all I tried:

• I take them now, with success: borage oil, K2, Calcium, Chromium, B5, Mg-Cl. - I did not modify intake of these during the introduction of agp-choline, so I know that the new effects I perceive are really from the choline.
• Failed transdermally: B6, B3 (because of neuropathy), B2 (increased potassium loss)
• No effect noticed, hence dropped after a week: Manganese and Biotin

On the other hand, I do a slight preselection of things, so that vitamins, minerals or amino acids with some vague chance of doing good are tried first. In the case of choline, it was info I found here on PR on a product Parasym Plus. It boosts the parasymp. nervous system. I do have digestive issues and I do ( or rather did! ) have excessive sympathetic activation (some vague restlessness which is not psychological stress). If you read this thread from the beginning, you find in the very first posts information what parasym plus does. In particular I recommend the link to the patent on Parasym Plus. So that was it what sounded exactly like "This is what I want for me!!". In sum, my hopes got fulfilled.

Do you mind if I ask what sort of onset your ME had? Was it acute or somewhat delayed?

 

[sb4]

Here is my experience with parasym plus.

I suspect I have hyperandrogenic POTS. (Gastroparesis, dry mouth, high heart rate, etc)

Taking lower doses like the 2-3 recomended I don't really notice anything. Taking higher doses like 5-10 capsules in the morning I don't feel anything until about 5hrs later where I start to feel okay, palpitations are noticably reduced and my head feels clearer and more relaxed, then at about the 7hr mark I start having trouble breathing properly, my heart starts pounding again but in a different way before and this can be really bad and last for 6hrs+.

I ran out of pills before seeing if I could find the right dose.

As a guess I would say that the cholinesterase inhibitor was causing the bad symptoms later on (and they could get REALLY bad) however I am confused as to why it would take so long to kick in... any thoughts?

 

[Lolinda]

Hi guys! Sorry for being absent for so long!!

Do you mind if I ask what sort of onset your ME had? Was it acute or somewhat delayed?

Both. It was a complicated and multifacetted process. Many years ago, I had some small seemingly irrelevant flu-like infection. After that a very slow progressive decrease in health started. First, I had to lay down for a minute after lunch. This then increased and increased over the years till it became massive fatigue and hours of time loss. Adding to that: brain fog, more and more back pain, intolerance of any meat, etc etc. Then I tried to help myself in variousest ways, some more and some less successful. I also tried probiotics and killing intestinal bugs. This then catapulted me into a full-blown ME acutely.
- this is the super short version

As a guess I would say that the cholinesterase inhibitor was causing the bad symptoms later on (and they could get REALLY bad) however I am confused as to why it would take so long to kick in... any thoughts?

I never tried parasym plus, so to say it cleary, I cannot give any answer based on own experience. But the dangerousthing in parasym plus is, as you mention it, the cholinesterase inhibitor. What I did, before even thinking of taking anything like that: measure my levels of cholinesterase. It is a simple blood test any better lab can do. My cholinesterase was at the lower normal limit. With that in mind , it looked to me very implausible that I could be a candidate for profiting from a cholinesterase inhibitor. Also Iread all the many reports on cholinesterase inhibition or parasym plus on PR. Such as this one:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/acetylcholine-caused-crash.43104/
So, so many people talking about damage and damage and damage!
--> While I cannot ynswer your question as to why the effect takes so long, I wonder why you take it at all? Why dont you try this: try the components individually, starting with the harmless ones, testing each for a few days before adding in the next. One could make a doctoral thesis about pharmacology of parasym plus.... testing the components individually delivers practical benefit in a simple way: more often than not, testing ingresients individually shows which is the ingredient that brings the positive effect and which one is the bad. I use this with all things: All vitamins, all minerals, everything. I am extremely sensitive, all multivitamins would case situations as you describe : some benefit, much harm. Trying them individually singled out a few things with benefit that really was unbelievable: resolving longstanding hopeless issues.

Essentially, what I do is:
- take everything transdermally to avoid feeding bad bugs.they love individual nutrients. choline is eaten to 60% by intestinal bacteria !! (see earlier posts on this thread for a reference)
- if there is an rdv for the substance, try some 50% rdv first and then slowly titrate upwards or downwards from there
- only one experiment at a time
- spend the time needed to read papers on google scholar and posts here on PR so I know what type of chynges to look for in what time frame. While this costs time, it is well-invested time.

 

[cman89]

Hi guys! Sorry for being absent for so long!!



Both. It was a complicated and multifacetted process. Many years ago, I had some small seemingly irrelevant flu-like infection. After that a very slow progressive decrease in health started. First, I had to lay down for a minute after lunch. This then increased and increased over the years till it became massive fatigue and hours of time loss. Adding to that: brain fog, more and more back pain, intolerance of any meat, etc etc. Then I tried to help myself in variousest ways, some more and some less successful. I also tried probiotics and killing intestinal bugs. This then catapulted me into a full-blown ME acutely.
- this is the super short version



I never tried parasym plus, so to say it cleary, I cannot give any answer based on own experience. But the dangerousthing in parasym plus is, as you mention it, the cholinesterase inhibitor. What I did, before even thinking of taking anything like that: measure my levels of cholinesterase. It is a simple blood test any better lab can do. My cholinesterase was at the lower normal limit. With that in mind , it looked to me very implausible that I could be a candidate for profiting from a cholinesterase inhibitor. Also Iread all the many reports on cholinesterase inhibition or parasym plus on PR. Such as this one:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/acetylcholine-caused-crash.43104/
So, so many people talking about damage and damage and damage!
--> While I cannot ynswer your question as to why the effect takes so long, I wonder why you take it at all? Why dont you try this: try the components individually, starting with the harmless ones, testing each for a few days before adding in the next. One could make a doctoral thesis about pharmacology of parasym plus.... testing the components individually delivers practical benefit in a simple way: more often than not, testing ingresients individually shows which is the ingredient that brings the positive effect and which one is the bad. I use this with all things: All vitamins, all minerals, everything. I am extremely sensitive, all multivitamins would case situations as you describe : some benefit, much harm. Trying them individually singled out a few things with benefit that really was unbelievable: resolving longstanding hopeless issues.

Essentially, what I do is:
- take everything transdermally to avoid feeding bad bugs.they love individual nutrients. choline is eaten to 60% by intestinal bacteria !! (see earlier posts on this thread for a reference)
- if there is an rdv for the substance, try some 50% rdv first and then slowly titrate upwards or downwards from there
- only one experiment at a time
- spend the time needed to read papers on google scholar and posts here on PR so I know what type of chynges to look for in what time frame. While this costs time, it is well-invested time.

I understand most of what you are describing, however, I am not sure how to interpret the issue with Parasym Plus causing potential issues, but transdermal choline is tolerable. Is it that one has Acetylcholinesterase inhibition properties while the other simply increases dietary choline?

 

[sb4]

Essentially, what I do is:
- take everything transdermally to avoid feeding bad bugs.they love individual nutrients. choline is eaten to 60% by intestinal bacteria !! (see earlier posts on this thread for a reference)
- if there is an rdv for the substance, try some 50% rdv first and then slowly titrate upwards or downwards from there
- only one experiment at a time
- spend the time needed to read papers on google scholar and posts here on PR so I know what type of chynges to look for in what time frame. While this costs time, it is well-invested time.

Yes this is my plan, starting with alpha GPC transdermally, hopefully this will cause the reaction to be more sudden. I will go low and slow. I am still bad from when I took 5 parasymth plus on sunday.

 

[charlie1]

Hello. I"m new to this thread after being off of PR for quite awhile. Fortunately most of my POTS/dysautonomia symptoms have been resolved this past year, other than the chronic constipation which according to Dr. Diana, may likely be due to the lax ligaments/ GI tissues due to my hypermobility. I originally thought I'd try some Parasym Plus to aid with chronic constipation but after reading a few PR threads on it, I'm now wondering if I should just try Alpha GPC.
@Lolinda

Now, on my current optimum dosage (1x150mg/day), I have the following. All these effects are mild, nothing big: more relaxed, better digestion, better gastric emptying, heart pumping more forcefully in a pleasant way, improved blood flow (I have poor intestinal blood flow, I can tell from symptoms that it improved), my too low nightly blood pressure improved as measured by 24h BP, more energy, less chills and less feeling cold.

I would love to experience those (positive) effects! When you say better gastic emptying, do you mean emptying from stomach to intestines or actual better bowel/colon transit, and therefore helped with constipation?

I apply it some 0-30 min before protein-rich meals only:
Acetylcholine and serotonine antagonise each other. When I took it before salad meals (no tryptophane to produce serotonine) It didn't improve but inhibited upper gut motility (that "wonderful" stone-in-the-stomach feeling). Good motility needs serotonine and acetylcholine.

I have no idea if I'm low in serotonin and my doctor (Canada) will not order blood work at my request. Nor do I know if I'm low in acetylcholine although Mestinon did help with my POTS at one time although only for a short time period (with no adverse side effects). I'm thinking of ordering the Yarrow Alpha GPC on-line to see if it will help with chronic C/slow bowel motility. If I should also take serotonin (for the gut motility) what supplement do you use to help avoid the stone in gut feeling (I know it well) ?

For the last 6 wks I've been on omeprazole 20 mg 2x/day and Motilium 3x/day to help with GERD and the DX of abnormal high stomach acid (Heidelburg testing results). I wonder if the Alpha GPC would help with those GI issues as well as the C. I'd love to get off the Losec and Motilium.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Lolinda]

Choline will contribute in so far as that it helps with motility and motility is the single best defense agains bacteria, which are one of the main contributors to gerd. And it will also help with opening the pyloric sphincter, thus letting food out more easily of the stomach. Failure to do so is a contributor to gerd. If you want competent help with gerd, read Chris Kresser on that. I succeeded with his approach.
Choline will however also slightly backfire: the more forceful contractions of the stomach may increase some risk of gastric contents going upwards (if the problem is that your LES closes poorly)

Measuring serotonin in the gut is easy: take a 5hiaa urinary test.

Convincing doctors to do what you want: this is an art. needs to be learned. I use chocolate and flowers and most of all, beautiful art postcards to honor and appreciate them if they do what I want. Imagine, all people just see them as service stations... And then there comes: you. You appreciate them, honor them, maybe ask an honestly interested personal question or comment on a beautiful painting on their wall, whatever. One nice short but personal sentence + a beautiful postcard afterwards. You will be different than other patients.
Also I put hard research on their desk. Research is the god to wich they have sworn. If you put a cross ofJesus on the table of a priest, he might not älike it, but he cannot swipe it away. He must obey his god.
Always dress as a professional, not as a sick crippled guy. Good shirt, elegant shoes, a convincing, somewhat energetic posture,chest ahead, head up and smile. I was always irritated that I get better service when I dress well and do as if i had energy. Present my trouble not with my posture but my words and lab sheets, only. It simply helps! I tried various things and the best is a professional business dress and behaviour. Like a manager. It gives you authority. So you are no more the underdog, but a professional coming to a professional. Neither above, nor below.

Most importantly, present instructions to doctors always as questions: do you think it would make sense to measure ...? Did you have otherpatients with ... who had a ... test done?
And if he resists, see another doc, dont try to push. He failed (or he said sthg smart why not)

I failed on 5htp (-> serotonin). Have tryptophan on the list to try. All of these always transdermally to avoid feeding bad bugs. They love isolated nutrients and are better using them up than you do, and before you do.

Wonderful that you succeeded against pots!! What helped? You made me really curious

 

[charlie1]

@Lolinda -Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

If you want competent help with gerd, read Chris Kresser on that. I succeeded with his approach.

I've read his on-line GERD book and even was in touch with the people on the SCD site that he endorses. Both Chris and SCD feel that GERD and many other GI issues are due to not enough stomach acid. I went for an overnight stay in Toronto to do the Heidelburg PH test that they say is the Gold Standard to verify if one indeed has lo or hi stomach acidity. I was diagnosed with very high so they said in that case I was to see my doctor as their information wouldn't accurately pertain to me.

the more forceful contractions of the stomach may increase some risk of gastric contents going upwards (if the problem is that your LES closes poorly)

The upper endoscopy did not state if the LES was malfunctioning or not. I would need a different test for that to more accurately dx that and my doctor is not at this point in favour of any more testing. She prefers I take the losec and domperidone.(Motilium)

Measuring serotonin in the gut is easy: take a 5hiaa urinary test.

In Canada there is no way to get bloodwork or other medical testing done. Our healthcare is paid for by the govt but we are at the mercy of our doctors as to which ones and when they'll be ordered.

I use chocolate and flowers and most of all, beautiful art postcards to honor and appreciate them if they do what I want. Imagine, all people just see them as service stations... And then there comes: you. You appreciate them, honor them, maybe ask an honestly interested personal question or comment on a beautiful painting on their wall, whatever.

I've done all of that, including sending flowers to her home at Thanksgiving a few years back. Things were good until the POTS set in, back when we didn't know it was POTS. She told me it was pschosomatic...until my BP fell to 78/45 in the Endocrinologist office. Then he sent me to a neuroloigst who within 3 minutes of TTT'ng, dx'd me with POTS . Then I didn't see her almost 2 yrs b/c other than getting out to see those specialists, I was mostly housebound and/or hospitalized.

Also I put hard research on their desk.

She hates that. Actually she told me to quit worrying so much about my health issues and let her be the doctor! She said it proves that I'm anxious and should now go on an SSRI. Seriously, she doesn't have a clue about any of this and chooses not to.

Did you have otherpatients with ... who had a ... test done?
And if he resists, see another doc, dont try to push.

There is a doctor shortage in Ontario so leaving a doctor to go on a wait list for another is a huge decision. But I am seriously thinking about it. Just about at my wits end with her!

Wonderful that you succeeded against pots!! What helped? You made me really curious

I started hearing about neuroplasticity and read some books by Joe Dispenza and Norman Doidge. I had a huge turnaround within a short time which allowed me to attend a DNRS training session (Rewiring the brain) last October across the country which entailed a 4 hour flight! The course further strengthened my ANS. From being bed/house bound with my husband mashing my food and putting the spoon to my mouth (its hard for me to go back there in my mind...OMG it was bad) to now riding my bike 10 miles on a good day...I'm better than ever! Except now my GERD is causing lots of trouble. I'm back to practicing my visualization of 'good memories' but could also use some help medically.Re-wiring the brain throughNeuroplasticity is not an easy route nor does it mean we can't still use the help of medication to be a healthy version of ourselves.

So , if anyone can offer any advice for my GI issues , I'm truly thankful. As I've said, I'd like to get off the omeprazole (to avoid the feedback loop getting too messed up) but it does help with the stomach and chest pain that GERD is causing. And as for the domperidone, well, there are warnings for that drug
This is so long...hopefully someone bothers to read it!

 

[charlie1]

All that being said, I think I will order the Yarrow Alpha GPC but before taking it, stop the motility drug. Not sure though if I'll D/C the omeprazole ... the pain from high acid can be terrible!

 

[sb4]

I started hearing about neuroplasticity and read some books by Joe Dispenza and Norman Doidge. I had a huge turnaround within a short time which allowed me to attend a DNRS training session (Rewiring the brain) last October across the country which entailed a 4 hour flight! The course further strengthened my ANS. From being bed/house bound with my husband mashing my food and putting the spoon to my mouth (its hard for me to go back there in my mind...OMG it was bad) to now riding my bike 10 miles on a good day...I'm better than ever! Except now my GERD is causing lots of trouble. I'm back to practicing my visualization of 'good memories' but could also use some help medically.Re-wiring the brain throughNeuroplasticity is not an easy route nor does it mean we can't still use the help of medication to be a healthy version of ourselves.

I would like to hear more about this . What did it involve?

 

[charlie1]

@sb4 There is more on this in another thread titled: Anyone tried Limbic Retraining- Dynamic Neural Retraining System

 

[Lolinda]

The upper endoscopy did not state if the LES was malfunctioning or not. I would need a different test for that to more accurately dx that and my doctor is not at this point in favour of any more testing. She prefers I take the losec and domperidone.(Motilium)

In such a situation I would bet on the LES closing weakly. I understand that you have elevated stomach acid. But do you seriously believe that this can cause GERD? Yes it burns and yes it damages but all this only happens if the stomach acid goes into the wrong place, that is, upwards! Now how can it go upwards? Only if it passes the LES. If that closes shut, then you could.even have double as much acid as normal: how could that acid burn your esophagus if it is not there but in the stomach?

https://chriskresser.com/the-highly-effective-but-little-known-treatment-for-chronic-sinusitis/
melatonin has been shown to regulate the contractility of the lower esophageal sphincter, and that’s probably why it works in a couple studies as well as PPIs, a combination of melatonin and serotonergic nutrients like 5-HTP and methyl donors like B6 and B12 and folate.

Both Chris and SCD feel that GERD and many other GI issues are due to not enough stomach acid.

He says that for the majority of patients, but talks also about what is in his experience the minority: those with too much. But for any of these, acid cannot burn the esophagus if the acid is not in the esophagus

So my take would be this: go low risk. I think you are very right about side effects of motilium, I declined usung it for the same reason. Also, I think you are just right about the pain you get when simply stopping omeprazole. But increasing melatonin by eating its precursors is low risk (taking melatonin itself is more risky imo, but I forgot why and there are arguments on both sides). Even better and no risk: you can increase melatonin by making you room much darker after a meal (worked for me for other issues, that improve on melatonin). If you work at a computer or phone in the dark, put a blue light filter. It is the blue light that kills the melatonin. Additionally, I found sthg very interesting: certain herbal teas help to make me burp. I just tried many different ones that were labeled as digestive herbal mixes. And tried them before or after a meal. Less gas in the stomach = less pressure upwards. For me, low carb helps too, carbs make gerd come back (fermentation -> gas -> pressure). This is sthg I learned on one of the elder podcasts by chris kresser and I red reports of people who went from debilitating gerd to zero symptoms in weeks. Then if you succeeded (to some effect), the next thing with a small risk could be to take agp-choline to open the pyloric sphincter. I hope that at this point you will be happy to kick out the omeprazole and forget all the gerd alltogether

And a special trick for you
All kind of harmless herbal "antibiotics" not only kill fermenting bugs in the upper gut but also decrease stomach acid. The only exception is oregano oil which increases it. All else I checked decreases. I found cistus incanus herbal tea the utmost effective in killing microbes in the upper gut. There is even research that it does so. And it is better than normal antibio because it is eaten as food by bifidos in the colon, so it does not damage flora there. Again: killing bacteria -> less fermentation -> less pressure upwards.
All this assuming that you have any bad bugs in the stomach or small intestine.
I have low stomach acid, so I learned the hard way that cistus incanus lowers it....
Borrow me a bit of your stomach acid or tell me why it is high and I get more healthy

 

[charlie1]

Hi Lolinda

But do you seriously believe that this can cause GERD?

No, I never said that. I only said that LOW stomach acid, according to Chris and others, can apparently cause GERD. I, like you, believe GERD is due to the LES not functioning properly. Many EDS's have issues with their LES b/c of the cartilage/soft tissue laxity. And yes, stomach acid is meant to stay in the stomach, not the sensitive lining of the esophagus! Hence my pain !!! Ow...
So even if my stomach acid level was normal, it would still hurt once its in the esophagus. But mine is abnormally high so regardless, I want/need that taken care of...somehow.

melatonin has been shown to regulate the contractility of the lower esophageal sphincter, and that’s probably why it works in a couple studies as well as PPIs, a combination of melatonin and serotonergic nutrients like 5-HTP and methyl donors like B6 and B12 and folate.

I never heard this before. I don't take any B vitamin supplements..perhaps I will along with 5-HTP.
I will look into it.Thanks.

For me, low carb helps too, carbs make gerd come back (fermentation -> gas -> pressure). This is sthg I learned on one of the elder podcasts by chris kresser.

Yes, I read that on C K's site and also the SCD site with Jordan and Steve. Low carbs did make a difference, but not enough

I'm ordering the Yarrow Alpha GPC today to being with (will use transdermally). Seems the recent ultrasound found I have a fatty liver and pancreas so the choline can help those areas too (hopefully). I don't drink alcohol, or coffee, or smoke and am underweight. Eat lean meats and lots of eggs with coconut oil. Not the usual profile for fatty liver/pancreas so go figure..
If I'm still having trouble with the chest pain (GERD), I'll move on to the melatonin.
Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[charlie1]

btw, I'd love to drink tea but no matter what type I try (many!), I get a headache. I've been told its probably the tannins since this also happens when I drink red wine.

 

[Lolinda]

No, I never said that.

Sorry. You are right. I dont like being quoted wrong myself and I even more I dont like it if I quote wrong others!

I hope the 5htp helps. It helps so many people...
And a goodie for you:
"Intravenous infusions of 5-HTP were followed by a fall in the output of histamine-stimulated gastric secretion in anaesthetized dogs". Ok, you are neither anaesthetised nor a dog , still, I hope it helps...

Sadly, in me it caused also a side effect:
first, all good:
- I felt improved gastric motility ( I can feel that. Most people dont. But after more than a decade of yoga, I have quite good "interoceptive sensitivity", just to use a recently learned science-bullshit-bingo term )
- a nice relaxed feeling
but then:
- 4h later, a strong wave of heat allover.

This never happens in me otherwise, so I associated it with the 5htp. I would be curious if anyone knows what this could be and how 5htp causes it... And why it comes so late after 5htp. I took it transdermally, so no gut bug feeding or digestive issues...
It would be so logical that 5htp would help exactly me, as my 5hiaa in urine is close to zero...

There is more on this in another thread titled: Anyone tried Limbic Retraining- Dynamic Neural Retraining System

I never knew ths can be used for POTS! Thanks. Would you tell me more about the exact type of POTS you had?

(For example parameters such as:
- how many BPM increase upon standing up from laying position?
- you got that always? was it worse in certain situations such as postprandially or early morning?
- did you have a noradrenaline test?
- low flow, high flow or normal flow pots?
- hypadrenergic or neuropathic or ... what type of pots?

my thinking is that limbic retraining could be specifically helpful for certain types of pots.

 

[charlie1]

Hi. Sorry for the delay in responding...I was out of town.
@ Lollinda -

Ok, you are neither anaesthetised nor a dog , still, I hope it helps...

That made me smile!

I never knew ths can be used for POTS! Thanks. Would you tell me more about the exact type of POTS you had?

(For example parameters such as:
- how many BPM increase upon standing up from laying position?
- you got that always? was it worse in certain situations such as postprandially or early morning?
- did you have a noradrenaline test?
- low flow, high flow or normal flow pots?
- hypadrenergic or neuropathic or ... what type of pots?

my thinking is that limbic retraining could be specifically helpful for certain types of pots.

-The neurologist never told about a 'type' I had, only that both the tilt table results and my significant dysautonomia symptoms confirmed I had POTS. That particular dysautonomia clinic did not do noradrenaline testing.

-By the time I learned about the poor mans TTT'ing, my daily pulse and BP recordings were very low and I wasn't sure if the official testing would show an increase of >30bpm. But on testing day, within a few minutes of being upright on the table (I think less than 3 minutes), my heart rate rose ~ 70bpm ( We don't remember the exact numbers but my husband thinks I had was having a relatively good day and my HR lying down was about 60 and rose to 135)
Many days I had a bp of high 70's / high 40's with a pulse of 48- 52. I was dx with both bradycardia and hypotension in the ER yet had POTS.
-I'm not sure what you mean by low/high or normal flow POTS so I can't answer that.

You might be interested in looking at the website that first intrigued me and soon had me attending the DNRS session. They've since changed their website... https://retrainingthebrain.com
Hopefully you'll find it helpful.

Cheers!

 

[Lolinda]

Thanks a lot, @charlie1 ! I am very interested. Actually, I already know the Gupta-programm from which I profitted, which is very similar. But there was a core crtical problem with it. I am curious if it is the same here? - One had to train to learn to not think a bad / sickening thought that lies at the core of the problem, but the Gupta programm did not give any hints how to find this. I do not know if this description is clear enough?

Thanks!!

 

[charlie1]

One had to train to learn to not think a bad / sickening thought that lies at the core of the problem,

We were taught that thinking so much about our illness (or other problem) creates unique negative neural pathways that are unconsciously associated with the illness. Examples may be fear, pain, frustration, hopelessness etc. that might trigger the pathway.
So, if we don't allow ourselves to think those thoughts, that particular pathway will in time be used much less frequently or perhaps not be used at all. The idea is to create a new pathway through positive visualization and positive emotion (both, consecutively) to REPLACE the old neuropathway when triggered by the emotion/thought/ etc.that relates to the illness. Even researching or talking about the illness has the ability to reinforce the pathway even stronger so that's why its suggested to not even talk about the illness for at least 6 months while retraining the limbic system.. Once the new pathway is established, its usually 'safe' to converse/research illness etc again but that depends on the individual.
At the core, it's all about 'retraining your brain'.
If you research Neuroplasticity, or explore the website more, you'll get better info than I can provide!

 

[Lolinda]

fear, pain, frustration, hopelessness etc.

exactly! You immediately understood my not-so-clear question!
So, its just the same as Gupta. And here it all died, because if it is not one of these clear cases and one is generally positive in ones mind ("lets do the best possible") then its unclear
what to do or if the training can be any useful at all. It is for the people of the type "I know what my issue is, I am thinking negative" but who cannot resolve this. It is nice and important to help them, but who helps the rest? Now, I made once in my life a big experience that I was thinking negative but wasnt aware of it. Are you familiar with this experience? Dont know if you are interested to know the details, but it is actually short to describe: Years ago, I was often blocked (could not take part, was reduced to listening, if I said sthg it was clumsy and I made social mistakes) in group situations but not always. I found out that it is the presence of a certain type of people: I am blocked if there are vivid, energetic, fast-thinking self-confident persons. Isnt this stupid? Such great people! Then one day I discovered that the reason is that I am thinking negative: I see them (because of their power) as potential enemies and not as potential friends. This wasnt conscious, it was just an old automatism. How I discovered this is a story on its own (how can one discover sthg what is not a conscious thought, yet have full proof that it is there? ), but I dont bore you with the details. Now, after this, the solution wasnt difficult: I just visualized them as friends. Immediately earned a first improvement, then trained myself and maybe half a year or a year later no problem whatsoever. - Without ever having heard about lymbic retraining, Gupta, etc. The difficult part was the discovery of the negative thought. This is what took me years. Years, really. And such discovery of not fully conscious negative thought is lacking in the Gupta programme and in the end I spent the money with a little benefit but mostly in vain.