Excess acetylcholine & methylation

[drmullin30]

I take 20-30 mg of transdermal methylcobalamin and 5-10 mg of adenosylcobalamin per day. I also have double MTR and MTRR SNPs. The MTR is an upregulation so I waste a lot of b12 converting homocysteine to SAMe. I also have SNPs in MMACB (methylmalonic acid), TCN (transcobalamin) and intrinsic factor pathways.

@jwat87 thanks for the link. B2 has a very short half life in the body, roughly an hour and a half, so I need to take mine in divided doses throughout the day. I take about 40 mg per day of R5P. B2 is also essential for b12 to work inside the cells as is folate, iodine, selenium and molybdenum for some people. I also have double homozygous MAO-A SNPs so that increases my overall needs.

Lithium is also important for b12 transport and many people have noticed a huge improvement in b12 deficiency from supplementing lithium. I have noticed this myself since starting low dose lithium.

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 – many more questions for you. First, on mfolate/mB12 supplementation. Do you take all of the B vits or just B12 and B2? I have read that the B’s compete with each other. I take a pretty healthy dose of B6 too – regular and P5P.

I assume your transdermal mB12 is a prescription? Transdermal would probably be a good thing for me, since I have gut issues (that I’m finally getting serious about trying to correct). So I wish it were available without prescription, but I doubt it is.

Interesting that B2 has a short half life. Did not know that. I should start doing divided doses. And I probably should just drop the regular B2 and do just R5P. I have in my mind that I read once that some people do better on the basic form, so I’ve been taking both – just in case. I think I only read that from one questionable source, so should probably let it go.

I do take iodine, selenium, molybdenum and lithium (7 mg/day).

When I think back on my history of taking mfolate I can’t say for sure that I took adequate amounts (or at times, any) mB12 to go with it, and I don’t know how much B2 I was taking either. Sure wish I had kept better notes.

I’m thinking I should try replacing my folinic acid with a small dose of mfolate. Like start with 500 mcg mfolate and keep my mB12 at 1,000 mcg and then give it some time. I probably should wait to make any changes to these supplements, since I just started a new gut health protocol. But, hey, I’m a very impatient person.

You mentioned the MAO-A SNPs and you seem to be very informed on SNPs. I’m +/+ for MAO A R297R, which seems to be the only one most experts pay attention to. As I understand it, this means a downregulation of the MAO-A gene and means slower breakdown of neurotransmitters in the brain and tyramine in the gut. Do I have that right?
I have tried, but failed to understand what my other MAOA SNPs mean. These are all of them, from 23andMe. Any thoughts?
MAOA R297R/G492T/T941G T TT +/+
MAOA T1011C/1460C C CC +/+
MAOA T89113C C CC +/+

I was looking through my old notes on MAOA and found this one, which may have put the idea in my head that mfolate was probably not a good thing for me. It is from SNpedia.com and I think is based on
writings of Yasko.
“Mutations are associated with mood swings, aggressive behavior, depression, anxiety, OCD and intolerance of methylfolate (which increases neurotransmitters that can't be broken down by MAO A, causing feelings of overstimulation).”

Thanks for taking the time to help me.

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @Cnew2this, my b12 is not a prescription. I use these b12 oils: https://b12oils.com/index.htm and I make my own with this: https://aor.ca/product/methyl-b12-15mg/ and rubbing alcohol and aloe vera gel. Each squirt of b12 oils is roughly 2-3mg of b12 with a supposed absorption rate of approx 50-80%. My b12 solution is 15 mg of lozenge dissolved and mixed with aloe and applied.

I have no idea what the absorption rate is but judging from morning start up relief it's about the same as three squirts of the oil per tablet unless I do a second one in the evening after my workout and then there seems to be a lot more red left on my skin. I hope this means I'm well saturated so that I'm reaching full central nervous saturation of both b12 and folate.

I missed the bus on B2 for a long time until I realized I needed it to make the folate work and later I learned you needed it to make the b12 work so now that one is a priority and I take this once a day in the morning: https://www.thorne.com/products/dp/riboflavin-5-phosphate and I get more in the advanced b so I get about 40 mg. If I take more than that, the potassium need is too huge.

I've eventually learned that to keep certain symptoms at bay for now I need about 30mg a day of folate down from 45 mg month or so ago. That's the benefit of 5 months of low oxalates. I avoid folic acid and folinic acid like the plague they stop my methylation dead, especially in my neurology.

I think I take all of the B's or most of them. I use the AOR advanced B https://aor.ca/product/advanced-b-complex/

I used to need a lot more B6 before I started higher dose folate and b12 and detoxed a lot of copper and other crap. I have really messed up serotonin synthesis and recycling so that makes my B6 needs high so I still take almost 100 mg a day of P5P and I take 300 mg a day of 5-htp. I used to take up to 200 mg of P5P in a day to stave of anxiety and depression. As you already know, I also have large choline needs for bile production and ACh synthesis.

You seem to know more about the MAOA SNP than me. Mine is an upregulation which is another problem for my serotonin and makes me tend towards depression and fatigue. I know that certain methyl donors or amino acids seem to trigger it in another way and make me really panicky or angry and OCD but since I got methylation going it hasn't been a problem. I can't handle any tyrosine or glutamine or aspartates but that could by COMT and GAD SNPs.

In your case maybe it's the opposite and too much methylation in the wrong place and you could get stopped up with NTs. It's like I have a huge drain and your is blocked. Both cases are disfunction. I definitely noticed an increase in all of my NTs when I started b12 and folate even small amounts.

Very early on I also tried high dose niacin (many embarrassing flushes it had very weird timing for me) and very high dose inositol to try and fight the OCD and panic but both stopped working entirely. Glycine was also useful for anxiety for a while especially when I was taking NAC but I was still tired and anxious much of the time and they stopped working too eventually.

In the beginning with methylated b vitamins, most of my reactions were bad and usually resulted in more or different symptoms from detox or NT imbalance. but at least the depression and panic were gone but I have made many mistakes.

I also have ACAT SNPs which apparently mean I need more adenosylcobalamin and choline and I have gut issues galore. Celiac, oxalates, leaky gut, diarrhea poor bile production IBS blah blah blah! sorry TMI! I'm not sure I'm remembering everything right. I've attached Yasko's book but lot's of folks on here don't agree with her but she has helped me galore. Especially her insights about aluminum and mercury and glutamate and metals.

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 – thank you so much for taking the time to share all of this. So much good info here. So many questions …

That is pretty genius what you are doing with B12 and I am going to try it. I have been using some topical Mg lately and feel it has helped tight/cramping muscle problems that were not helped by Mg supplements. From what I have read, when taking Mg topically one doesn’t have to worry about overdosing because the body will absorb only what it needs. I wonder if that applies to B12 too? I may continue the 1,000 mcg oral B12 I have been taking and add some topical with your method.

You said that with large doses of R5P the potassium need is huge. How hugh? I have been taking a small dose of potassium powder. Probably not nearly enough. I just ran out of the Douglas R5P that I have been taking and started on the Thorne you mentioned (mine is 36.5 mg/cap). I am thinking maybe I will go with a full cap am and ½ cap later in the day, given your half life comment.

I am thinking I do need to try mfolate again, this time making sure I get plenty of mB12 to go with it. That quote from SNpedia (about MAOA and mfolate) that I shared with you I think is an outlier. Of all the research I did on MAOA I didn’t find any other sources stating that. I was contemplating whether to add mfolate to my folinic acid or replace. I definitely picked up on your comment that for you folinic acid interferes with methylation. Think I will stop taking it to give mfolate a real chance.

I have been taking the “B Minus” B complex from Seeking Health (Dr Ben Lynch) because it has no folate or B12, giving me the flexibility to add my own. I’m almost out of it, so may look into the AOR you take. I have some of Lynch’s mfolate only supplement (5-methyltetra… 1000 mcg folate ), so I can start off slow just taking ½ cap and work my way up. I have been taking Jarrow mB12. That may not be a quality source (?).

You mentioned oxalates, and I too have been wondering about those recently. From what I have read, I do think they are worth paying attention to, but right now I have so many dietary restrictions that I just can’t deal with another one. I have numerous food allergies, fear of gluten, lectins (Plant Paradox), excitotoxins (Yasko) and migraine triggers, just to name a few. And now this gut health protocol I just started (theguthealthprotocol, Herron) is soooo restrictive I’m not sure I am going to make it. Giving up sugar was hard enough, but he also says “no grains”. I have gone very low grain, and even that is true torture for me. But after only a week my poop is better than it has been in 20 years (20 years of chronic loose). Sorry – TMI.

So on Yasko – a little over 2 years ago I discovered her work and spent hundreds of hours devouring her online material (most of which I have forgotten due to my degenerating brain). Yet I had not read the book you attached, and I certainly will. Thank you. I did a Hair Analysis and Urine Amino Acid Test and got Yasko’s comments on them, and took her recommended supplements (which was quite expensive) for a couple months, but then got frustrated that there was really no way to follow up on her brief comments and some things didn’t make sense. The big one for me was that my HA showed Li off the charts high, yet the recommendation was to supplement with Li, because of “Li dumping” and keep rechecking levels with a HA. This just didn’t sit well in my brain. Incidentally, I had my doctor check my Li blood level and it was really low. So, I’ve been supplementing with Li ever since then. I haven’t checked it again, either way, but do wonder if the supplements have made any difference.

On MAOA SNPs – even after much effort a couple years ago to understand what the various SNPs mean, I don’t feel informed at all. I read soooo much about the MAOA, since of the genes that are important to Yasko, the MAOA R297R is my only homozygous SNP, so it seemed like the one I should pay most attention to. I had to really work at deciding for sure that my results of +/+ for this gene indicated a downregulation. You said that your MAOA is an upregulation. Which gene is that? Or are you -/- for R297R?
And then, despite great efforts, I never could decide what my two other +/+ MAOA SNPs meant. Whether those mutations were upregulations that might somewhat cancel out my R297R? It’s so frustrating, especially when my brain just doesn’t work like it used to.

A few months ago I started thinking about my MAOA again because I am experiencing such dramatic mood/energy fluctuations on almost a daily basis, and it seemed that maybe my downregulated MAOA could be an explanation. I still think that is a possibility, or it also may just be an elusive CFS thing. I had a revelation recently that my fluctuations were made worse by physical exertion. I would have a good day, starting with good energy/mood, so I would go for a hike. Sometimes I would start to physically crash toward the end of the hike, or afterward and my mood would crash with it. Next day would be terrible – mood, energy, a strange feeling of weakness. Next day not terrible but not great. Next day, start the cycle over again. I did get some good advice on PEM from my Introduction Forum post and picked up some more good tips on the PEM forum. So thankfully my crashes, and muscle problems are much improved lately.

I have experimented with limiting exercise for several days in a row, and this does seem to mean less dramatic fluctuations, but doesn’t resolve the problem either. What you shared about your symptoms sure does register with me too. I would have to say my worst problem now is anxiety, which just seems to be getting worse (I think COVID is not helping). I have a nagging feeling that some supplement I am taking is making that worse. SAMe is the most likely suspect, but I have been taking such a tiny bit of it.

Back to MAOA - I read an interesting thread on this website a few months ago (haven’t found it again yet). It was some very smart people arguing about whether the R297R mutation meant anything at all. I eventually became overwhelmed and went into a phase where I just didn’t have the energy to think about this stuff anymore. But now, you have inspired me to work up the energy to try again. So THANK YOU FOR THAT!

Well, I had better sign off. Sorry to ramble. This post probably turned into a serious TMI situation. I hope I’m not draining your energy with all of my questions, if you have energy issues. Thanks again for your time.

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @Cnew2this here's my MAO gene report from livewello is below. It's different with men because the gene is on the X chromosome so we only have one (hemizygous) and it looks like I'm also a + for that one called the warrior gene (R279R) which is a down regulation like yours but the very next one on the list (rs1137070) is an upregulation. As you can see it's very messed up so I'm not sure what the overall effect is upregulation or down. It seems to go both ways in my case depending on unknown factors resulting in a lot of severe anxiety/panic, mood swings, depression, OCD, a terrible temper and severe serotonin dysregulation.

I guess my way of dealing with this was to make sure all the other methylation around NTs was working and hope that those measure would help with this since the activity of this enzyme is also dependent on methylation. Yasko says: "Lack of BH4 due to aluminum toxicity, increased levels of ammonia, and/or MTHFR A1298C mutations all impact serotonin levels. I'm homozygous for 1298 and I have several other MTHFR SNPs so I deal with this through high dose folate and b12 per Fredd's protocol and it seems to work. My anger, anxiety and OCD are in full remission these days as is my ammonia problem and I believe my aluminum toxicity is also much lower now.

I can't tolerate any SAMe it always made me very anxious.

On potassium, because of the advanced protocol, I already need about 4 grams a day of supplemental potassium. If I raise my B2 any more my potassium needs can reach up to 10 grams a day.

On diet, mine is ridiculous but absolutely crucial to my recovery. I eat an alcohol free, grain free, sugar free, dairy free, nut free, low oxalate paleo ketogenic diet I only use extra virgin olive and coconut oils for cooking and I eat mayonnaise. It's been hard but the difference in the way I feel makes it easy to stay motivated. The hardest part is staying ketogenic because I love fruit.

 

[Cnew2this]

Hi @drmullin30 - It sounds like we basically have the same personality, except that you are far more disciplined. It’s great that you have found a plan that gives you such positive results that you want to stay on it. I so need a positive results breakthrough in my life right now. I’m really hoping that if I can stick with the gut protocol I just started, and some tweaks to my supplements for better methylation, I will eventually see an improvement in my health that will at least be a good start. And if I could see even small improvement with my anger/irritability, cognitive problems, and anxiety issues, it would be like winning the lottery. The first two have probably been a part of my personality my entire life, and the cognitive started at age 40 (20 years ago). But the anxiety is new to me, and weird. I did stop the SAMe completely – maybe that will help.

I have known for 20 years or so that I have gut problems, but have never really gotten serious about it until now. I’m disgusted with myself when I look back at how poor my diet has been. I cleaned it up quite a bit in the last 5 years, but have still been consuming a lot of sugar and carbs. I use them for a serotonin boost, and I think my body doesn’t even know how to produce serotonin anymore without that boost. Sure feels that way right now.

Thanks for sharing that portion of your report. It’s funny that I had read previously that males only have one copy of the MAOA and all of that, but what I read was “blah, blah, blah”, because it didn’t apply to me. A glimpse of the self-centered nature of my personality I guess.

Does your LiveWello report provide a narrative on all of your SNPs that tells you whether that SNP is an upregulation or down? Or are you getting that from other reading? If the former, then I’m interested in running my data through LiveWello, if it isn’t terribly expensive. Did you pay a one time fee for your report, or is it a monthly subscription? I googled it, but at a glance it isn’t clear to me whether I could just pay for a report without joining which would then be a monthly fee.

I first ran my dna through 23andMe in 2015, and I then had Genetic Genie process it for me (which I think was $10) and I got a report covering only 26 SNPs (probably influenced by what Yasko was using), and I had to read the narrative for each to get an idea of which mutations resulted in an upregulation and which were down. When I ran the 23andMe data through NRI (Yasko) in 2018, I got an almost identical table of 20 SNPs, but with no narrative for each of them to explain whether the mutations were up or down regulations.

I tried to find a free source that would give a dumbed down (so I could understand it) explanation for all of my SNPs, but never found that, and then decided that Yasko probably knew what she was doing by focusing on only a few, so I decided to let it go.

A note in the MAOA discussion in my Genetic Genie report is what called to my attention the fact that one has to be careful when reading reports to know whether the mutation is an upregulation or down, as different labs, or report makers, may report differently. I got the impression from other reading that there is disagreement among labs on how to report MAOA mutations.
This is from my GG report:
MAOA
Note: Genetic Genie reports the wild type as the defective variant as doctors have clinically observed that patients with methylation problems (especially those of Autism) often have trouble breaking down neurotransmitters. The high activity version of MAO-A (which is represented as -/-) can contribute to major depressive disorder. The significance of this SNP should be interpreted with caution.

I need to go back and read the basics about understanding dna reports, because I may have some real gaps in my knowledge. When I first got interested in this I probably skipped a lot of important reading in my impatience to get to the bottom line of my results.

Have you read Dirty Genes (Lynch)? My first reading on MTHFR mutations was on his website, and that was where I learned about 23andMe. I was disappointed that in his book he decided to take the approach of gene activity being fast or slow, regardless of dna, because of environmental factors, etc. But I still think the book has a lot of good info on what people experience with up/down regulation and how to support what you’ve got. I only have a paper copy, so can’t share it with you.

The Yasko book you shared with me looks really good. I think I may buy a paper copy. I’m old fashioned – I like to read books that way. I think she is still one of the top leaders in the field and I tend to think that in her early days as a researcher she was all about educating people to help them, and sharing all that she knew in her books. Now, the material on her website is mostly about selling supplements. Can’t blame her though. She deserves to make some money off of her hard earned knowledge.

My posts are getting longer and longer . . . Sorry about that.

 

[Cnew2this]

Hi again @drmullin30 Well I looked into buying that Yasko book you shared with me on Amazon, and it started at $125 for a used one. So I ordered her other early book, Genetic Bypass, for $20. Then out of curiosity I googled Pathways to Recovery to see if it was that expensive everywhere, and found it on Thriftbooks for only $30. It may be missing most of the pages at that price, but worth a try. So, I'm starting a Yasko library.

I checked out the B12Oils. Spendy stuff isn’t it? Trying to decide whether to do that or try your DIY method. What country do they ship from? The website is kind of mysterious.

You mentioned Fredd’s protocol a couple times and I didn’t know who that was, so I googled it and got PR threads, which took me to more threads . . . What a wealth of information. This PR website is so awesome! Thanks for pointing me in good directions.

 

[drmullin30]

Hello again @Cnew2this,

Does your LiveWello report provide a narrative on all of your SNPs that tells you whether that SNP is an upregulation or down? Or are you getting that from other reading?

Livewello provides some information and provides links to other resources for SNPs etc. It wasn't terribly expensive when I joined and it was a one time fee. It's a great resource for getting at genetic information not covered by other engines.

I haven't read dirty genes, I find Ben Lynch lacking in certain understanding of SNPs outside of the folate system and he doesn't seem to understand the primacy of B12 and correcting metabolism around that should be the first concern of anyone with methylation disfunction.

I tried to find a free source that would give a dumbed down (so I could understand it) explanation for all of my SNPs,

The best one I found for this is Nutrahacker but it's not free. I think it's $20-50. https://www.nutrahacker.com/

The b12 oils are a bit pricey but for most people one squirt per day is usually enough so I'm a bit of a special case. They ship from Australia and they like to build a personal relationship so when you order you get an email from the owner making sure you understand the product and the basics of b12 deficiency.

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 - As always, thanks for the reply and the nutrahacker link.

I’m on page 6/182 of a great Freddd thread that started in 2009. It’s a little challenging since I haven’t found a place where Freddd’s entire protocol and tips are summarized. But I’m piecing it together from this 2009 thread.

I’m feeling very hopeful at this point that Freddd’s is going to be a good approach for me. I’m so thankful that you replied to my first post on this forum (about acetylcholine I guess?) and then patiently answered my flood of questions and eventually got me pointed in a good direction.

A few questions if you have time:

1—Freddd recommends L-Carnitine Fumarate. Do you have any thoughts on that?

2—Do you monitor your potassium need from symptoms or are you doing it with blood work?

3—On mB12 and adB12, at what point do you think one exhausts the ability to absorb enough using sublingual lozenges? I’m guessing you moved on to the oil when you reached a high dose. I will probably keep increasing both m and ad slowly, so I may be months away from needing oil – or I may be able to get enough orally (?). Or do you see other advantages to the B12oil?

It is reassuring that you have had a positive experience with the B12Oil company, and gives me more confidence to go ahead and order some. Think I will get m and ad separately so I can control doses. After I finish those I will probably be in a better position to try your DIY method because I will be able to tell how much I am absorbing.

Thank you sooooo much for your time.

 

[drmullin30]

@Cnew2this here's a great resource for the Fredd protocol from another PR user. I use Acetyl-L-carnitine with a lot of success so I've never tried fumarate.

I monitor potassium through symptoms only, fatigue, heart palpitations and muscle cramps or spasms. It's a very safe supplement as long as you take lots of water so I make sure I get enough to keep symptoms at bay. Everybody should be getting at least 5 grams per day which is hard to do from food unless you eat really healthy. Most people are already potassium deficient.

Once I got up to more than 30 mg per day of methyl folate I needed to switch to transdermal to get the necessary dosage of b12 without breaking the bank. It was taking sometimes up to 6-9 of the 15 mg lozenges per day to keep b12 deficiency symptoms at bay at those dosages so it was getting really expensive and not good for the teeth.

 

[Cnew2this]

Thanks @drmullin30 That "my understanding" doc is just what I needed. I'm going to order some oil. Even if it gets on a slow boat, I should be ok with orals until it arrives.

 

[jwat87]

update: I may have figured something out.

I think the methylfolate is not good for me. I started taking 200mcg folinic acid, B2, and hydroxyB12 (swallowed). Folinic and vegetable folate in its own will cause folate trap, and need B2 + B12 to lift. So far this is working without causing symptoms of excess choline. I did have to take some niacinamide thought, as I felt I was overmethylating. Still avoiding methy donors, creatine, and theanine.

When I was taking methylfolate, I only needed B2 to make it work, and B12 was too much. I think the methylfolate is just too much for my system, even in tiny amounts. I think it was somehow driving up acetylcholine production, especially if I added any B12. Maybe it was driving my neurotransmitters too high, then my brain halts production in response.

 

[Cnew2this]

Interesting @jwat87 and here are some of my thoughts. I have been meaning to give @drmullin30 an update on my progress too.

As I mentioned before, I have drove myself crazy over the last couple years trying to decide if I was undermethylated or over, and whether acetylcholine was a problem for me. And, I too was convinced that I could not take mfolate, after trying for many years, and that my B12 needed to be mostly hydroxoB12 and just a little mB12.

But @drmullin30 turned me on to the Freddd protocol and I have been reading about it and trying it for a week. I’m convinced that this is a good direction for me, but I know already that I can’t tolerate much mfolate, or at least will need to increase it very slowly. My body seems to welcome lots of mB12 (I’m up to 4,000 mcg/day), but it doesn’t take much mfolate to bring on a continuous headache. I can handle 200 mcg per day, maybe 400 mcg, but more than that is trouble. So my plan is to just hold mfolate at a low level for now and keep increasing mB12, (and a little adB12) very slowly.

I’m glad that drmullin30 was persistent because it finally made me realize is that I hadn’t given mfolate a fair chance in the past because I didn’t take enough active B12 to go with it. When I look back on my past attempts to supplement mfolate, it was a tragic comedy of errors. Huge doses of mfolate (Deplin) with no B12 (or maybe a little cyanoB12), then steered toward folinic acid instead of mfolate and hydroxoB12 instead of mB12 from reading Lynch and Yasko. I am a vegetarian (30+ years) except for fish, and in fact am actually a vegan who eats fish. It shouldn’t be shocking that I was B12 deficient.

A critical discovery that I made from drmullin30 is that I was taking way too much B2 and way too little potassium. I’m sure that I was headed for real trouble if I hadn’t made that course correction.

I had been taking 50 mg standard B2 and 30 mg R5P for a while and only supplementing about 200 mg of potassium and probably not a lot from my diet. Then I changed brands of R5P for a higher dose, so I was up to 60 mg R5P and 50 mg B2, with no increase my potassium. So I would take all of this B2/R5P in the morning then go for a hike. I think my crashes while hiking were due to insufficient potassium. I have now stopped the standard B2 and am down to 35 mg R5P plus lots of potassium throughout the day, and am seeing a dramatic improvement in symptoms I now recognize as potassium deficiency. I’ve also cut back on my B3 based on Freddd’s observations about B3 and potassium. So this was a critical (possibly lifesaving) discovery for me, and I’m so thankful to @drmullin30 for steering me in the right direction.

So, that’s my update and food for thought on what seems to be working for me. But I know we are all different, which makes finding the right answers such a challenge.

 

[drmullin30]

I know already that I can’t tolerate much mfolate, or at least will need to increase it very slowly. My body seems to welcome lots of mB12 (I’m up to 4,000 mcg/day), but it doesn’t take much mfolate to bring on a continuous headache.

As folate rises, and BH4 rises, in my case, I started to detox a lot of aluminum because this requires BH4 (which you were likely deficient) and so you have likely stored a lot of toxic aluminum which will start to move and cause headaches. This is one of the primary symptoms of aluminum toxicity and detox. Here are a couple of links for reference:
https://www.aitinstitute.org/aluminum_toxicity.htm#Detoxing_Aluminum_
https://arltma.com/aluminum-toxicity/

I'm really glad that I was able to offer any help. I owe a lot to this community so any kind of pay back makes me happy.

 

[Cnew2this]

Hi @drmullin30. Your thoughts on aluminum detox are probably right on for me. About 12 years ago I did a heavy metals analysis using chelation. Many were high, but aluminum was sky high. I did several IV chelation treatments but decided it was too hard on my body. I think a slow chelation with the Fred protocol sounds much better. I will check out those links you provided and may give my Freddd thread reading a rest for a few days and dive into the Yasko book you shared with me, that appears to address BH4 and aluminum.

So I’m still fussing about which brand of supplements to take. I now have an assortment of brands of mB12 (Seeking Health, Solgar, and Jarrow) and for mfolate I have some Metafolin, by Solgar and (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate stand-alone by Jarrow and in a couple different B complexes.

The Seeking Health Active B is actually 80% mB12 and 20% adenoB12, so that is convenient. But I have never seen a recommendation in the Freddd threads for Seeking Health B’s. Not sure what to make of that.

I had been taking the Seeking Health B complexes, but became concerned that the Niacin was pretty high, so bought some Jarrow B Right. But then, upon further reading in Freddd threads, I get the impression that the B Right may have an undesirable form of Niacin for the Protocol (Nicotinic Acid).
I looked at the AOR Advanced that you mentioned, but the Niacin was pretty high and that scared me off. Also, they don’t specify what form the Niacin is (Niacin (Vitamin B3) 118 mg).

AND, I now notice that the B2 in B Right is the basic form, not R5P. I do have some Douglas R5P to take on the side, but am not sure what to think of the basic form vs R5P – how doses compare and effectiveness.
So, any thoughts to offer on supplements?

Seeking Health B Minus
Thiamin (as thiamine hydrochloride) 25 mg
Riboflavin (as riboflavin-5'-phosphate sodium) 20 mg
Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate and niacin) 50 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxal-5'-phosphate) 20 mg
Biotin 500 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 150 mg

Seeking Health B Plus
Thiamin (as thiamine hydrochloride) 25 mg
Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5'-phosphate sodium) 20 mg
Niacin (79% as inositol hexanicotinate and 21% as niacin) 95 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxal 5'-phosphate) 20 mg 1,176%
Folate [50% as Quatrefolic® (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate, glucosamine salt
and 50% as calcium folinate] 680 mcg DFE (400 mcg)
Vitamin B12 (80% as MECOBALACTIVE® methylcobalamin and 20% as adenosylcobalamin) 50 mcg
Biotin 750 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 125 mg
Choline (as choline bitartrate) 50 mg

Jarrow B Right
Vitamin B1 (as Thiamin Mononitrate) 25 mg
Vitamin B2 (as Riboflavin) 25 mg
Niacin (as Nicotinic Acid) 25 mg
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine HCl) 25 mg
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate) 10 mg
Folate (as Quatrefolic® (6S)-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate Glucosamine Salt) 400 mcg DFE
Vitamin B12 (as Methylcocbalamin) 100 mcg
Biotin 300 mcg
Vitamin B5 (as Calcium D-Pantothenate) 100 mg
Choline (as Choline Bitartrate) 50 mg
Pantethine (Vitamin B5 Derivative) 25 mg
Inositol 50 mg

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 – forgot to mention that I did order some of the B12oils, but they haven’t arrived yet and my thought is that I might be better off stabilizing on oral mB12 and adenoB12 first then switch to the oils after I get up to higher doses. Does that sound right?

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @Cnew2this I didn't start the b12 oils/transdermal application until I was up to really high oral doses of b12 over 60 mg/day so yes, I would ramp up the oral intake first.

If you went from your current dosage to the one in the oils, you would likely have some difficulty with resulting symptoms but everyone is individual. Some people following the advanced methylation protocol were able to ramp up really fast, I wasn't one of those. Once you're at a spot where higher oral doses don't cause additional symptoms e.g. potassium deficiency then I would try the oils.

I'll take a look at your supplements in detail soon but the AOR B vitamin has niacin in the inositol hexanicotinate form (same as Seeking health), which doesn't hinder methylation. I would eliminate nicotinic acid (in the Jarrow B Right) unless it's absolutely necessary for you as that will stop or slow methylation.

Also, the rule of thumb from Fredd was that you should be taking at least as much b12 as folate if not more especially when using it orally as the absorption of b12 is relatively low. This is due to folate induced b12 deficiency and can be dangerous and cause neuropathy. At your current dosages it may not be a risk but as you raise your dosage this will become important.

 

[drmullin30]

@Cnew2this - since you're starting with Freddd's protocol I've attached a PDF of his symptoms groupings for easy reference. You'll want to familiarize yourself with this as they help track progress and problems.

 

[jwat87]

Active B2 (R5P/FMN) seems to work better in me than plain B2. B2 works for me at first, but seems to lose effectiveness after a few days, I assume it's depleting some co-factor. I'm wondering, are there any cofactors I can take that will increase the effectiveness of regular B2? I can always just take R5P, but I'm wondering if there's a missing cofactor that would make B2 work better.

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 – sorry to keep bugging you. But that’s the price you pay for being so helpful.
I looked at the AOR Advanced B Complex again, on the AOR website, and the label shows: Niacin (Vitamin B3) 118 mg. Doesn’t that mean it is nicotinic acid, and not a good form? Maybe they have recently changed their formula? I also see that part of the folate is folic acid (333 mcg). That’s not good, right?

What do you think of this one?
Douglas B Complex with Metafolin
Thiamin (Vitamin B1, as Thiamine HCl) 50 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2, Riboflavin-5-Phosphate) 20 mg
Niacin (Vitamin B3, as Niacinamide) 50 mg
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) 20 mg
Folate (as L-methylfolate, Metafolin®) 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamin) 500 mcg
Biotin 300 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5, as d-calcium pantothenate) 50 mg
Intrinsic Factor (from porcine) 20 mg

Good question from @jwat87 too on cofactors for B2. I'm being careful now that I don't take too much B2, because I think that is what was causing my potassium deficiency. I'm also wanting to keep the Niacin dose of my B Complex pretty low for that reason.

Thanks for the Symptoms sheet. Good stuff! As always, thanks for your time.