First hint of 'life after death'

free at last

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Was there another thread about this study? I swear I remember replying. It may have been a long time ago. Add to that my fuzzy memory. memor, and it could be a figment of my imagination.

However, it would be interestingI to know just what types of questions were asked and if they were in any way leading the patient responses.

I guess my big gripe about this study is that the money wasted could have been put to a better used for, oh I don't know, mayby me/cfs?

I do have to admit there are certain aspects of this that are fascinating.

Apologies for being off topic.

Barb
Yes true Barb, but of course we could, and do say that about any number of studies, and or wastes of money.

I do think the questions they are trying to answer, are actually very important. And potentially very uplifting to critically ill patients.

The implications are immense. Learning that consciousness Might in some way be free from the brain. And come from a source that as of yet. we haven't even begun to properly understand.
And it doesn't have to be religious as such in my opinion. Others may disagree though.
I hope we can answer this question in the coming years. I believe the answer, is important to all of us. Ill and healthy alike.
 
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Lou

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I was fortunate to attend the 1st International Conference on Near Death Studies held in Washington DC in 1990.

My brother was dying and though I'd read much of the literature up until then I wanted to meet some of the authors and actual experiencers to find out if perhaps they were simply a band of kooks and new agers.

Those three days were some of the most enjoyable of my life. I found both the speakers (Dr. Raymond Moody and Professor Kenneth Ring, to name just two) and the experiencers to be some of the most genuine people I've met in my lifetime.

Despite the magnitude of their stories, they were, to me, utterly credible and helped me greatly in dealing with the early death of my beloved brother.

If Professor Ring hasn't proven the existence of near death experiences then he's surely come close. He has done detailed studies covering a wide range of after effects of the NDEers over an extended time frame that I find quite convincing. He's a great writer, too,btw.
 
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free at last

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Thanks Barb, I didn't realize there was another thread. I will look more there. Your comments on that thread are very interesting to me. Because it highlights a problem with the study itself. Not necessarily the phenomena.

I have just read Hips comments, of the study being negative. Which technically he's correct about. Though I am glad Hip realized there can be reasons as to why the images were not seen. As he gave some of he's own.

But there others, as I have continually mentioned. Once one looks at all the problems involved. In disproving or proving something like this.

I would suggest the jury is still very much not out.

And that with other further studies, such a large proportion of patients (78%) not being in a room where images were placed. Needs to be addressed and understood clearly.

More over, the NDE and OBE experience's seem to be around the 10% Mark, so given only 101 patients were in the final stage 2 interviews. and that 9% had recall. out of that 9% recall if we adjust for the 78% of patients not being in a room with a image. Then clearly we can see. A negative result here. May not be a negative result in terms of the phenomena existing.

It may infact be a negative result based on many other confounding factors. Not least of which. is accurate recall of a NDE experience. Accurate recall. is not the same. As low patient, NDE negative experience. As many may have forgot the experience as Barb points out about he's family member forgetting. Though on this occasion it was before unconsciousness
Interesting
 

free at last

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I was fortunate to attend the 1st International Conference on Near Death Studies held in Washington DC in 1990.

My brother was dying and though I'd read much of the literature up until then I wanted to meet some of the authors and actual experiencers to find out if perhaps they were simple a band of kooks and new agers.

Those three days were some of the most enjoyable of my life. I found both the speakers (Dr. Raymond Moody and Professor Kenneth Ring, to name just two) and the experiencers to be some of the most genuine people I've met in my lifetime.

Despite the magnitude of their stories, they were, to me, utterly credible and helped me greatly in dealing with the early death of my beloved brother.

If Professor Ring hasn't proven the existence of near death experiences then he's surely come close. He has done detailed studies covering a wide range of parameters that I find quite convincing. He's a great writer, too,btw.
Hi Lou thank you for your reply. And I know exactly what you meant about our pre conceptions of something that we don't at first understand at all. Upon education. We can often change our minds.
I will look into the people you mention. As I believe science should be the basis of these understandings not new age ideas or kooks. As you at first thought it might be.
There's a parallel here. But I am not opening that can of worms again.
Thanks for you input Lou
 
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I do think the questions they are trying to answer, are actually very important. And potentially very uplifting to critically ill patients.
How is that possibility uplifting? That we can see our loved ones after we have passed? That is the only thing I can think of, but honestly, that just freaks me out. The thought of my recently passed grandfather being able to see me in private moments is just creepy. Or my recently passed step-grandmother who hated me. Shiver. I prefer to think we just stop. It is much more comforting to me than the idea of observing life on earth, or living in any type of heaven or hell. Although, hell seems to be where all the fun people go, and I'd like to reserve a spot at the dinner table between George Carlin and Carl Sagan, across from Elizabeth Cady Stanton if it really does exist. ;)
 

free at last

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How is that possibility uplifting? That we can see our loved ones after we have passed? That is the only thing I can think of, but honestly, that just freaks me out. The thought of my recently passed grandfather being able to see me in private moments is just creepy. Or my recently passed step-grandmother who hated me. Shiver. I prefer to think we just stop. It is much more comforting to me than the idea of observing life on earth, or living in any type of heaven or hell. Although, hell seems to be where all the fun people go, and I'd like to reserve a spot at the dinner table between George Carlin and Carl Sagan, across from Elizabeth Cady Stanton if it really does exist. ;)
I mean people who miss there loved ones might be able to be with them again after death. I think the awareness described might only be a temporary transition. I am not certain of course.
 
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I mean people who miss there loved ones might be able to be with them again after death. I think the awareness described might only be a temporary transition. I am not certain of course.
I can see how that too would be comforting on the surface, but if our loved ones are "there" so are the evil people. As a Humanist this life is enough for me, if there is "more" after death I'll deal with it then. Right now I prefer to concentrate on the knowable and solving suffering that permeates this existence.

All of this is speculation; we can't be certain, and to me that is ok. Life after death would not change the way I live or feel here and now, so thinking about seems futile, but I understand how some people with certain world views would find the idea that life just ends to be very frightening. It is interesting that when people find out I'm a Humanist this is one of the topics that comes up regularly. In a religious society people have a hard time with the concept.
 

free at last

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I can see how that too would be comforting on the surface, but if our loved ones are "there" so are the evil people. As a Humanist this life is enough for me, if there is "more" after death I'll deal with it then. Right now I prefer to concentrate on the knowable and solving suffering that permeates this existence.

All of this is speculation; we can't be certain, and to me that is ok. Life after death would not change the way I live or feel here and now, so thinking about seems futile, but I understand how some people with certain world views would find the idea that life just ends to be very frightening. It is interesting that when people find out I'm a Humanist this is one of the topics that comes up regularly. In a religious society people have a hard time with the concept.
Yes of course everyone is different, with different fears, dislikes hopes dreams, expectations. ect.

If there is life after death, I believe it would likely be quite different. to physical life.

As you say. its all speculation at this point. So its hard to discuss, with any certainty or meaning.

But I am certainly interested. if NDEs and OBEs could be proven with the image test. and or other means.
Scientifically proving. The mind is part of a bigger consciousness that resides as part of the universe
is a big deal to me.
It also helps explain the paradox of being conscious now at this moment in time.

Yet time might be infinite.

So to be conscious for such a tiny time period ( our lives ) In the context of infinite time. Seems so unlikely as to be virtually impossible. The odds against it, are not just big. they are impossibly big.

So much so, it seems certain. we shouldn't really be talking now, right in this instance.

it would likely have happened long ago. Or will not happen until sometime in the future.
Such is the tiny amount of time we all have on this planet. Compared to the infinity of time.

But yet here we are discussing this, right now. Right in this instance . If the mind joins back up with the whole. Or the core consciousness after death.

Then this paradox is not a paradox anymore. Consciousness is not FINITE. But INFINATE Just like time and space. Problem solved
But of course I am speculating again. I have no idea if I am right. But it does seem a logical assumption, to this very real paradox. That a finite life strongly suggests ?
Hope I am being understood. Do not read with brain fog.
 
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Gijs

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I am 99,9% 'sure' that our consciousness is the key for understanding everything. Time doesn't exist. For me it is a fact that there is some form of bright consciousness at the moment that our brain does not function anymore. How can we explain this? That is the key question. Further than this we wil never come.
 

free at last

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I am 99,9% 'sure' that our consciousness is the key for understanding everything. Time doesn't exist. For me it is a fact that there is some form of bright consciousness at the moment that our brain does not function anymore. How can we explain this? That is the key question. Further than this we wil never come.
Not sure Time doesn't exist. Einstein predicted time dilation. And with very accurate atomic clocks, Scientists are saying they are measuring time dilation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-bad-news-if-you-own-a-penthouse-2088195.html
 
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I guess I just put all speculation of this sort in the same box with Zeus throwing lightening bolts. There is usually a more reasonable explanation. I am currently leaning towards the research that shows that consciousness is found in the electrical workings of the brain. That is wondrous enough for me. :)
 
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I think the possibility of out-of-body experiences and an afterlife is fascinating, but unknowable. I used to have the sensation of out-of-body experiences, but I now know it was probably from sleep paralysis. Even after having learned that, it doesn't take away from how real it felt.

A while back, Terry Gross on Fresh Air interviewed a critical care doctor, who specializes in resuscitation medicine:

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172495667/resuscitation-experiences-and-erasing-death
 

Lou

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I guess I just put all speculation of this sort in the same box with Zeus throwing lightening bolts. There is usually a more reasonable explanation. I am currently leaning towards the research that shows that consciousness is found in the electrical workings of the brain. That is wondrous enough for me. :)

That seems a tad condescending to all the research done --some of it by well respected scientists and medical doctors-- in the last forty years, and to the many thousands who have undergone a near death experience.

You could as easily say research showing consciousness is found in the electrical workings of the brain is going to get about as far as the research showing actors are found inside that TV set on the wall. Seems more likely to me the brain and TV set act as receivers and the source is elsewhere.

Not picking a fight here, I agree life is to be lived here and now on earth and we'll find out (or not) what comes next soon enough.
 
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That seems a tad condescending to all the research done --some of it by well respected scientists and medical doctors-- in the last forty years, and to the many thousands who have undergone a near death experience.

You could as easily say research showing consciousness is found in the electrical workings of the brain is going to get about as far as the research showing actors are found inside that TV set on the wall. Seems more likely to me the brain and TV set act as receivers and the source is elsewhere.

Not picking a fight here, I agree life is to be lived here and now on earth and we'll find out (or not) what comes next soon enough.
It isn't meant condescendingly, but like I said, there is growing evidence that it is in our brain, not a "spirit" or something "out there". My preference is to say "I don't know" until there is replicable evidence that provides a very strong foundation for a scientific theory, even if the evidence is anecdotal. At this point the science is becoming clearer and clearer that it is all in the brain, and how freaking cool is that? I think there is far more potential and wonder in that explanation.
I'm not picking a fight either, just having a conversation. Glad we are on the same page. :)
 

Lou

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It isn't meant condescendingly, but like I said, there is growing evidence that it is in our brain, not a "spirit" or something "out there". My preference is to say "I don't know" until there is replicable evidence that provides a very strong foundation for a scientific theory, even if the evidence is anecdotal. At this point the science is becoming clearer and clearer that it is all in the brain, and how freaking cool is that? I think there is far more potential and wonder in that explanation.
I'm not picking a fight either, just having a conversation. Glad we are on the same page. :)

Not very cool:), I like a mystery.
 

MeSci

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How is that possibility uplifting? That we can see our loved ones after we have passed? That is the only thing I can think of, but honestly, that just freaks me out. The thought of my recently passed grandfather being able to see me in private moments is just creepy. Or my recently passed step-grandmother who hated me.
It doesn't sound as though they were loved ones!