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Equilibrant

Sinclair

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@Adlyfrost many thanks for your kind reply and for sharing your experience;)!

In my experience, glutamine by itself had no effect on equilibrant. In fact, equilibrant is one of the few herbals that worked regardless of what I took or ate.
I have the feeling that E works better for me after a small meal or with empty stomach. I have had less forehead pain since I left glutamine a week ago...

However now I realize it would have been better for me to take 1/16th of a pill everyday for a year than to go up that fast. Got too trigger-happy with it and paid dearly for it!
The dosage issue is so complex and different for different people! Most suggest to go slow, but you also have some stories of people having good results at high starting doses (Dr. Chia's son, for instance)....I really don't know what to do....

I completed 2 weeks on E. I have been able to tritrate to 2 + 2 daily tablets, but I still need to supplement with Se in order to avoid forehead - headache pain. I have had 2 very good 1/2 days, the third day after I increased to 1 - 1 and the third day after I increased to 2 - 1. But short after I felt as my body was requesting for a higher dose. When I increased to 2 - 2 I had the second bad day as before, but the third day was simply 'normal' good, not 'very good'....thus I have posponed since then any additional increase in dosage. But I was planning for the next weekend to go to 3 - 2 or to 2 - 3 ....... an additional motive for suspending new increases is that from my country it takes 45 days to receive the pills from the laboratory in CA-US, and -as any other drug-dependent as I feel myself now on E.- I am afraid of not having my daily tablets....Astragalus+Se is the closest subsitute I have at home......

Besides suspending Glutamine, another change I recently made was a new trial on Lysine, now at 3000 mg/daily (I had tried it before at a lower dose)....I am IgG+ for EBV and CMV and had chickenpox (VZV) 20 years ago, so I think it might help...

In my experience, homemade chicken broth first thing in morning on empty stomach with a mostly liquid diet through the day best for fixing leaky gut.
For more than two years now my first thing in the morning has been levothyroxine for ThyCA treatment :rolleyes: .....I like broth, I think I am going to give it a more serious and constant try....any receipes available?...mom is 300 miles away :thumbdown:.....and what do you mean buy 'mostly liquid diet' ....... for how long?....I have not been tested but I am quite sure that leaky gut is an issue for me, thus an effective plan for it will certainly help.

@Sinclair : I wish you all the best with equilibrant!
Many thanks for your wishes and I am really glad you are doing well....in 'remission' as you mention....reading stories like yours is really hopeful....btw...did I read somewhere you were writing a book on your experience?o_O Wish to read it!

Best!

Sinclair
 

Sinclair

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Instead of increasing E, I reduced my dose to 2-1. I've been doing better for 3 days and plan to increase slowly again by 1/2 pills, starting by the end of this week. I am certainly responding. I feel better than before E. Still with a lot of symptoms of course, but recovered to 50-60% functionality if I take all my supps and don't overdo.....

These seem very good news...now my questions are:
- why am I responding to a certain extent? Does it necessarily mean an enterovirus plays a major role in my condition?
- can I reasonably expect better results in the long term? The range of my mood changes has increased: when I feel good, I turn very hopeful and start to plan my new life....but as soon I start to feel bad I become very sad and hopeless.

My worst and scariest symptoms are cognitive and mental. I started a new thread with questions about them.

Best wishes!
 
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Adlyfrost

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I am glad to hear you are slowing down on the equilibrant Sinclair. I really hope it works for you.

I took it when I was really, really sick with an acute viral infection that resembled 'hand, foot and mouth disease'- not sure of a diagnosis because I cannot afford a good CFS doctor. (The only way to be 100% of enteroviral infection is autopsy of the stomach or 'hit or miss' positive antibodies in blood that most primary doctors won't test for).

I had had a 'hand foot and mouth disease'-like rash around my mouth and face, on and off for a few years. But last year I was under a lot of stress and I got this throat infection (culture was negative for strep) that was so awful! Felt like I had giant golf ball back in throat. I itched also all over my hands and feet.

Anyway, I couldn't get rid of it. The itching was driving me insane and I couldn't do anything but sleep and my throat hurt really bad. I had a low fever, (worse than my usual low-fevers I get all the time) and SEVERE all-over body pain too, so painful I couldn't move one shoulder. I was desperate. Even though it gave me a reaction previously, I turned to equilibrant. I took 1/16- 1 pill per day in the morning. After a week I noticed some strange things happening:

Morning I woke up depressed until I took equilibrant. After I took it I became extremely sleepy. I would be forced to take a nap for a couple of hours after dosing, where I would sweat perfusley, dream deeply and my stomach would gurgle and relax.

I always woke up from these naps in the best of moods. Elated in fact! Also no pain. It was the feeling after you have had a fever all night but the fever finally broke and you wake up with your garments soaked with sweat. :redface: It was the feeling I wanted that I never thought possible with this horrible illness!!! I don't ever remember being happier! :)Manic almost.:nerd: Appetite also returned. This feeling would only last a short time though. The rest of the day I would move very slow and by night I be horribly depressed again. :depressed: And appetite gone. These manic/depressive moods got more extreme the longer I took it.

After a few weeks of this, I would start waking up around 3am, then 2am, then 1 am. Eventually I could not sleep thorough the night. I tried taking E earlier in the morning. I also tried going to 1/16 of a tab. It seemed the longer I took it, the less I needed. 1/16th was doing as much as a whole tablet was 2 weeks before. But still I would wake up at 1am and with sharp stomach pains. I had to stop. Then I turned to broth.
 
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Sinclair

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@Adlyfrost, many thanks for sharing your experience and the information on chicken broth.

I think my break point on E is 2 - 1, less than that and symptoms increase badly.

In order to self-complicate things I ate breath one day...:rolleyes:...

I am currently back on 2 - 1, planning to increase slowly and back to strict diet, I'll include the chicken broth and report thereafter.

Many thanks for your kind help.

Best Wishes.
 
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I am glad to hear you are slowing down on the equilibrant Sinclair. I really hope it works for you.

I took it when I was really, really sick with an acute viral infection that resembled 'hand, foot and mouth disease'- not sure of a diagnosis because I cannot afford a good CFS doctor. (The only way to be 100% of enteroviral infection is autopsy of the stomach or 'hit or miss' positive antibodies in blood that most primary doctors won't test for).

I had had a 'hand foot and mouth disease'-like rash around my mouth and face, on and off for a few years. But last year I was under a lot of stress and I got this throat infection (culture was negative for strep) that was so awful! Felt like I had giant golf ball back in throat. I itched also all over my hands and feet.

Anyway, I couldn't get rid of it. The itching was driving me insane and I couldn't do anything but sleep and my throat hurt really bad. I had a low fever, (worse than my usual low-fevers I get all the time) and SEVERE all-over body pain too, so painful I couldn't move one shoulder. I was desperate. Even though it gave me a reaction previously, I turned to equilibrant. I took 1/16- 1 pill per day in the morning. After a week I noticed some strange things happening:

Morning I woke up depressed until I took equilibrant. After I took it I became extremely sleepy. I would be forced to take a nap for a couple of hours after dosing, where I would sweat perfusley, dream deeply and my stomach would gurgle and relax.

I always woke up from these naps in the best of moods. Elated in fact! Also no pain. It was the feeling after you have had a fever all night but the fever finally broke and you wake up with your garments soaked with sweat. :redface: It was the feeling I wanted that I never thought possible with this horrible illness!!! I don't ever remember being happier! :)Manic almost.:nerd: Appetite also returned. This feeling would only last a short time though. The rest of the day I would move very slow and by night I be horribly depressed again. :depressed: And appetite gone. These manic/depressive moods got more extreme the longer I took it.

After a few weeks of this, I would start waking up around 3am, then 2am, then 1 am. Eventually I could not sleep thorough the night. I tried taking E earlier in the morning. I also tried going to 1/16 of a tab. It seemed the longer I took it, the less I needed. 1/16th was doing as much as a whole tablet was 2 weeks before. But still I would wake up at 1am and with sharp stomach pains. I had to stop. Then I turned to broth.
Hi @Adlyfrost

I just read through your posts which make me worry a little about you. Is there a decent GP in your area to at least monitor you while you are on the Oxymatrine/Equlibriant?

The manic type states you are going through can some times lead to further complications. Have you asked anyone here on this forum, if they know of a decent GP in your area?
 

halcyon

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I have a question for anyone that might be able to answer. I tried a few times to get the ARUP enterovirus test, and had a hell of a time getting it done. Labcorp just would not run things through there, no matter how my doctor specified the order.
I had similar problems. It says everywhere that you can just order them from ARUP or LabCorp but that wasn't enough information. I finally got a LabCorp requisition form from Dr. Chia and it included a note instructing the technician to use the following test codes and to send the specimen to the "reference lab", i.e. ARUP:
  • 816869 - Coxsackie B Virus Abs
  • 823361 - Echovirus (Frozen) Serum Ab Panel
I haven't received the results yet so I can't confirm they actually sent my blood to ARUP, but the technician had no problem pulling up those test codes and didn't balk when I said they needed to be sent elsewhere.
 

Adlyfrost

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Thanks @end . Very kind of you to be so concerned! :) I was on Equilibrant LAST year and for obvious reasons had to stop. These 'manic' side-effects were only one of my many on it and some side effects lingered long after I got off it. Powerful stuff! Really respect it. I am on different anti-virals now (all herbal) Equilibrant side-effects long gone now thank God.

I agree- it would be helpful to have a doc and be monitored by lab tests but just started grad school and am too poor to afford a doc.

What type of complications? Were you thinking of any specific ones that I should look out for- (just in case I try it again someday)? When I was on a higher dose 1.5 years ago I really thought I was going to die on that stuff one night because I was so hyper and caffeinated from it (even though I hadn't taken any caffeine). I wrote about that experience in another thread.
 
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Sinclair

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@Adlyfrost

I want to report I had good results with chicken stock, since the day I add it to my current protocol. Still with symptoms of course but my functionality moved from 40% to 65%.
  1. Caveat: the same day I started with chicken stock I had had what seemed to be a herx reaction due – I assume – to starting antibiotics the same day. I have also been on equilibrant for 40 days and it has helped to go from 20-25% functionality to 40-45%.


    Many Thanks!
 

Adlyfrost

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@Adlyfrost

I want to report I had good results with chicken stock, since the day I add it to my current protocol. Still with symptoms of course but my functionality moved from 40% to 65%.
  1. Caveat: the same day I started with chicken stock I had had what seemed to be a herx reaction due – I assume – to starting antibiotics the same day. I have also been on equilibrant for 40 days and it has helped to go from 20-25% functionality to 40-45%.
Awesome!!! Yes a MILD herx is normal for me too- a slight tired nauseous feeling. Shouldn't last. After a couple days I really feel the benefits and it goes away completely.

*If you add fresh garlic you can get a REALLY bad herx/strong immune response! Did that last winter- I was really sick so I thought I would kick it up a notch. Knocked me out for several hours, really started to sweat! Could really feel my immune system kicking but! But left me so tired and foggy. When it gets too much, balancing it with ginger, green tea or something mildly th2 stimulating can help offset that effect. I am going to be doing the garlic-broth on the weekends this winter for preventative.

It is also high in glycine- which detoxifies the liver. Always wondered if that could account for the herx.

**Not sure if you were referring to boxed store-bought chicken stock or homemade. There is a difference. (see link)
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...metimes-achieves-full-remission.13463/page-13

So glad the equilibrant is working also! :)
 

Sinclair

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Awesome!!! Yes a MILD herx is normal for me too- a slight tired nauseous feeling. Shouldn't last. After a couple days I really feel the benefits and it goes away completely.

*If you add fresh garlic you can get a REALLY bad herx/strong immune response! Did that last winter- I was really sick so I thought I would kick it up a notch. Knocked me out for several hours, really started to sweat! Could really feel my immune system kicking but! But left me so tired and foggy. When it gets too much, balancing it with ginger, green tea or something mildly th2 stimulating can help offset that effect. I am going to be doing the garlic-broth on the weekends this winter for preventative.

It is also high in glycine- which detoxifies the liver. Always wondered if that could account for the herx.

**Not sure if you were referring to boxed store-bought chicken stock or homemade. There is a difference. (see link)
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...metimes-achieves-full-remission.13463/page-13

So glad the equilibrant is working also! :)
It was homemade. Two 1/4 chicken bones (rest of food previously eaten) cooked with a half onion, some garlic, a carrot and celery. I boiled it for 4 hours. I started sippering at 3 hours. I stored in the refrigerator some for the next three days. Stored portions seem not as powerful, and it is less quantity than what I drank the first day.

Regarding E, I have been on 2 - 1.5 for 10 days or so.

Many Thanks for the tip, and for the hope that is back:)!
 

halcyon

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Good find Adly. Depending on how strong an inhibitor it is that could be a definite concern for certain people taking medications with it.

I wonder if a lot of the side effects people talk about aren't really just the main effect, that is the release of interferon. Interferon will make you feel like crap, mentally and physically. If Equilibrant doesn't make you feel sick, it's probably not working.
 

Adlyfrost

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Good find Adly. Depending on how strong an inhibitor it is that could be a definite concern for certain people taking medications with it.

I wonder if a lot of the side effects people talk about aren't really just the main effect, that is the release of interferon. Interferon will make you feel like crap, mentally and physically. If Equilibrant doesn't make you feel sick, it's probably not working.
I think if Equilibrant is making one feel sick they are taking too much. Slightly flu-ish perhaps: it should definitely illicit an immune response. But improvement of symptoms should also follow.

I was wondering if anyone knew if shrubby sephora was broken down by the CY3PA4 enzyme? When I was having side effects I felt as if I couldn't get it out of my system- like it built up in my system. Couldn't find any info online.
 
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Thanks @end . Very kind of you to be so concerned! :) I was on Equilibrant LAST year and for obvious reasons had to stop. These 'manic' side-effects were only one of my many on it and some side effects lingered long after I got off it. Powerful stuff! Really respect it. I am on different anti-virals now (all herbal) Equilibrant side-effects long gone now thank God.

I agree- it would be helpful to have a doc and be monitored by lab tests but just started grad school and am too poor to afford a doc.

What type of complications? Were you thinking of any specific ones that I should look out for- (just in case I try it again someday)? When I was on a higher dose 1.5 years ago I really thought I was going to die on that stuff one night because I was so hyper and caffeinated from it (even though I hadn't taken any caffeine). I wrote about that experience in another thread.
Hi @Aldyfrost

I was referring to the 'blur' or 'disbelief' as in 'complications' that tend to be created in relation to 'psychological' type symptoms can sometimes inflict

See how you go with the alternate botanicals, most have issues with Equlibriant. Some times even low and slow does not quite make things tolerable

KDM in the past has been said to use Quercetin for Enterovirus which is also associated with minimal side effects. I have used it and found it quite effective

Good luck
 

Adlyfrost

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Hi @Aldyfrost

I was referring to the 'blur' or 'disbelief' as in 'complications' that tend to be created in relation to 'psychological' type symptoms can sometimes inflict

See how you go with the alternate botanicals, most have issues with Equlibriant. Some times even low and slow does not quite make things tolerable

KDM in the past has been said to use Quercetin for Enterovirus which is also associated with minimal side effects. I have used it and found it quite effective

Good luck
Yes I am on quercetin- also olive leaf, oregano oil, liposomal C, lysine, d-ribose (w/coq10), Mag, licorice, garlic: this w/chicken broth is my morning antiviral regimen. As long as I take them in the morning, pretty well tolerated, knock on wood.
 

Sinclair

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Just some ideas...

- Onions are a powerful source of quercetin, thus since they are a part of the chicken stock / bone broths, they are probably part of the explanation of the good results. At Hip's website, an 'onion cure' is proposed and discussed by some.

- Equilibrant has Vit. D, even though at a very low dose. In my case I am Vit. D intolerant (bad effects with doses over 2000 iU and even with sunlight exposure, trying to find out the reason for this)... thus this is something to consider...

- I have new anecdotal evidence that my body reacts immediatly for good or bad with supplements and medications. I tried to reduce Equilibrant intake in the morning dosage from 2 to 1 pill and I experienced severe bad effects, particularly headaches and the worst brain fog I had ever had, the same day I tried this, thus, in the afternoon I had to complement the normal dosage in order to get back to my 'normal' 2 - 1.5 current dose, and things came back to 'normal ME'.

These 'immediate' reactions seem unusual in the PWME community, thus I'll start a thread about it...

Kind Regards,
Sinclair
 

Sinclair

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New anecdotal evidence:

On Saturday I added to my current 2 - 1.5 Equilbrant dose, 1000 mg of Astragalus in the evening.

Got flu-like symptoms. I never got these, so I assume this as a good sign. (Less Th2, more Th1 maybe?). ME fatigue and pain have diminished in some of these days

What to do now? I completed 4 days with added Astragalus, do I pulse (in order to check whether flu-like symptoms disappear) or do I keep the intake (in order to have ME improvements after some days - as expected in an Equilibrant increase in dosage)?

My rationale behind adding Astragalus this time (which I had experienced before Equilibrant up to 2000 mg/day with less evident flu-like symptoms) is to avoid Vit D component of an increase dosage of Equilibrant, until I find out why am I Vit D intolerant. However, now, after a few days I face Dr. Cheney's view on pulsating immunomodulators, which Astragalus is vs. Dr. Chia's view on progressively incrementing Equilibrant doses.

Thanks for your views!
 

halcyon

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I believe Cheney's main rationale for pulsing is to avoid tolerance. I'm really not sure if tolerance to these compounds has actually been shown to occur or if he's just worried about it possibly occurring. If I'm reading the abstract to this paper right, the effects of astragalus continued even 7 days after ingestion so even if you did take a week off it sounds like it will still keep working for you.