Folate and histamine issues

[ahmo]

Hi Izzy. With the underlying tick bite, you might benefit from Dr. Klinghardt's info. I don't think I posted this to you before. If I were you, I would postpone the abx permanently, seek other means. Here are some Klinghardt links. Best to you, ahmo


Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

Short Version (36pg) Pyroluria/Lyme protocol. From Powerpoint doc used during Klinghardt presentation: Lyme Induced Autism
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/1_KlinghardtKPU_09_PX.pdf

A Treatment Guide: Lyme and Other Chronic Infections (92 pgs) D. Klinghardt MD, 2009
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/treatinglyme 2010.pdf

Lyme Induced Autism 80 pg doc; comprehensive discussion, charts, thermal images
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/KlinghardtLIA_II.pdf

http://www.hputest.nl/evraag.htm Online questionnaire to suspect pyroluria

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you @whodathunkit !

That is why I didn't get better when I took niacin.

I am going to order a B complex from the local compounding pharmacy so I think it would be wise to leave it out... The thing is I desperately need nicotinamide b/c I have fast phase I and slow phase II of the liver and can't tolerate smells. Would it be advisable to take it separetely before bedtime? If I am an undermethylator this complicates everything...

My vega test has been done during my crisis (methyl groups defficient) and the results for B3 and B9 were

Vit.B3 ideally 200mg daily (min 50mg max 350mg)
Vit.B9 ideally 1000mcg daily (min 400mcg max 2000mcg)

Just to keep me confused...

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you so much, @ahmo! I will look into that. I am familiar with Klinghardt's work with Lyme, but those links are new to me.

 

[ahmo]

Izzy, I just posted some antibiotic alternatives here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...otic-and-cant-tolerate-any.29646/#post-452970

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks again, @ahmo!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland: That sounds like the paradoxical folate deficiency. If everything was fine for a week then went wonky, that's a typical pattern for paradoxical deficiency.

Also, if you are taking niacin/niacinimide and don't need it, that can cause you problems. To process niacin/niacinimide into the active form of the vitamin that the body can use requires methyl groups. That is, to process niacin/niacinimide the body takes methyl groups away from other physiological processes.

So if you are already undermethylating, processing niacin/niacinimide takes away methyl groups you really can't spare, thus causing you to be even more undermethylated than you were before taking niacin.

This is also why people who overmethylate are told to take niacin/niacinimide; it uses up the methyl groups that are causing them to feel bad, thus making them feel better.

If I were you, at the very least I would stop niacin/niacimide to see if I improved.

Increasing folate is the solution to paradoxical deficiency, but it's entirely up to you what you want to do. You could feel a bit worse before you get better when you do that. It happened to me. I got through it, but everyone's different. If your symptoms are very severe you are the only one who can decide whether or not you want to try to "push through" or stop. If you've never experienced healing crisis or detox before it can be kind of scary.

The rate at which you increase folate is also up to you, and also according to the state of your health. Because you are experiencing many problems already, if you do decide to increase, go slowly (like 200mcg or even less per day).

Also be aware that if you decide to add folate your potassium needs will probably go up for a while. If potassium chloride causes you problems there is another form called potassium gluconate that may be less problematic.

Good luck!

I have restarted the mB12 yesterday 2x 125 mcg. I felt better yesterday, but couldn't sleep. Today I already took 2x 125 mcg of mB12 and feel awful again. Weakness, anxiety, loss of appetite (can't eat vegetables apparently), chest mucus, runny nose, coarse voice. My potassium gluconate arrived today, but the B complex I have at home is :

2 capsules=
Mg citrate 300 mg
Zn glycine 15 mg
Chelated copper 1,2mg
Thiamin HCl (vit B1) 20 mg
Riboflavin (vit B2) 15 mg
Nicotinamide (vit B3) 30 mg
Calcium pantothenate (vit B5) 30 mg
Pirydoxine HCl (vit B6) 20 mg
Biotin 300 mcg
Potassium (aa complex) 100 mg
L-glicina 300 mg
Fosfatidilcolina 150 mg

My options are:

1) try folinic acid (I have 300mcg caps)
2) restart methylfolate at 200mcg
3) take the B complex above at full dose (2 caps) or half dose (1cap)

Questions:
- should I increase mB12?
- will I have to increase methylfolate very quickly?

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

Does anyone know if chamomile tea helps or would it be contraindicated?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I want to order a new B complex tomorrow so it can be delivered before the Eastern holiday
How about
vit B1 10 mg
vit B2 10 mg
Nicotinamide 20 mg
vit. B5 15 mg
vit B6 20 mg

My vega test results are
Vit.B1 15 mg
Vit.B2 1,5 mg
Vit.B3 200mg
Vit.B5 150mg
Vit.B6 10mg
Vit.B9 1000mcg
Vit.B12 500mcg
Vit.B15 300mg

izzy

 

[ahmo]

Izzy, the dosages sound good. Do you need active forms Of B2,6? Someone I read earlier today referred to active B5, which I've not heard of.

Today I already took 2x 125 mcg of mB12 and feel awful again. Weakness, anxiety, loss of appetite (can't eat vegetables apparently), chest mucus, runny nose, coarse voice.

Taking it w/o folate? This could be folate deficiency.

Chamomile should be fine

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks, @ahmo !
I don't know if I need activated forms, this is going to be my first B complex.
I am sure I run into folate defficiency. I am just afraid to start folate again. I want to want until I start the B complex before restarting folate.

 

[dannybex]

I have restarted the mB12 yesterday 2x 125 mcg. I felt better yesterday, but couldn't sleep. Today I already took 2x 125 mcg of mB12 and feel awful again. Weakness, anxiety, loss of appetite (can't eat vegetables apparently), chest mucus, runny nose, coarse voice. My potassium gluconate arrived today, but the B complex I have at home is :
Questions:
- should I increase mB12?
- will I have to increase methylfolate very quickly?

izzy

I don't know, but I've been having extreme anxiety (again, worst since 2011 when I was prescribed methylfolate, mb12, and other forms), and realized I'm probably taking too much folate and too much b12.

Dr. Ben Lynch has good info in general -- this is on methylfolate side effects:http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you @dannybex !
I am still sorting things out and living in constant breathlessness. I identifyed nitrate and salicylate sensitivities (probably caused by folate defficeincy). I am currently taking a low dose B complex and 50mcg mB12 daily (no folate, folinic or folic). And everyday I tolerate less vegetables.

I don't think I can benefit from the solutions listed by dr. Lynch...
1) Niacin is for overmethylation (I think I am folate defficient)
2) Curcumin is high salicylate (learned the hard way) and increases my breathlessness
3) HyB12, just like CyB12, contains a cyanide molecule. When I took CyB12 just once I felt an acute pain in the right kidney. So I assume HyB12 would have the same effect...

izzy

 

[Snowdrop]

Hi @Gondwanaland

I've been reading this thread and as I understand it HyB12 is a scavenger of cyanide molecules. It's what they administer for cyanide poisoning. I know it probably doesn't matter for what you're considering here but just for accuracy for anyone reading.

Hope you get sorted with your folate issues. Without coming to PR I know I'd be lost.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thank you so much, Snowdrop! Love your signature BTW!

 

[Freddd]

Hi Todd, thank you so much for the tips to deal with the histamines.

I am having some mucus build up in the lungs right now, but it isn't fluid enough. I hope when I start the Bcomplex I will get some breathing relief.

I think the histamines are probably related to sulfur/sulfites build up. I don't think it is regular histamine issue. Taking silymarin complicated everything b/c I think my liver released toxins worsening the histamine response. I am getting sudden sweats.

I see Neuroprotek is made from flavonoids. A couple of days ago I tried to drink hibiscus tea (quercetin) but got the sudden sweats. Chamomile tea helps, but I am trying not to overdo it.

I forgot to answer before, the methylfolate I took is from a local compounding pharmacy. But it is the real stuff, since I got serious cramps. I am having trouble to find an acceptable form of potassium supplementation, since I can only get it with a prescription, and no one will give me a prescription for that. I found the KCl I used to cook my food disturbs my endocrine system too much.

izzy

HI Izzy,

High histamines are characteristic of paradoxical folate deficiency. That is not usually an early noticeable symptom. Low potassium is characteristic of more tissue formation. I have best success with the Potassium gluconate and can easy control the dose size for my tolerance with or without food. The time release potassium chloride has a back box warning because it can kill tissue under certain circumstances, and not all brands are equal in how well the dissolve, or that was the case a few years ago. There are supposed to be used when a person is "unable to follow an oral protocol".

There is a fault in your understanding. A low dose of folate that succeeds in getting even one triage level healing will cause a substantial potassium need, perhaps 2/3 of the total needed for a fully effective dose of Metafolin. There is nothing approaching a linear response as far as need for potassium. And the donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency will be worse.

If the folinic acid works it will give you the same need for potassium and donut hole PFD otherwise it will cause a different form of PFD and again need for potassium may be triggered on at least 1 level.

Good luck

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks for chiming in, @Freddd ! I am so glad to see you around again!

I haven't taken any folate since March, been on a low dose Bcompl (1, 2, 3, 5, 7) and about 2 weeks ago I was able to tolerate mB12 again (currently on 50mcg/day orally not sublingually). And now the vegetables I eat are making me sick... I have potassium gluconate at home, but I get an electric feeling in the pituitary from it when I take it orally, so I had been making foot baths with it, but stopped due to increased urine volume and kidney discomfort. I also have potassium bicarbonate at home, but haven't tried it yet. I divided one capsule of 500mg into 62mg doses for trial, but since I am not taking folate I haven't taken it.

I had a hard time with organic forms of magnesium, tried glycinate an citrate and both made my pituitary electric (same thing with vit C), so now I am taking Mg oxide, which isn't very effective. But I take it before bed and it kinda relieves the breathlessness.

Freddd, I wish you would publish a book, so I could give it to a doctor to help me.

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

HI Izzy,

High histamines are characteristic of paradoxical folate deficiency. That is not usually an early noticeable symptom.

I have been puzzled about that and tracked it down to some evidence that MCTs (coconut) induce allergy reactions

"Mechanism of food allergy (FA) induction by medium chain triglycerides (MCT)"
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/192...ls=yes&legid=jimmunol;192/1_Supplement/119.29

"Dietary medium-chain triglycerides promote oral allergic sensitization and orally induced anaphylaxis to peanut protein in mice"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23182172

When I had my big troubles w/ folate last March, I didn't have potassium supplements at home (huge mistake, I know) and was drinking way too much coconut water and coconut milk. Then most of what followed has been salicylate/nitrate intolerance...

izzy

 

[dannybex]

Thank you @dannybex !
I am still sorting things out and living in constant breathlessness. I identifyed nitrate and salicylate sensitivities (probably caused by folate defficeincy). I am currently taking a low dose B complex and 50mcg mB12 daily (no folate, folinic or folic). And everyday I tolerate less vegetables.

I don't think I can benefit from the solutions listed by dr. Lynch...
1) Niacin is for overmethylation (I think I am folate defficient)
2) Curcumin is high salicylate (learned the hard way) and increases my breathlessness
3) HyB12, just like CyB12, contains a cyanide molecule. When I took CyB12 just once I felt an acute pain in the right kidney. So I assume HyB12 would have the same effect...

izzy

I don't know, but I don't think that salicylate intolerance (which I have as well) is due to a lack of folate. I'm still trying to figure this out, and will ask someone here who I think is very knowledgeable about it, but it's my understanding that salicylate intolerance results in sulfation problems, which I think -- think -- are resolved with a magnesium and b6 combination. But will try and find out for sure. I've been dealing with it for years now, and methylfolate just made it worse.

 

[Gondwanaland]

It makes sense, @dannybex ... That is why I have been feeling sicker after going gluten free and trying paleo diet (way before trying methylation)...

I probably have been (slightly?) salicylate intolerant for a long time without knowing it. Now I know what it is like to crave foods that you are allergic to (almonds, coconut, spinach etc)

Two weeks ago I went to the endocrinologist with a TSH of 4.6 and a swollen throat and thought that I had goiter, so now I am on levothyroxine (only treatment available where I live).

Yesterday I went to the psychiatrist and today I am starting to take citalopram because I get very depressed when I can't breathe. Of course the psychiatrist thinks my throat swells from stress...

I notice that I do feel better after taking Mg...

Have you been trying Mg + B6? Do you have links/threads to recommend on the subject?

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

@dannybex do you have high uric acid? Last time my uric acid has been measured was in December, and it was just above the "normal range". Since then I supplemented with molybdenum for a while, so I assume it is even higher by now... I would like to recommend this interesting discussion:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ylate-inhibits-mast-cell-degranulation.30056/

izzy