Enteroviruses - revisited

sometexan84

sometexan84

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@Hip
Updates to list?

Isatis - for CVB 2, 3, 4 (not just CVB3)
https://radicalherbalismorg.files.w..._for_emerging__resistant_viral_infections.pdf

Korean Red Ginseng - CVB3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5052424/

Quercetin (as opposed to dihydroquercetin) - echovirus (type 7, 11, 12, and 19), coxsackievirus (A21 and B1)
Quercetin + Vitamin C (synergistic effect)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01451/full

N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) - CVB3
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219304735

Galangin (Helichrysum aureonitens) - CVB1
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9174978/

Unrelated Question.....
So, this article says...
the simultaneous application of apigenin with acyclovir resulted in an enhanced antiviral effect on herpes simplex virus types 1 and 2 (HSV-1 and HSV-2) in cell culture
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And they cite this article here - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1339152/
But I can't find more than just the Abstract. Anyway, wouldn't it be great it apigenin really did enhance the effects of acyclovir?
 
Hip

Hip

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sometexan84 said:
@Hip
Updates to list?
Click to expand...

Thanks for those studies you found on anti-enterovirus substances.

Almost all the supplements and drugs on my list of anti-enterovirus substances posted earlier in this thread unfortunately turned out to be ineffective in vivo

And it's likely the anti-enterovirus substances you listed above will also be ineffective in vivo (but I will have to check them before we can arrive at that conclusion).

When substances are tested for their antiviral effects in vitro in a cell line, researchers usually add high concentrations of the substance to the cell line. These high concentrations may have a potent antiviral effect in vivo; but in most cases the same high concentrations are not achievable in vivo in the bloodstream (because of issues of low bioavailability, high protein binding, or toxicity at higher doses).

At the time of creating the antiviral list, I did not know enough about pharmacokinetics to be able to calculate the in vivo blood concentration a substance achieves in the bloodstream when given orally or by injection. But years later, after learning about pharmacokinetics, I was able to perform these calculations, and sadly I found that nearly all substances in my antiviral list would not achieve sufficiently high concentrations in the blood for them to be effective antivirals in vivo.



That document from herbalist Stephen Harrod Buhner that you linked to above I would not necessarily trust. I am not sure if Buhner understands the difference between in vitro and in vivo antiviral potency. I suspect Buhner thinks that if a herb or supplement is antiviral in vitro, then it will work as an antiviral in vivo, when you take it orally. But this is not the case at all, for reasons explained above.



The N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) study you found looks the most promising, as this demonstrated antiviral effects for CVB3 in vivo in mice, as well as in vitro in a cell line. Although I've taken NAC 600 mg daily for periods of many months, but did not notice any improvements in my CVB4-associated ME/CFS.
 
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sometexan84

sometexan84

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Hip

Hip

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sometexan84 said:
Korean Red Ginseng - CVB3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5052424/
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I think I looked at this paper a while back. It reported that an active principle in Chinese ginseng (Panax notoginseng), namely 20(S)-protopanaxtriol, is antiviral for CVB3 in vitro and in vivo.

And it reported that ginsenosides Re, Rf, and Rg2 from Korean ginseng are antiviral for CVB3 in vitro.

However, I could not find any sources for these compounds, nor any information about their percentage content in the herb.



sometexan84 said:
Quercetin (as opposed to dihydroquercetin) - echovirus (type 7, 11, 12, and 19), coxsackievirus (A21 and B1)
Quercetin + Vitamin C (synergistic effect)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01451/full
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If I am not mistaken, there seems to be an error in this paper. I believe the data they quoted for quercetin is in fact is not for quercetin, but for the antiviral compound Ro 09-0179.

The paper stated that:
Quercetin inhibits several respiratory viruses in cultured cells (16, 37). It inhibits the cytopathic effects provoked by many serotypes of rhinovirus, echovirus (type 7, 11, 12, and 19), coxsackievirus (A21 and B1), and poliovirus (type 1 Sabin) at a minimal inhibitory concentration of 0.03 to 0.5 μg/ml in Hela or WI-38 cells (38).
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But if you look at reference (38) from the above paragraph, you find this paper, which states that for the antiviral compound Ro 09-0179:
The MIC50 against these picornaviruses ranged from 0.03 to 0.5 μg/ml in HeLa or WI-38 cells.
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So you can see the data applies to Ro 09-0179, and not to quercetin.

I have a folder on Ro 09-0179 on my computer. It is also called pachypodol.



sometexan84 said:
N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) - CVB3
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219304735
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It might be interesting for ME/CFS patients with active CVB3 infection to try NAC. Whether NAC works for other CVBs or for echovirus is hard to say.
 
mitoMAN

mitoMAN

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I honestly doubt any of the oral supplements or herbs will be sufficient for us - none has proven to be in vivo effective due to the little bioavailability as @Hip already stated!

Dont waste your money on it imo.

I did 18 days of Arbidol 8x 100mg for my Coxsackie B5.
Its the only compound having in vivo studies with huge effect.

Sadly I get extreme gut and stomach pains and cramps from it :( So I will drop it. I lost lots of weight since my intake as my body has severe gut problems from it.

I personally now believe that Coxsackie B5 isnt the root for my CFS. The 18 days didnt do anything positive.
According to studies, this dosage was enough to decrease the Coxsackie B5 viral load by 70% within 5 days!
 
Hip

Hip

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mitoMAN said:
I honestly doubt any of the oral supplements or herbs will be sufficient for us - none has proven to be in vivo effective due to the little bioavailability as @Hip already stated!
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With the exception of the herbal extract oxymatrine, which sometimes leads to major improvements for enterovirus ME/CFS.

But oxymatrine does not work by an antiviral mechanism (eg, an antiviral mechanism like inhibiting viral replication); rather oxymatrine boosts the immune response to fight enteroviruses.



mitoMAN said:
I personally now believe that Coxsackie B5 isnt the root for my CFS. The 18 days didnt do anything positive.
According to studies, this dosage was enough to decrease the Coxsackie B5 viral load by 70% within 5 days!
Click to expand...

Don't forget that the enterovirus infections found in ME/CFS are not regular acute enterovirus infections, but rather chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infections. Arbidol was tested in mice, and works against regular acute enterovirus infections; but that does not necessarily mean it will work for chronic non-cytolytic infections, which are a different beast.
 
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Hip

Hip

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sometexan84 said:
Rhodiola rosea in vivo CVB3
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18818064/
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Salidroside from Rhodiola rosea has zero antiviral effects in vivo, by my calculations based on the in vitro data from that study.

But the in vivo murine data from that study indicates that salidroside is effective against CVB3. This would be due to an immunomodulatory effect induced by salidroside, rather than an antiviral effect.

By my calculation, to get the equivalent human dose of the salidroside used in that murine study, a human would need to take 4300 mg of Rhodiola rosea. This is quite a high dose, as the normal human Rhodiola rosea dosage is 200 mg three times daily.
 
Hip

Hip

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sometexan84 said:
I specifically started Quercetin + Vit C for Echovirus 11, and my titers are still falling
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I believe some ME/CFS doctors have used quercetin as an antiviral.

But when I did some calculations to determine quercetin's in vivo antiviral effects on various viruses (those calculations based on data from in vitro antiviral studies on quercetin), the calculations indicated that quercetin has zero antiviral effects in vivo for those viruses (namely the viruses CMV, VZV, CVA16).

However, quercetin is also a Th2 to Th1 immunomodulator (ref here), just like oxymatrine is. So quercetin can boost the immune response against viruses, and this may explain why it may be useful in ME/CFS.


I can't really use quercetin myself, as I find it too overstimulating (it targets the same adenosine receptors as caffeine, and unlike caffeine, has a long half-life, so the stimulation remains all day long).
 
S

Svetlana82

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Hip said:
I am not sure. I know Dr Chia says oxymatrine works for CVB3 and B4, so it may work for other CVBs.





You might look into the low-dose oral interferon protocol detailed in this post. It put one patient into remission. That is very cheap if you use Russian interferon. I bought a box of some Russian interferon suppositories for just $11, and that's more than enough interferon for many months of oral low-dose treatment.

Interferon does not work for CVB4, though, according to Dr Chia.





You can try https://rupharma.com, who are able to ship from within the EU in Lithuania if you ask them. Also try their sister company https://mospharma.com who specialize in getting drugs delivered to countries with strict customs.
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@Hip Hello everyone!
Could someone please share Dr. Chia’s office in and his contacts? I have searched through Google but can’t find any way how to contact him. I have read about his treatment and am interested to give it a try. Thank you so much in advance! Best, Svetlana
 
Pyrrhus

Pyrrhus

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Svetlana82 said:
@Hip Hello everyone!
Could someone please share Dr. Chia’s office in and his contacts? I have searched through Google but can’t find any way how to contact him. I have read about his treatment and am interested to give it a try. Thank you so much in advance! Best, Svetlana
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Dr. John K. Chia has an office in Torrance, California.
His US phone number is 310-784-5880.
I don't know if he is currently accepting new patients.

Hope this helps.
 
WantedAlive

WantedAlive

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knackers323 said:
I just had the entero test at arup labs done from Australia. So its still possible.
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@knackers323 I know this was two years ago, but how did you get this ARUP test from Australia? I live in NZ, so keen to learn how you arranged this. I contacted ARUP direct, got an almost instant reply saying "not able to accept infectious disease testing for international submission". I'm assuming you went through some agency.

I can get a PCR test done here but not sure what assay sensitivity they offer (or what's needed to detect chronic virus).
 
Hip

Hip

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WantedAlive said:
I contacted ARUP direct, got an almost instant reply saying "not able to accept infectious disease testing for international submission".
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I understand that ARUP Lab will accept blood samples from abroad, if arranged by the patient's doctor.
 
Hip

Hip

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sometexan84 said:
How?
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Presumably by sending the serum sample directly to ARUP.

You do not have to go through LabCorp or Quest to arrange ARUP test, you can send the sample directly to ARUP, and pay for it yourself.

If you are outside the US, that's the way you would do it. I believe it is only if you have US health insurance that you have to go via LabCorp or Quest.
 
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