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First hint of 'life after death'

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Especially when you said you did not say something that you clearly did. suggesting I was in someway wrong in pointing that out ?

Slightly lost on your points. Jam. But we are all ME/CFS patients here. So I think of everyone on here as a friend
including you. But quite confused
I threw out one phrase that didn't match my argument, in the context of everything else I said, you were very much picking.

This week I started a new job and 2-7 week graduate courses, my dog died, and I'm trying to write my thesis, all while still somewhat symptomatic (maybe insane should be part of my file) so picking at one phrase in a conversation like that seems just a tad over the top. I type these things out very quickly and move on.

My over all argument was that most, and a preponderance, etc, of information and data, points to.... so it wasn't clear at all that I thought ALL of anything. It was one off the cuff turn of phrase. This is not a medical debate, if it were I would be citing sources for every single thing I said and proof reading things before I posted them.

I think my point was quite clear, if it isn't I'm sorry, but I don't have the time, energy, or care enough to continue. I hope you have a happy and health day.
 
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I agree with most of your points, but to know that we are on the brink of discovering anything would require...clairvoyance! :lol:
I think it is a logical conclusion given the rise in technology that has lead to us being able to know so much more than we did a decade ago, I'm not saying it will happen in my life time, but in the scope of eons I think it is fair to say on the brink. A bit hopeful maybe, but fair.
 

free at last

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I threw out one phrase that didn't match my argument, in the context of everything else I said, you were very much picking.

This week I started a new job and 2-7 week graduate courses, my dog died, and I'm trying to write my thesis, all while still somewhat symptomatic (maybe insane should be part of my file) so picking at one phrase in a conversation like that seems just a tad over the top. I type these things out very quickly and move on.

My over all argument was that most, and a preponderance, etc, of information and data, points to.... so it wasn't clear at all that I thought ALL of anything. It was one off the cuff turn of phrase. This is not a medical debate, if it were I would be citing sources for every single thing I said and proof reading things before I posted them.

I think my point was quite clear, if it isn't I'm sorry, but I don't have the time, energy, or care enough to continue. I hope you have a happy and health day.
I can only respond to your words Jam. not the fact that you are throwing out phrases that don't match your arguments. Or the fact your starting a new job, your dog died, are writing thesis, are symptomatic. As reasons for throwing out phrases that don't match your argument. I can only reply to things you are saying.
If you see that as over the top. I am sorry. But hey, I also hope you have a happy day.
 

Countrygirl

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JAM: I am so sorry to hear of your dreadful week! I homed in on the loss of your dog. I was devastated when I lost my companion of 17 years and I admire you for coping with so much.

Sending you my warmest wishes and I hope things run smoothly for you so that you can cope with all the hassles and grief you are experiencing just now.

C.G.
 

free at last

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Btw Jam sorry to hear you have had such a bad week. Life isn't always easy I know. Me my self I haven't been great either, I have been in hospital twice recently the last time with my liver swelling up, and turning yellow. I also developed some kind of extreme nerve pain the last few days in my left leg. the pain is immense. Maybe Sciatica I don't know. Life can be hard sometimes. But I do think there is always someone else who has it even worse. So I try to be positive. TC
 
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I was thinking maybe Susan Blackmore ?
I think it would have been Greenfield. Susan Blackmore is a sort of eliminativist about consciousness, I think.

I agree with barbc56 that this is no very big deal I am afraid. I have had people aware while I kept them alive for many minutes with heart massage despite their heart having stopped. OK you might say that then their brain had enough oxygen but the reality is that most of the time we start heart massage before anybody has got an ECG on to tell the heart has stopped. You can stay aware for quite a few minutes with just the occasional tweak from a heart - I have had it myself with a Stokes Adams attack when I was 23.

I think the business of 'out of body' experience is easily enough explained. When you are anaesthetised or suffering from shortage of blood to the brain in a faint it is not unusual for some sensations to disappear but others, often hearing, to remain. When I had nitrous oxide as a kid for tooth extraction I remember hearing the dentist talking but not feeling any touch or seeing anything. My guess is that if you lose proprioception and touch you fell pretty much 'out of body' because you cannot have any sense of being in a body you cannot feel. I think the thing about being on the ceiling is a bit fanciful and as far as I know nobody confirmed it.

For me the best account of what consciousness is comes from Leibniz in 1714, exactly 300 years ago. He got one or two things wrong technically but explained that everything in the universe exists only in the sense that it perceives the rest of the univere. In most cases the perceiving is confused but for our 'souls' the perceiving is clear consciousness. Leibniz did not know quite what a soul would be but he gave an account of something that sounds exactly like what you get in modern quantum mechanics. But is would not just be an electron or a proton, it would be a unit of 'force' that occupies an entire body. Quantum theory actually has things like that, so I think he was pretty nearly right.

I thought this was an ME site though?!!
 

MeSci

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I think it would have been Greenfield. Susan Blackmore is a sort of eliminativist about consciousness, I think.

I agree with barbc56 that this is no very big deal I am afraid. I have had people aware while I kept them alive for many minutes with heart massage despite their heart having stopped. OK you might say that then their brain had enough oxygen but the reality is that most of the time we start heart massage before anybody has got an ECG on to tell the heart has stopped. You can stay aware for quite a few minutes with just the occasional tweak from a heart - I have had it myself with a Stokes Adams attack when I was 23.

I think the business of 'out of body' experience is easily enough explained. When you are anaesthetised or suffering from shortage of blood to the brain in a faint it is not unusual for some sensations to disappear but others, often hearing, to remain. When I had nitrous oxide as a kid for tooth extraction I remember hearing the dentist talking but not feeling any touch or seeing anything. My guess is that if you lose proprioception and touch you fell pretty much 'out of body' because you cannot have any sense of being in a body you cannot feel. I think the thing about being on the ceiling is a bit fanciful and as far as I know nobody confirmed it.

For me the best account of what consciousness is comes from Leibniz in 1714, exactly 300 years ago. He got one or two things wrong technically but explained that everything in the universe exists only in the sense that it perceives the rest of the univere. In most cases the perceiving is confused but for our 'souls' the perceiving is clear consciousness. Leibniz did not know quite what a soul would be but he gave an account of something that sounds exactly like what you get in modern quantum mechanics. But is would not just be an electron or a proton, it would be a unit of 'force' that occupies an entire body. Quantum theory actually has things like that, so I think he was pretty nearly right.

I thought this was an ME site though?!!
Oh, we talk about all sorts of things here, @Jonathan Edwards!
 

free at last

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I think it would have been Greenfield. Susan Blackmore is a sort of eliminativist about consciousness, I think.

I agree with barbc56 that this is no very big deal I am afraid. I have had people aware while I kept them alive for many minutes with heart massage despite their heart having stopped. OK you might say that then their brain had enough oxygen but the reality is that most of the time we start heart massage before anybody has got an ECG on to tell the heart has stopped. You can stay aware for quite a few minutes with just the occasional tweak from a heart - I have had it myself with a Stokes Adams attack when I was 23.

I think the business of 'out of body' experience is easily enough explained. When you are anaesthetised or suffering from shortage of blood to the brain in a faint it is not unusual for some sensations to disappear but others, often hearing, to remain. When I had nitrous oxide as a kid for tooth extraction I remember hearing the dentist talking but not feeling any touch or seeing anything. My guess is that if you lose proprioception and touch you fell pretty much 'out of body' because you cannot have any sense of being in a body you cannot feel. I think the thing about being on the ceiling is a bit fanciful and as far as I know nobody confirmed it.

For me the best account of what consciousness is comes from Leibniz in 1714, exactly 300 years ago. He got one or two things wrong technically but explained that everything in the universe exists only in the sense that it perceives the rest of the univere. In most cases the perceiving is confused but for our 'souls' the perceiving is clear consciousness. Leibniz did not know quite what a soul would be but he gave an account of something that sounds exactly like what you get in modern quantum mechanics. But is would not just be an electron or a proton, it would be a unit of 'force' that occupies an entire body. Quantum theory actually has things like that, so I think he was pretty nearly right.

I thought this was an ME site though?!!
BTW you had me stumped with 'eliminativist', and the Oxford and Cambridge online dictionaries were too. Found it here.
I think it would have been Greenfield. Susan Blackmore is a sort of eliminativist about consciousness, I think.

I agree with barbc56 that this is no very big deal I am afraid. I have had people aware while I kept them alive for many minutes with heart massage despite their heart having stopped. OK you might say that then their brain had enough oxygen but the reality is that most of the time we start heart massage before anybody has got an ECG on to tell the heart has stopped. You can stay aware for quite a few minutes with just the occasional tweak from a heart - I have had it myself with a Stokes Adams attack when I was 23.

I think the business of 'out of body' experience is easily enough explained. When you are anaesthetised or suffering from shortage of blood to the brain in a faint it is not unusual for some sensations to disappear but others, often hearing, to remain. When I had nitrous oxide as a kid for tooth extraction I remember hearing the dentist talking but not feeling any touch or seeing anything. My guess is that if you lose proprioception and touch you fell pretty much 'out of body' because you cannot have any sense of being in a body you cannot feel. I think the thing about being on the ceiling is a bit fanciful and as far as I know nobody confirmed it.

For me the best account of what consciousness is comes from Leibniz in 1714, exactly 300 years ago. He got one or two things wrong technically but explained that everything in the universe exists only in the sense that it perceives the rest of the univere. In most cases the perceiving is confused but for our 'souls' the perceiving is clear consciousness. Leibniz did not know quite what a soul would be but he gave an account of something that sounds exactly like what you get in modern quantum mechanics. But is would not just be an electron or a proton, it would be a unit of 'force' that occupies an entire body. Quantum theory actually has things like that, so I think he was pretty nearly right.

I thought this was an ME site though?!!
Hi Jonathan. We haven't spoke before. So I would like to say Thanks for trying to help the patients. The field needs experts like you. And it often requires a certain amount of courage to be involved in such a controversial illness.
So I was very pleased to see you using your expertise on the forum.

I originally posted this under community, but it was merged with a previous thread I hadn't seen.
I have not made my mind up about the subject under discussion. I do understand what you are saying. and you may well be right. But your explanations may not always add up to some of the visual accounts that people have given. Especially some I read recently from Professor Ring who Studied OBEs and NDEs in the blind.
He said
ABSTRACT: This article reports the results of an investigation into neardeath

and out-of-body experiences in 31 blind respondents. The study sought
to address three main questions: (1) whether blind individuals have neardeath
experiences (NDEs) and, if so, whether they are the same as or different
from those of sighted persons; (2) whether blind persons ever claim
to see during NDEs and out-of-body experiences (OBEs); and (3) if such
claims are made, whether they can ever be corroborated by reference to independent
evidence. Our findings revealed that blind persons, including
those blind from birth, do report classic NDEs of the kind common to sighted
persons; that the great preponderance of blind persons claim to see during
NDEs and OBEs; and that occasionally claims of visually-based knowledge
that could not have been obtained by normal means can be independently
corroborated. We present and evaluate various explanations of these findings
before arriving at an interpretation based on the concept of transcendental
awareness.

Ring continues
do blind persons in fact have
NDEs and, if they do, are they the same as or different from those
of sighted persons? Second, do blind persons, if they do report either
NDEs or OBEs, claim to have visual perceptions during these experiences?
And, finally, if such claims are made, is it ever possible to
corroborate them through independent evidence or the testimony of
other witnesses? In other words, can one establish that these claims
are something other than mere fantasies or hallucinations?
These were the issues, then, this study was designed to probe.

Here Ring attempts to demonstrate, the explanations you put forward, may not be enough to explain the discrepancies seen.
Corroborative Evidence for OBE
and NDE Visions

Obviously, in order to demonstrate that the perceptions described
by our blind experiencers are something other than mere fantasies
or even complex hallucinations, it will be necessary to provide some
kind of confirming evidence for them, preferably from other independent
witnesses or from reliable documentation. But just here, not
surprisingly, is where it proves difficult to gather the type of indispensable
corroboration that would help to cinch the argument

But Ring tries to gather independent witnesses that corroborate the testimony of these experiences. He fails to do so in one case. but gets very close in another.
saying here.

So here, although we lack the crucial confirming facts we need
from the witness involved, we nevertheless have a highly suggestive
instance that this man's recall of his experience is essentially accurate.
However, the obvious weaknesses in and ultimate inconclusiveness
of this case were overcome in our second example.in which a
direct and independent corroboration of the respondent's own testimony
was obtained.

Here is the full study if your interested Jonathan. While I agree this is not proof. it does at the very least suggest it may be worth doing more studies. With images placed high up on shelves. To determine if these accounts really are only fanciful memories.
I have no idea. But remain open minded until such time that it is either proven correct, or very unlikely with further in depth studies
Professor Rings full study is here
http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal of Near-Death Studies_1997-16-101-147.pdf
 
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liquid sky

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I think it suggests a little more than medical knowledge about the length of time consciousness persists after the heart stops, is longer than previously thought.Barb
The case they seemed most perplexed about, and dare I say, likely excited about. And if true, likely the most important case of the entire study

Involves the ability of consciousness. to reside separate outside of the brain. with full auditory and visual awarness
Floating high up near the ceiling. Seeing ones own body being worked on. Completely separate from that body.

Recalling accurately everything that was happening to such said body. For up to three minutes. While the brains electrical activity. would likely be at a minimum due to no or little blood flow to the brain after a cardiac arrest.

That's a little bit more than you have suggested here ?
If this case turns out to be a reality in the sense that consciousness can exist free from the brain and body, as this case seems to suggest. Then no it does not prove life after death. But it does add validity to the possibility that Near death experiencers, who claim that life after death is a real phenomena. Actually might be experiencing such a phenomena. If consciousness can actually exist free from the body and brain. It doesn't prove it Barb No
But it suggests its possible. Depending on your views and or beliefs, some might say even likely. These are some of the things I find interesting about the study. regardless of ultimate study design.
This is the part about near death experiences that takes the discussion out of how long someone can maintain a degree of consciousness or whether the brain is playing tricks on the mind. How exactly can someone recall things they could not have been physically seen from their vantage point, usually on a table? The sights explained in detail and verified by doctors/nurses that were there at the time, how are these explained by a slowly dying brain? Even a healthy brain with plenty of oxygen could not have seen these things.

I find the near death experiences of children the most interesting. They are more free from expectations than adults. When they are able to say they met relatives that they never heard of, well, something is up?

As far as time goes, it is both real and an illusion to us. It exists, but it is not always the way we experience it here on earth. Gravity influences time and as gravity decreases, time speeds up. Makes you wonder if time travel could be possible if one could speed time up enough?
 
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free at last

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This is the part about near death experiences that take the discussion out of how long someone can maintain a degree of consciousness or whether the brain is playing tricks on the mind. How exactly can someone recall things they could not have physically seen from their vantage point, usually on a table? The sights explained in detail and verified by doctors/nurses that were there at the time, how are these explained by a slowly dying brain? Even a healthy brain with plenty of oxygen could not have seen these things.

I find the near death experiences of children the most interesting. They are more free from expectations than adults. When they are able to say they met relatives that they never heard of, well, something is up?

As far as time goes, it is both real and an illusion to us. It exists, but it is not always the way we experience it here on earth. Gravity influences time and as gravity decreases, time speeds up. Makes you wonder if time travel could be possible if one could speed time up enough?
Hi Liquid Sky. Although I have read accounts over the years, I never really studied the subject very much at all. But recently got interested when I saw the aware study. And other stuff.
Your views and Jonathans and others here, are at complete odds. while I can see merit in both sides. My Mind has learned long ago. To look deeper than the average cursory glance at a subject. And to mistrust the temptation to suggest we, or anyone knows the whole answer. I don't believe that for one second. Its always safer to accept our knowledge is limited on many things that are the hardest to prove or disprove. I will continue looking at this subject. until have i learned more. At the moment I do not know enough, to have a real voice about it, Other than I find it interesting. And I remain open minded.
 
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JAM: I am so sorry to hear of your dreadful week! I homed in on the loss of your dog. I was devastated when I lost my companion of 17 years and I admire you for coping with so much.

Sending you my warmest wishes and I hope things run smoothly for you so that you can cope with all the hassles and grief you are experiencing just now.

C.G.
Thank you! Not coping so well today, guess it was bound to catch up sometime. This illness is a cruel mistress.
 

Sushi

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I think the business of 'out of body' experience is easily enough explained. When you are anaesthetised or suffering from shortage of blood to the brain in a faint it is not unusual for some sensations to disappear but others, often hearing, to remain. When I had nitrous oxide as a kid for tooth extraction I remember hearing the dentist talking but not feeling any touch or seeing anything. My guess is that if you lose proprioception and touch you fell pretty much 'out of body' because you cannot have any sense of being in a body you cannot feel. I think the thing about being on the ceiling is a bit fanciful and as far as I know nobody confirmed it.
This is interesting to me because of several "for what it is worth" experiences I had as a teenager. I'll relate one, but there were others where the situation was difference but the experience the same.

I was playing volleyball in a high school gym class. Suddenly I found that my "perception" was many feet above me, in one corner of the ceiling of the gym. I watched myself and the others from this vantage point way above, and could see the top of my head etc. It was like my perception was located in a video camera mounted in a corner of the ceiling. I was amazed to "watch myself" hit the ball and run around the court. This went on for about 5 minutes and then I returned to normal perception.

I had no beliefs about "out of body experiences" at the time. I was just amazed. This same thing happened about 5 times in teenage years. Each time I observed myself "in action" from way above. Another time I was playing soccer.

There was nothing unusual going on for me emotionally or with my health in that period.

Ideas?

Sushi
 

free at last

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This is interesting to me because of several "for what it is worth" experiences I had as a teenager. I'll relate one, but there were others where the situation was difference but the experience the same.

I was playing volleyball in a high school gym class. Suddenly I found that my "perception" was many feet above me, in one corner of the ceiling of the gym. I watched myself and the others from this vantage point way above, and could see the top of my head etc. It was like my perception was located in a video camera mounted in a corner of the ceiling. I was amazed to "watch myself" hit the ball and run around the court. This went on for about 5 minutes and then I returned to normal perception.

I had no beliefs about "out of body experiences" at the time. I was just amazed. This same thing happened about 5 times in teenage years. Each time I observed myself "in action" from way above. Another time I was playing soccer.

There was nothing unusual going on for me emotionally or with my health in that period.

Ideas?

Sushi
It does sound like a OBE. But without trauma. Normally I hear of these things with trauma. A friend of mine experienced similar to this after being knocked out. Though he was floating some distance away down the road and around the corner. were he worked. I asked him, you was knocked out. it was likely a effect of being knocked out. He said no it was not. I said why. It was probably a floating dream state. again he said no. I said how do you know that. he said because it was like NOW meaning. like being consciously awake. We all feel like a dream is real, when we are dreaming. But when we wake up. We know it was a dream. So I didn't know how to argue back with him really. Was it the same for you. Like being AWAKE
 

Lou

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free at last said, ....."And I remain open minded."

I like that, and you are sure in agreement with a pretty smart guy named C G Jung who once said, "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud."

I wonder how deeply those here who debunk NDE's out of hand and even those who offer more conventional medical explanations have looked into the vast accumulation of information and study about these extraordinary experiences. I suspect not too deeply.

Maybe it's 'beneath' them to even consider, or simply that their interests lie elsewhere. I think it's the certitude of their differing thoughts that trouble me.

One thing is for sure, they have not had this experience. Statistics of the prevalence of NDE's make it almost a sure bet someone on PR has, however.
 
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Sushi

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We know it was a dream. So I didn't know how to argue back with him really. Was it the same for you. Like being AWAKE
No, I was definitely awake and checked in with the others I was interacting with on the volleyball team. They confirmed that I was running around the court with them, hitting the ball, etc.

Sushi