Fatigue May Be the Wrong Term

Mary

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My 'fatigue' is neurological. My legs can manage a multi-hr ride, but my mental energy to make myself do that without great need just isn't there. If there was dire need, I could probably ride all day (butt soreness aside). So no, ME's 'fatigue' is not simply a lack of ATP.
@Wishful - not to take this thread off-topic, but you might find this thread interesting - it talks about ME/CFS "central" fatigue and the brain: Novel Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS) Brain Stimulation Clinical Trial Begins - Health Rising
TMS can also be used to study the brain, and that’s how it’s mostly been used in ME/CFS. Several ME/CFS studies in the early to mid 2000s found reduced motor cortex excitability. That suggested that at least part of the fatigue in ME/CFS was “central”; i.e. it emanated from the brain, and that ME/CFS brains may be having difficulty activating the muscles during exercise.
I know it says "activating muscles" but it also mentions that the origin is in the brain.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Instead I like to break it down into two separate symptoms which often occur together:
  1. Paresis (muscle weakness)
  2. Cognitive dysfunction (brain fog)
Doctors seem to grasp these concepts better than "fatigue"...

agree...

Today- one hour moving files and saving them into different locations on the computer, then they aren't saved correctly, and there is something wrong.

I cannot keep my eye lids open. Literally. Can't hold them open. The muscles there: nothing is available for those muscles.

Unless its nerves- nerves won' fire to lift the muscles.

So thats one hour of me thinking.
 

Wishful

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Would you be willing to consider applying the term at the Mitochondrial level?

The problem is: there are PWME who don't have stamina problems, and thus probably don't have mitochondrial problems. Some researchers might select patients who have mito dysfunction, but that doesn't mean that we all have that. I believe that the mito dysfunction in many PWME is a common downstream effect of ME. It's possible that you could treat the mito dysfunction but still suffer from other ME symptoms.
 

Wishful

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it talks about ME/CFS "central" fatigue and the brain:

I agree that it's more like central fatigue than regular fatigue, but I'm not sure that it's the same as the central fatigue caused by other diseases.

I think 'sickness behaviour' is a better match for some of our ME symptoms. Our constellation of symptoms may differ a bit from sickness behaviour caused by a virus (it probably varies with the virus too), but still matches up in some ways. I remember my first awareness of my ME felt exactly like a flu was coming on.
 

Mary

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I agree that it's more like central fatigue than regular fatigue, but I'm not sure that it's the same as the central fatigue caused by other diseases.
Right - it may or may not be the same. I was just thinking that the trial discussed in the article which is supposed to help with issues of central fatigue (originating in the brain) might hold some promise for you and others with similar issues - well, possibly for all ME/CFS sufferers!
 

Wishful

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might hold some promise for you and others with similar issues

From the article and the replies, I get the impression that the treatments don't have a lasting benefit. I see it as more of an opportunity to learn more about ME, which might lead to treatments further on, magnetic stimulation or otherwise. Even proving that stimulating a certain part of the brain temporarily reduced an ME symptoms would be an important breakthrough.
 

Rufous McKinney

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I think 'sickness behaviour' is a better match for some of our ME symptoms

I think this is a major aspect of the entire matter...and I don' t mean behaviors we chose and have control over- its innate- to not go forth when you feel this awful. That its not safe. Because your insides know what your not capable of. I'm frequently simply unable to eat much, that has been the case for many years- the Anorexia of Sickness Behavior accounts for that in my case most likely.

But today- to overshare-

I did one hour of moving files in the laptop, and converting files etc. For one hour.

I then literally was unable to physcially hold my eye lids open. Just could not. And that lasted about an hour, but after I laid down and chilled a bit (ate food)...I seem to now: be holding them open again.

So either 1) ran out of the energy needed to fire the eyelid muscles; or 2) neurologically , the instructions to hold open the eye lids aren't being delivered.

Other ideas?___________________________
 

wabi-sabi

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I think 'sickness behaviour' is a better match for some of our ME symptoms.
I never like the term sickness behavior because to me it smacks of CBT and the idea that our behavior rather than our disease was the problem. As if the behavior was a choice we were making that needed to be corrected like wayward children. Talking about someone's behavior always makes it feel to me as though we are blaming them for making a bad choice, when really we are all behaving in the ways that best manage our illness, instead of if we'd just stop acting sick we'd stop being sick.
 

Wishful

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I never like the term sickness behavior because to me it smacks of CBT and the idea that our behavior rather than our disease was the problem.

I don't have a problem with it because the behaviour is definitely not under our control. The whole point of it is that this change in neurological state overrides what we might choose to do, and we can't change that with 'happy thoughts'. There are various studies showing animal subjects working less to stay alive (stops swimming) and being less able to solve problems. It certainly would help if we had some measurable factors of sickness behaviour: reduced nerve signals, cerebral waste product buildup, or whatever.

"Sickness neurological dysfunction" maybe?
 

Hope4

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My two cents:

Post-exertion disability

For me, the post-exertion situation is one of being and feeling debilitized. Depending on the type and severity of the exertion and additional stressors, the disability can include multiple areas of function, both voluntary and involuntary.

It is not only physical exertion that causes the damage, and being unable to function/disabled.

Other know stressors which contribute to, and/or exacerbate the damage of overexerting physically:

- heat: hot room or outside temp
- things in the spectrum of unkindness/cruelty from others (whether ignorant, intentionally malevolent, or ..., it has its effects)
- level/state of wellbeing or lack thereof at the time of the over-exertion
- hunger
- state of blood sugar: if low or falling, this causes very unpleasant symptoms
- overall tiredness/worn-outness in the way non-ME/CFS people would describe it
- environmental toxins/chemicals, such as artifical fragrances and cleaning supplies,
- too many people around

Some of these stressors may or may not be understood as being part of the constellation? of ME/CFS, but I can say they are concurrent in my experience.

If something causes one to be unable to function normally, to be unable to breathe, think, move, see/hear/smell/sense/touch/taste etc., this is to be disabled.
 
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pattismith

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One concept I prefer to fatigue is "sickness behaviour", it is a brain disorder triggered by infection and inflammation and induced by cytokines.
It is based on the neuro-immune theory.
It is very very similar to the CFS/ME, the main difference may be the duration.

Here a nice article about the history of this neuro-immune theory;
It's written by psychologists, it shows some of them are real scientists...

2020; 11: 607269.
Published online 2020 Dec 3. doi: 10.3389/fpsyt.2020.607269

The Legacy of Sickness Behaviors
Keith W. Kelley1,2,3,* and Stephen Kent4,5

Abstract
Systemic infections of all types lead to a syndrome known as sickness behaviors. Changes in the behavior of febrile humans and animals formed the original basis for this concept. Body temperature is behaviorally regulated in both endotherms and ectotherms.

However, infections cause other changes in body functions, including sleep disruption, anorexia, cognitive and memory deficits and disorientation.

The brain mediates this entire cluster of symptoms, even though most major infections occur outside the brain.

The true importance of sickness behaviors is not the numerous discoveries of symptoms that affect all of us when we get sick. Instead, the legacy of 30 years of research in sickness behaviors is that it established the physiologic importance of reciprocal communication systems between the immune system and the brain.

This conceptual advance remains in its infancy.

about SB symptoms later in the article:

These include symptoms such as inflammatory pain, a variety of mental health disorders and learning and memory deficits.


Prior to the beginning of the twenty-first century, naysayers argued that the immune and central nervous systems do not dialogue with one another.

They advocated maintaining the distinct disciplines of immunology and neuroscience, with little to no communication between the two.

But emerging data demanded a more innovative approach.

Physiology, which is a truly integrative science that spans reciprocal regulatory control systems among all organ systems, was not seriously considered.

The major reasons for the arguments of skeptics were the existence of the blood-brain-barrier (BBB), lack of CNS lymphoid vessels and paucity of antigen-presenting cells in the brain.

The scientific community now accepts that the BBB is much more than a barrier, acting as a true interface between the blood and brain [BBI; (20)].

Secondly, a century of science was turned upside down by the discoveries of Louveau et al. (21) and Aspelund et al. (22) who showed convincing histological evidence and now the functional importance of the meningeal lymphatic system [reviewed by (23)].

Finally, it is well-documented that microglia, monocytes and dendritic cells in the brain parenchyma can express major histocompatibility antigens that present antigen to T lymphocytes [reviewed in (24)].

And of course the discovery and identification of 37 cytokines, their receptors and multiple chemokines ushered in a entirely new way of thinking about immune-brain networks.

As shown by the early experiments on sickness behaviors, systemic cytokines alert the brain that insults such as an infection or trauma have occurred in the periphery. Indeed, the brain can synthesize and express several cytokines.

Many other fascinating discoveries have provided entirely new insights into brain-communication systems. They range from links between clinical depression and systemic inflammation [see reviews by (25, 26)] to the emerging roles of neurotransmitters such as acetylcholine and catecholamines in the development of bioelectronic medicine for treatment of diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn's disease [reviewed in (27)].

As such, nearly all of the naysayers have disappeared. The discovery of sickness behaviors in all forms established the powerful role of communication between the immune system and the brain. This is the true legacy of sickness behaviors.
 

Rufous McKinney

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Some of these stressors may or may not be understood as being part of the constellation? of ME/CFS, but I can say they are concurrent in my experience.

That list: is incredibly familiar.......

things in the spectrum of unkindness/cruelty from others (whether ignorant, intentionally malevolent, or ..., it has its effects)

this state: incredibly frustrating....when your a sensitive person and you see a world with alot of clods. (and of course, all those wonderful and good people and things are also there)

I am a bit into energetics/ chinese medicine, yin yang that type of thing. Some things on this list I believe could be affecting some of us, due to issues of Boundary Permeability.

Its sort of like our body and being has its defenses occupied and directed to internal repairs and so externaliities can penetrate and get into us and - it causes physical damage.

So thats a- woo woo explanation for some of this. But there may be something up there.

In chinese medicine, there is this concept of layers to the body and something getting- into a deeper layer. Thats also: a permeability issue.
 

Iknovate

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@Rufous McKinney

I think a lot about being so 'preoccupied' with survival that there's nothing left (a huge reason for avoiding conversations even - except in writing when you have time to think and rethink, and only for things deemed necessary).

So otherwise how does one create a force shield to avoid penetration?
 

Rufous McKinney

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So otherwise how does one create a force shield to avoid penetration?

Thats worth further pondering....

Well, energetically- one approach is to literally ( not literally) put on a symbolic coat of protection.

I like the notion that we can visualize better armor. Or deflection shields. Some people might meditate on certain colors which- are shielding or protective.

I have to do more screening and a bit more not attending to things in order to- reduce some of this permeability.

And I don' t like that, especially, as I'm a bit into Experiential. If Im here to experience, why should I limit it?

The roller coaster ride is getting pretty intense, and I don't have alot of controls. There is an intense roller coaster ride with this illness, emotionally. Maybe some don't feel it, I sure do.
 

Iknovate

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@Rufous McKinney
My problem is there's nearly nothing left to cut out before becoming invisible.

The only emotion left is despondency, not for dying but for living.

And the need to self-isolate takes a toll. I really crave interaction but have no energy to do so.
 
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Tired vs Tired

I’ve worked all my life, from mowing grass and shoveling snow as a kid, to working 10 hour days, 4 days a week at my regular job, then laying tile Fri, Sat and Sunday. Yes, I got tired, but it was a ‘good’ tired. I’m sure those who are into exercise know that feeling – too tired to move, yet feeling a kind of exhilaration as a result.

This ain’t that.

ME is not being tired, not even feeling sleepy, but a kind of exhaustion, of a bone-deep lack of energy to the point that even speaking is too much of an effort to do.
 
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