First hint of 'life after death'

[barbc56]

My guess is that some of these out of body experiences are similar to what happened in the 1980s/1990s with repressed memories. People would recount in extreme detail instances of sexual abuse from family members to ritualistic abuse from satanic cults. All these were elicited by well meaning, well at least at the time therapist, as this type of therapy is now discredited. Supposedly these memories were so traumatic the person would block themd until a therapist "helped" the patient to recover the blocked memories with the intention of curing the patient's psychiatric problems.

Responses were illicited through leading questions as well as hypnosis and other means.

Unfortunately, the consequences have literally torn families apart and even prosecuted the supposed offenders leading to jail sentences. I know a family who went through this and it was heartbreaking.

Imagine my surprise when reading one of my favorite blogs this morning, the topic of repressed memories was being discussed. I was also quite surprised this is still going on. There's a link about a family who recently went through this that I would highly recommend reading this.

I have no idea to what extent this happened in this particular study in this thread but would love to know know what questions that were asked. I would also think going through an experience like this you might be more susceptible to suggestions.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/false-memory-syndrome-alive-and-well/#more-34328

Barb

ETA Excuse any typos, misspellings as the predictive text on my tablet is doing some strange things.

 

[Lou]

@free at last Wasn't taken personally. Just thought those items mentioned could be addressed. Perhaps my tone could have been lighter; agreed.

 

[barbc56]

@free at last

I think you are making some assumptions here that may not apply.

As a quasi "flower child" of the sixties and seventies sans drugs and only mj, which only make me sick and I didnt like the feeling. I was into all of this mystical stuff and did extensive reading on all things supernatural.

Obviously I am not now but this in no way means I am closed minded.

Barb

 

[MeSci]

The OBE might be too easy and I'd probable not disagree, but what about the NDE and the intricate detail and apparent realism and deep emotional impact that last a lifetime and often change people in marked fashion? Where's the experimental impetus for that when an individual has no heartbeat or discernible brain function? Wouldn't a purely physical explanation rely more on haphazard, chaotic, and nonsensical images in such a state?

I can't think why a memory of an NDE shouldn't be clear and memorable rather than chaotic. There are various things that focus our minds very clearly, such as extreme danger, perhaps via a particular configuration of neurotransmitters. Perhaps a lot of stuff is filtered out at such times, and perhaps other stuff that is usually filtered out isn't. An NDE may do things like hallucinogenic drugs do, and from personal experience I can report that these can be extraordinary, beautiful and clear, and look very real even if we know that they are probably not (whatever 'real' is ).

Perhaps Aldous Huxley's book 'The Doors of Perception' would be relevant and of interest to some people here.

 

[MeSci]

@free at last

I think you are making some assumptions here that may not apply.

As a quasi "flower child" of the sixties and seventies sans drugs and only mj, which only make me sick and I didnt like the feeling. I was into all of this mystical stuff and did extensive reading on all things supernatural.

Obviously I am not now but this in no way means I am closed minded.

Barb

I'm the same, but did all the drugs!

 

[barbc56]

I'm the same, but did all the drugs!

I'm not all that innocent, hee, hee but they made me sick as well as alcohol.

I know If I ever tried anything like cocaine, I would drop dead from a heart attack. I have no idea about an obe, though.

Barb

 

[MeSci]

I'm not all that innocent, hee, hee but they made me sick as well as alcohol.

I know If I ever tried anything like cocaine, I would drop dead from a heart attack. I have no idea about an obe, though.

Barb

Cocaine just made me irritable and jittery. Tried it 3 times. Heroin made me throw up for 8 hours plus a horrible feeling of being restrained, like being wrapped or covered with something and having difficulty getting out of it. Didn't do that again!

Things affect everyone differently.

But I think LSD may be more relevant to the thread. That really causes dramatic changes in perception, and not just visual perception.

 

[free at last]

@free at last

I think you are making some assumptions here that may not apply.

As a quasi "flower child" of the sixties and seventies sans drugs and only mj, which only make me sick and I didnt like the feeling. I was into all of this mystical stuff and did extensive reading on all things supernatural.

Obviously I am not now but this in no way means I am closed minded.

Barb

You don't have to be Barb. I think you know very well the answers to most problems. Especially the mystical or supernatural type

 

[free at last]

I can't think why a memory of an NDE shouldn't be clear and memorable rather than chaotic. There are various things that focus our minds very clearly, such as extreme danger, perhaps via a particular configuration of neurotransmitters. Perhaps a lot of stuff is filtered out at such times, and perhaps other stuff that is usually filtered out isn't. An NDE may do things like hallucinogenic drugs do, and from personal experience I can report that these can be extraordinary, beautiful and clear, and look very real even if we know that they are probably not (whatever 'real' is ).

Perhaps Aldous Huxley's book 'The Doors of Perception' would be relevant and of interest to some people here.

I can think of quite a few reasons why a NDE might not be clear, and memorable, rather than chaotic. Having a cardiac arrest, with blood flow almost stopping to the brain, is one thing that springs to my lateral mind.

What is really strange from this comment though.Is often they are ?

Sometimes so much so they can be life changing according to experiencers, and researchers ?

Its one thing to try and elicit a OBE type of experience with drugs, and other methods. But another for it to happen naturally without mind altering drugs.

I think the comparison. is a little far fetched personally. Though I can see why you are trying. All theories are worthwhile exploring. Though we have to be careful not to overstretch them, as I feel often people do.

Rather than concede, the phenomena could be real. Or just be comfortable with being unsure.

I think that notion is distinctly uncomfortable to those who like the world, to be in its place dammit. And we know who they are, no names of course. ( just humour )

I don't want to go into drugs. But I will say I have never had a OBE.

That's clear enough for me to believe the drug comments are really a bit overstated.

Erm not only is the experience different, and doesn't elicit, a OBE most of the time.

But even if It did. I would bet there would be considerable differences, between the two.

People for the most part are not using drugs when they have this experience. Especially LSD Searching for straws is fine, if that's peoples pastime. I prefer to just say I don't know. Unless I can think of a theory that actually makes sense. Or fits the Bill. Which to be honest, I don't really think I have seen yet. From all the clever minds combined on here.
A shame really. But points for trying.

 

[free at last]

Btw guys and gals the like button is a great tool. But has anyone noticed. Certain names seem to stick together on the like plane. Its a great tool. But ? lets spread the love a bit more.

 

[barbc56]

I have just started reading the book by Oliver Sacks, Hallucinations and I can't put it down.

The very first chapter is about Charles Bonnet syndrome which is a very distinctive type of hallucination in people who are visually impared. I think it's mostly with people who have macular degeneration.

For those interested here is a Ted Talk by Dr. Dominick ffytche about this condition. No that's not a typo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVOG5Ifbf4c

Barb

 

[barbc56]

Another problem with the study is the fact that these patients weren't hooked up to an EEG, so it had to be speculation that no brain activity was occuring.

How many patients were included who had this happen where no EKG was available such as in a waiting room of the hospital and may have been revived there?. Were most of the patients hooked up to an EKG? Does an EKG give a definitive reading that the heart has stopped or can there be activity not picked up by an EKG?

Does anyone have access to the full study? Did I miss it on this thread? I'll go back and look

Barb

 

[free at last]

is

Another problem with the study is the fact that these patients weren't hooked up to an EEG, so it had to be speculation that no brain activity was occuring.

How many patients were included who had this happen where no EKG was available such as in a waiting room of the hospital and may have been revived there?. Were most of the patients hooked up to an EKG? Does an EKG give a definitive reading that the heart has stopped or can there be activity not picked up by an EKG?

Does anyone have access to the full study? Did I miss it on this thread? I'll go back and look

Barb

At last some interesting questions Barb. I think in the case I talk about, the one where he seemed to accurately recall events for up to three mins with little or no heart beat.
the researcher's said this
while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resusci-tation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.
Here is interesting reading from the study Barb

Although the etiology of awareness during CA is unknown, the results of our study and in particular our verified case of VA suggest it may be dissimilar to awareness during anesthesia. While some investigators have hypothesized there may be a brief surge of electrical activity after cardiac standstill,in contrast to anesthesia typically there is no measurable brain function within seconds after cardiac standstill.This ‘flat lined’ isoelectric brain state which occurs with CA onset usually continues throughout CPR since insufficient cerebral blood flow (CBF) is achieved to meet cerebral metabolic requirements during conventional CPR.However it was estimated our patient maintained awareness for number of minutes into CA.

While certain deep coma states may lead to a selective absence of cortical electrical activity in the presence of deeper brain activity,this seems unlikely during CA as this condition is associated with global rather than selective cortical hypo perfusion as evidenced by the loss of brain stem function. Thus, within a model that assumes a causative relation-ship between cortical activity and consciousness the occurrence of mental processes and the ability to accurately describe events during CA as occurred in our verified case of VA when cerebral function is ordinarily absent or at best severely impaired
is perplexing

This is particularly the case as reductions in CBF typically lead to delirium followed by coma, rather than an accurate and lucid mental state.

Despite many anecdotal reports and recent studies supporting the occurrence of NDE’s and possible VA during CA, this was the first large-scale study to investigate the frequency of awareness,while attempting to correlate patients’ claims of VA with events that occurred during cardiac arrest. While the low incidence (2%) of explicit recall of VA impaired our ability to use images to objectively examine the validity of specific claims associated with VA, nonetheless our verified case of VA suggests conscious awareness may occur beyond the first 20–30 s after CA (when some residual brain elec-trical activity may occur) while providing a quantifiable time period of awareness after the brain ordinarily reaches an isolectric state.The case indicates the experience likely occurred during CA rather than after recovery from CA or before CA.

No CBF would be expected since unlike ventricular tachycardia, VF is incompatible with cardiac contractility particularly after CPR has stopped during a rhythm check. Although, similar experiences have been categorized using the scientifically undefined and imprecise term of out of body experiences (OBE’s), and further categorized as autoscopy and optical illusions,our study suggests that VA and veridical
perception during CA are dissimilar to autoscopy since patients did not describe seeing their own double. Furthermore as hallucinations refer to experiences that do not correspond with objective reality, our findings do not suggest that VA in CA is likely to be hallucinatory or illusory since the recollections corresponded with actual verified events. Our results also highlight limitations with the categorization of experiences in relation to CA as hallucinatory,particularly as the reality of human experience is not determined neurologically
it goes on Barb
Here is the link
http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Journal_Resuscitation__2_.pdf

 

[free at last]

@free at last Wasn't taken personally. Just thought those items mentioned could be addressed. Perhaps my tone could have been lighter; agreed.

No I understood Lou. We all just want fair respect for our views. That's all.
Un popular science, or belief, does make some uncomfortable. Its the way of the world.
But also remember the compassion and help. All do on here.
We could be completely wrong. We all have to concede its possible

 

[barbc56]

@free at last

Thanks for the link.

I had a hard time sorting which part of your post was a direct quote. In case you don't know, the quote botton is in a different place.

See here.

Barb

 

[free at last]

@free at last

Thanks for the link.

I had a hard time sorting which part of your post was a direct quote. In case you don't know, the quote botton is in a different place.

See here.

Barb

Ok here my statements are highlighted.

At last some interesting questions Barb. I think in the case I talk about, the one where he seemed to accurately recall events for up to three mins with little or no heart beat.
the researcher's said this

while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.

Here is interesting reading from the study Barb

Although the etiology of awareness during CA is unknown, the results of our study and in particular our verified case of VA suggest it may be dissimilar to awareness during anesthesia. While some investigators have hypothesized there may be a brief surge of electrical activity after cardiac standstill,in contrast to anesthesia typically there is no measurable brain function within seconds after cardiac standstill.This ‘flat lined’ isoelectric brain state which occurs with CA onset usually continues throughout CPR since insufficient cerebral blood flow (CBF) is achieved to meet cerebral metabolic requirements during conventional CPR.However it was estimated our patient maintained awareness for number of minutes into CA.
While certain deep coma states may lead to a selective absence of cortical electrical activity in the presence of deeper brain activity,this seems unlikely during CA as this condition is associated with global rather than selective cortical hypo perfusion as evidenced by the loss of brain stem function. Thus, within a model that assumes a causative relation-ship between cortical activity and consciousness the occurrence of mental processes and the ability to accurately describe events during CA as occurred in our verified case of VA when cerebral function is ordinarily absent or at best severely impaired
is perplexing
This is particularly the case as reductions in CBF typically lead to delirium followed by coma, rather than an accurate and lucid mental state.
Despite many anecdotal reports and recent studies supporting the occurrence of NDE’s and possible VA during CA, this was the first large-scale study to investigate the frequency of awareness,while attempting to correlate patients’ claims of VA with events that occurred during cardiac arrest. While the low incidence (2%) of explicit recall of VA impaired our ability to use images to objectively examine the validity of specific claims associated with VA, nonetheless our verified case of VA suggests conscious awareness may occur beyond the first 20–30 s after CA (when some residual brain elec-trical activity may occur) while providing a quantifiable time period of awareness after the brain ordinarily reaches an isolectric state.The case indicates the experience likely occurred during CA rather than after recovery from CA or before CA.
No CBF would be expected since unlike ventricular tachycardia, VF is incompatible with cardiac contractility particularly after CPR has stopped during a rhythm check. Although, similar experiences have been categorized using the scientifically undefined and imprecise term of out of body experiences (OBE’s), and further categorized as autoscopy and optical illusions,our study suggests that VA and veridical
perception during CA are dissimilar to autoscopy since patients did not describe seeing their own double. Furthermore as hallucinations refer to experiences that do not correspond with objective reality, our findings do not suggest that VA in CA is likely to be hallucinatory or illusory since the recollections corresponded with actual verified events. Our results also highlight limitations with the categorization of experiences in relation to CA as hallucinatory,particularly as the reality of human experience is not determined neurologically

it goes on Barb
Here is the link

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Journal_Resuscitation__2_.pdf

 

[Hip]

One study discovered that individuals who have had a near-death experience (NDE) were found to have temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) or altered temporal lobe functioning in their left hemisphere. So it may be that these near-death experience are in fact a symptom and manifestation of temporal lobe epilepsy. Individuals who have had such NDEs thus appear to have a different brain physiology from the general population, due to their altered temporal lobe activity.

There is some interesting info about temporal lobe epilepsy symptoms here:

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy | Doctor | Patient.co.uk

In the above link it states that one possible symptom of a TLE seizure is seeing your own body from outside.

Lack of oxygen is a known factor that can precipitate epileptic seizures, so if you have a propensity to temporal lobe seizures, then the oxygen starvation during the period in which you are technically dead on the operating table could easily trigger a temporal lobe seizure, leading to this condition known to exist in TLE of seeing your own body from outside.



Temporal lobe epilepsy has also been linked to producing spiritual and mystical mind states, such as ecstatic religious experiences.

My own very strange hallucinatory experiences with temporal lobe epilepsy as a child are detailed this post, and the next post below that.

 

[Gijs]

This study can't explain the NDE. These individuals were found to have more temporal lobe epileptiform electroencephalographic activity than control subjects, People with cardiac arrest and NDE don't have electricactivity in the brains. Moreover someone who is blind his whole life and can see when he had a NDE can't explain neither. The place in the brain called the gyrus angularis gives a 'feeling'' leaving the body that is really something else as people with cardiac arrest describes.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

People with cardiac arrest and NDE don't have electricactivity in the brains.

Sorry, but all this stuff quoted above is nonsense. For the vast majority of people on CPR nobody has an EEG around. I have given CPR for fifteen minutes on end with the person moving around and saying things (presumably therefore with some brain activity) despite no heart beat of their own throughout. Nobody leaves someone with a cardiac arrest without CPR just to see if they might have an interesting NDE when they happen to wake up without CPR by magic. So - er - what is actually surprising in these cases please?

I do enjoy all the speculation on PR but all the arguments these cardiac enthusiasts for NDE make would make most of my colleagues burst out laughing - they just don't add up. Wonderful to have people exchanging opinions on half baked scientific (note that science is just the art of explanation, not any particular set of explanations that are right or wrong) ideas but I think if you think about it hard there is no evidence here at all.

And I guess a NDE would have quite strong emotional impact if you had nearly been dead!

 

[barbc56]

@Hip

The link to your link has kept me reading the last several hours. Susan Blackmore is a fascinating person!

Thanks

Barb