Enteroviruses - revisited

[Hip]

Do you think that taking sodium selenite in the morning and then antioxidants at night (so as not to detoxiify the anti viral effects) would be a good game plan?

Not sure. I am not sure whether antioxidants would be good or bad when taken with sodium selenite.

The study I quoted above (this one) says that the antiviral effects of sodium selenite comes from its interaction with thiols (which are sulfur compounds). The chemical reaction between sodium selenite and thiols is:ᐞ

Sodium selenite + thiol => hydrogen selenide + several selenium-containing compounds + reactive oxygen species.

It is the hydrogen selenide produced in this reaction that is responsible for the sodium selenite toxicity. So I presume it is ether the hydrogen selenide, the selenium-containing compounds, or the reactive oxygen species produced in this reaction that has the antiviral effects.

In the case of sodium selenite's anti-cancer effects, I believe it is the hydrogen selenide produced by taking sodium selenite that kills the cancer cells.

 

[knackers323]

Very interesting thread. Any more news on this?

 

[knackers323]

Would high dose iv vitamin c be effective against enterovirus?

 

[end]

IVI C @ 60grams+ has been helpful in some with EV(myself included)however it is cost prohibitive. Around $200 per infusion.

 

[JaimeS]

Woowwww @Hip ! This is awesome.

 

[JES]

Some new enterovirus inhibitors have been found in a recent screening. These drugs all seem to inhibit CVB3, so they could have some potential in CFS/ME treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4862474/

 

[halcyon]

Some new enterovirus inhibitors have been found in a recent screening. These drugs all seem to inhibit CVB3, so they could have some potential in CFS/ME treatment.

Thanks for posting this. It would be great if there was a drug already on the shelf that could have some effect.

When I last spoke with Dr. Chia a few months back, he mentioned that two drugs companies had purchased rights to some candidate antienteroviral compounds, one that works on the 2C protein, and one that works on the 3D polymerase. He also mentioned some collaboration with the Rega Institute in Belgium, who is also working on identifying potential antienteroviral compounds.

 

[Hip]

I am really interested now in killing whatever enteroviruses are still present. My tests showed CVA but not CVB, but I do have confirmed EV7. Your post has been a great resource to find the few agents that attack EV7, one that I take is high dose Inosine, and one being Serum Albumin. Is this supplement-able? I appreciate the updating nature of that post, I check back every so often and update my supplementation as needed. Cheers mate.

That EV7, if it is an active infection, is more likely to be driving you ME/CFS than the CVAs.

Looking at the list of anti-enteroviral compounds in this post earlier in this thread, there are a number of echovirus antiviral compounds (supplements and drugs).

Ideally you want an antiviral compound where the study has specifically shown that it works for your echovirus 7 (EV7). However, it is also possible that the compounds which fight other echoviruses may also work for EV7.

And ideally, you's want an antiviral which is potent (these are marked in red in the list).

In the list, you see that zeolite (which is a supplement people use for detoxification) targets EV7, but unfortunately zeolite is not absorbed into the body; it remains in the digestive tract. But since Dr Chia's research showed ME/CFS patients have enterovirus infections in the gut, zeolite may be useful at least for fighting the gut portion of your EV7 infection.

Albumin in the blood fights EV7, but I am not sure if there are any easy ways to increase this (and it is found at relatively high levels in the blood anyway, with albumin accounting for 55% of the total protein in blood plasma). Egg white powder (found in supermarkets) contains a lot of ovalbumin, which is similar to albumin; but if you ate egg white powder, the ovalbumin would be broken down by the digestion, and would not reach the blood.

Amantadine might be worth considering, as this also sometimes offers general benefits for ME/CFS; but note that Dr David Bell found amantadine 25 mg to 50 mg daily helps ME/CFS, but says higher doses can exacerbate symptoms. Ref: 1


Have you looked at Dr Chia's standard treatment for enterovirus in ME/CFS patients, which is oxymatrine?

 

[eljefe19]

Yes I take high dose Oxymatrine as well as the other supplements included in Equilibrant. I was under the assumption these were probably working more on Microglia and Th2>1 shifting than any direct antiviral effect. Also Inosine 2g a day. Inosine has the double benefit of being anti EV7 and also a th2>1 shifter.

I'm considering Amantadine. Do you think I should consider one of the replication inhibitors used by Dr Chia as well? Amantadine would be an interesting addition considering Amulsipride 12.5mg, Memantine, and Bromantane, which all have dopaminergic effects (currently taking all 3).

 

[halcyon]

Amantadine might be worth considering, as this also sometimes offers general benefits for ME/CFS; but note that Dr David Bell found amantadine 25 mg to 50 mg daily helps ME/CFS, but says higher doses can exacerbate symptoms. Ref: 1

Chia does 100mg BID. I've been taking this dosage for a while with no noticeable side effects.

 

[Hip]

I was under the assumption these were probably working more on Microglia and Th2>1 shifting than any direct antiviral effect.

Yes that's right, oxymatrine is thought to boost the antiviral Th1 arm of the immune system, but is not directly antiviral itself.

Inosine has the double benefit of being anti EV7 and also a th2>1 shifter.

I did not know that. Would you have a weblink for the antiviral effect against EV7? I see in this study they say that isoprinosine (which pretty much the same as inosine in its effects) has a "slight activity in tissue cultures" against EV11.

Really though, you want antivirals where studies say it has "potent antiviral activity" or words to that effect. Because even antivirals described as potent often only have a small effect on ME/CFS.



By the way, I have just ordered some Laferobion® interferon suppositories from this pharmacy, as we discussed in this post, which should be here in a week or so. I am going to guinea pig myself by trying these out. It's quite possible that they will dramatically ramp up depression levels, in which case I will have to stop my tests.

I bought one box of 5 x 150,000 IU suppositories, which I am going to try to cut into tenths or even smaller initially, thereby taking a dose of 15,000 IU. Hopefully at this dose level there will not be any depression.

I also bought a box of the 5 x 1 million IU suppositories, just in case the 150,000 IU ones are not strong enough. The Laferobion brand are the cheapest, approx $10 per box of five suppositories.

I will post up my results on the forum in a month or so, when I have had time to test it.

Chia does 100mg BID. I've been taking this dosage for a while with no noticeable side effects.

Unfortunately for me, amantadine worsens my sound sensitivity, so I use doses in the 25 mg range once daily, when I do take amantadine. It probably does not have much antiviral effect at that dose level, but I find it does have mood boosting effects.


By the way, @halcyon, do you know why Dr Chia does not routinely use ribavirin (I have never heard of any of his patients taking this)? In one of Dr Chia's studies he got good results with ribavirin for his enterovirus ME/CFS patients. The problem was that on discontinuation of this antiviral, the patients relapsed within a few weeks. But I am wondering why you couldn't just take ribavirin indefinitely, if it helps.

 

[halcyon]

By the way, I have just ordered some Laferobion® interferon suppositories from this pharmacy, as we discussed in this post, which should be here in a week or so. I am going to guinea pig myself by trying these out. It's quite possible that they will dramatically ramp up depression levels, in which case I will have to stop my tests.

Let us know how you do on this. As time goes on I'm getting more desperate and the idea of trying interferon alpha is becoming more appealing.

By the way, @halcyon, do you know why Dr Chia does not routinely use ribavirin (I have never heard of any of his patients taking this)? In one of Dr Chia's studies he got good results with ribavirin for his enterovirus ME/CFS patients. The problem was that on discontinuation of this antiviral, the patients relapsed within a few weeks. But I am wondering why you couldn't just take ribavirin indefinitely, if it helps.

I don't know for sure, but I believe ribavirin is quite a bit more toxic than the other antivirals he uses, so that might be why.

 

[Hip]

Let us know how you do on this. As time goes on I'm getting more desperate and the idea of trying interferon alpha is becoming more appealing.

I will do. I am not the ideal guinea pig, though, because my enteroviral infection seemed to create a lot of anhedonia and depression in me (even before I developed ME/CFS from this virus), and I read that those who already have some depression are more likely to suffer from the significant depression side effect during interferon treatment.

But for ME/CFS patients without comorbid depression, the depression side effect of interferon I think will be less likely to occur.

What I hope to be able to do is increase my interferon suppository dose level to just below the threshold where I can feel increased depression kicks in, and then keep it at that dose level for some time, to see if my ME/CFS symptoms slowly improve. If my ME/CFS does improve, then I will consider taking low dose interferon indefinitely, as we know from Dr Chia's interferon treatment studies that all his ME/CFS patients who were in remission relapsed once they stopped the treatment.

 

[eljefe19]

I will do. I am not the ideal guinea pig, though, because my enteroviral infection seemed to create a lot of anhedonia and depression in me (even before I developed ME/CFS from this virus), and I read that those who already have some depression are more likely to suffer from the significant depression side effect during interferon treatment.

But for ME/CFS patients without comorbid depression, the depression side effect of interferon I think will be less likely to occur.

What I hope to be able to do is increase my interferon suppository dose level to just below the threshold where I can feel increased depression kicks in, and then keep it at that dose level for some time, to see if my ME/CFS symptoms slowly improve. If my ME/CFS does improve, then I will consider taking low dose interferon indefinitely, as we know from Dr Chia's interferon treatment studies that all his ME/CFS patients who were in remission relapsed once they stopped the treatment.

@Hip its great that you are going forward with the Interferon. Similar to you, my illness started with anhedonia and depression at very young ages. It's still a concern, however I take an incredibly robust anti-depressant stack as it is.
I am willing to guinea pig with you, though I may wait to hear your initial results first.

I thought that I had read that Inosine was anti EV7 on your anti-viral post, but I guess I was mistaken. Still, Inosine, Oxymatrine, and Astragalus high doses for all, seems to have significantly shifted me from Th2 where I was constantly feeling ill, to Th1 where now its more of the fatigue, myalgia, anxiety, and the associated depressive side effects of Th1 dominance. This is why I now take 5mg Escitalopram, 25mg Clomiprimine, 25mg Tianeptine Sulfate, 30mg Mirtazapine, 12.5mg Amisulpride, 200mg Bromantane, 15mg Memantine, and a few other agents. I will type up my entire regimen one day. I take Etizolam as I've said for breakthrough anxiety. I also take a host of supplements to protect my GABAgeric system. I'm pretty well protected from depression although it is a concern. I may want to add LDN to my stack, but LDN has been implicated in worsening outcomes on GCMAF, something I'm taking to lower Nagalese and boost my immune system.

On the subject of what to pair interferon with, I was wondering the same thing about Ribavirin. Assuming that drug is too harsh for us to take, we would probably want to pair the Interferon with 25mg-50mg Amantadine, and a different replication inhibitor. Epivir was found ineffective against EV7, so for myself I'm not quite sure what that replication inhibitor would be just yet. I will attempt to put some brain power into this today. I am ordering Amantadine, should be here in 1-2 weeks.

I'm excited hip, we really have done a ton of work and we deserve a nice remission. If you become depressed, I'm here to talk mate. I always enjoy our pharmacological discussions!

Jefe

 

[eljefe19]

@Hip one other thing hip, my doctor discussed Artesunate with me once, and seeing that it activates NRF2 is intriguing to me, along with its other beneficial effects. Have you ever tried this one? Any idea where I may get it at a fair price?

 

[Hip]

If you become depressed, I'm here to talk mate. I always enjoy our pharmacological discussions!

Thanks @eljefe19.

my doctor discussed Artesunate with me once, and seeing that it activates NRF2 is intriguing to me, along with its other beneficial effects. Have you ever tried this one? Any idea where I may get it at a fair price?

I have tried the herbal extract artemisinin, from which the semi-synthetic drug artesunate derives; though by weight, artemisinin is 10 times weaker than artesunate (but you can then take 10 times as much). But artemisinin has poor bioavailability, so I think you are better off with artesunate.

Artesunate has antiviral effects against EBV, HHV-6, cytomegalovirus and HSV-1, but not against enteroviruses (when I tested for herpes families viruses some years ago, I had high titers for cytomegalovirus and HSV-1).

You can buy 60 x 50 mg of artesunate capsules as Hepasunate.



Did I mention that I found high dose selenium had very noticeable positive effects on my fatigue and brain fog symptoms, possibly as a result of its antiviral effects against coxsackievirus B. See this thread. That is something you can consider trying. I found it takes around 10 days of taking high dose selenium for the benefits to start to manifest.



Another supplement that may have a good anti-coxsackievirus B effect is N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG), which I originally started taking because it is an effect anti-anxiety treatment (this thread describes the anti-anxiety action of NAG).

NAG inhibits the Th17 immune response (see here), and the Th17 response does bad things when it comes to coxsackievirus B infections: this study suggests Th17 actually promotes coxsackievirus B3 replication, and so does this study and this study.

Furthermore, according to this study, the Th17 immune response may play a pathogenic role in chronic persistent infections, by promoting the survival of virus-infected cells (whereas the immune system really needs to be destroying such cells).

NAG also has anti-autoimmune effects, and autoimmunity is very likely involved in ME/CFS, POTS, orthostatic hypotension and enterovirus infections.

(Note that NAG is not advised for those with Borrelia infections; and since the Th17 immune response is important in Staphylococcus and Candida infections, NAG should be used with caution in these cases.)



Several years ago, my ME/CFS was getting worse and worse: I had moderate ME/CFS, but was beginning to slide into the severe ME/CFS category (the mild, moderate and severe ME/CFS categories are described here).

Then in summer 2012, I just happened to start taking both NAG 1400 mg daily and high dose selenium 400 mcg daily (both have to be on an empty stomach), and within a couple of months, I saw major improvements in my ME/CFS, and as I continued taking these supplements, within 6 months or so, my ME/CFS although still moderate, was almost nudging into the mild category. So I almost made a one category improvement in ME/CFS.

And this is where I am today: moderate ME/CFS, but nudging at mild ME/CFS.

 

[eljefe19]

@Hip well probably unsurprisingly I am familiar with both of those threads, and also with Dr Chias inclusion of Selenium in EQ. Your thread referred me to non yeast Selenium which I take at 400mcg, 45 minutes after taking 700mg NAG. I don't know if I have borellia infections but I like that NAG is also protective of mucus lining of the intestines. I have IBS-D, and after hearing researcher Chris Armstrong talk here about CFS resembling Sepsis and Starvation, if am aiming to heal my leaky gut as much as possible to prevent the slow mild Sepsis that occurs in PWME.

 

[eljefe19]

What else inhibits the Th17 state?

 

[Hip]

@Hip well probably unsurprisingly I am familiar with both of those threads, and also with Dr Chias inclusion of Selenium in EQ. Your thread referred me to non yeast Selenium which I take at 400mcg, 45 minutes after taking 700mg NAG. I don't know if I have borellia infections but I like that NAG is also protective of mucus lining of the intestines. I have IBS-D, and after hearing researcher Chris Armstrong talk here about CFS resembling Sepsis and Starvation, if am aiming to heal my leaky gut as much as possible to prevent the slow mild Sepsis that occurs in PWME.

Sure, I know you are familiar with them, but since lots of people read the posts on this forum, for general benefit I include the links and references.

Did you notice any improvements in energy and brain fog at around the 10 day mark when you started taking selenium 400 mcg daily? Also, I find if I stop taking selenium, my energy and brain fog starts to return after around 5 days. Did you find this?

I originally starting taking NAG because of its benefits for the gut lining (I also have IBS-D, and 39% of people with diarrhea-predominant IBS were found to have leaky gut 1). This is how I accidentally discovered it has good anti-anxiety effects.

What else inhibits the Th17 state?

There is a list of Th17 inhibitors here. I don't have any information on the relative potency of each inhibitor though.

 

[eljefe19]

I have been feeling much better as of late, but brain fog and fatigue are still bad, despite taking Selenium every morning. As always you're the man thank you for the list. Good to see I'm already taking a number of Th17 inhibitors.