Enteroviruses - revisited

[Pyrrhus]

Regarding Enterovirus (testing, results, labs), I've created a poll. I'm hoping to get enough responses so we can see how common it is, and maybe learn more about testing accuracy.

If you get a moment, please have a look and respond - https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...r-enterovirus-b-which-lab-results-poll.83744/

One problem is that current testing misses out on most of the currently circulating enteroviruses.

These days the most virulent circulating enteroviruses are Enterovirus A71 and Enterovirus D68, for which tests are generally not available.

 

[Diwi9]

One problem is that current testing misses out on most of the currently circulating enteroviruses.

These days the most virulent circulating enteroviruses are Enterovirus A71 and Enterovirus D68, for which tests are generally not available.

Isn't the Enterovirus D68 the one that they attributed to Acute Flaccid Myelitis outbreak in children? Amazing that we don't have adequate tests.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Isn't the Enterovirus D68 the one that they attributed to Acute Flaccid Myelitis outbreak in children? Amazing that we don't have adequate tests.

There have been many enteroviruses associated with Acute Flaccid Paralysis (AFP).
(Which the CDC is now trying to rename "Acute Flaccid Myelitis", to make it sound less serious. )

More information:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...nosed-a-surprising-statistical-anomaly.79074/

 

[sometexan84]

One problem is that current testing misses out on most of the currently circulating enteroviruses.

These days the most virulent circulating enteroviruses are Enterovirus A71 and Enterovirus D68, for which tests are generally not available.

I wonder if the Enterovirus B testing done by Quest and LabCorp is good for only the acute infection, and not the persistent, non-cytolytic form you find in ME/CFS.

Surely, the Quest and LabCorp tests aren't 100% useless. They're completely inaccurate at LEAST when trying to identify the non-cytolytic infection. But I have to think there's a reason why they have their versions of the Coxsackie B and Echovirus antibody tests. @Hip

 

[Hip]

I wonder if the Enterovirus B testing done by Quest and LabCorp is good for only the acute infection, and not the persistent, non-cytolytic form you find in ME/CFS.

That's exactly right, if you've been hit with some nasty viral sore throat or gastrointestinal illness, and your doctor wants to find out if it is Coxsackie, then the complement fixation testing (CFT) method used by Quest and LabCorp will work fine, because in the acute infection, your body is chock full of virus.

But you have to be quick to get your test done, because acute Coxsackie infections are cleared from the body in a week or two.

I caught my Coxsackie B virus in London in 2003, and a few years later in 2005 when I realized that I had developed ME/CFS from it, I got a Coxsackie B and echovirus antibody at a private lab in London (the Doctor's Laboratory).

Of course, it was CFT, and it came out negative. Only much later did I learn that for these hard-to-detect chronic low-level Coxsackie infections, you need to use the neutralization method.

In fact, even Dr Chia only discovered this by accident: his office made a mistake and sent in error a batch of ME/CFS patient blood tests to ARUP, instead of their usual lab. Well Chia was surprised to see all these tests come back with really high antibody levels. That's how he figured out neutralization was more sensitive.

 

[sometexan84]

I do believe Enterovirus B is far more rampant in CFS than what many think. I wish I could get about 20 or so more responses to make the data a bit more relevant. But, thus far in the poll...

Abnormal results for 5 of 6 who tested for Coxsackie B via ARUP labs.

8 who either haven't tested, or tested through LabCorp or Quest.

And then 2 outliers that used a lab other than LabCorp, Quest, or ARUP, but say they actually tested positive.

 

[Hip]

Looks like Epstein-Barr virus also critically depends on caspase-1 for viral replication: see this study.

And the paper that @Cipher posted earlier indicates caspase-1 is critical for coxsackievirus B replication.

So potentially, a caspase-1 inhibitor like high-dose N-acetyl-cysteine may be useful for both coxsackievirus B and EBV ME/CFS.

And the caspase-1 inhibitor drug belnacasan (VX-765) which Wikipedia says has proved well tolerated in human clinical trials, might also help fight viral infections in ME/CFS — @mitoMAN might be interested in belnacasan, in terms of custom synthesis.



Today I took 3 x 600 mg capsules of N-acetyl-cysteine on an empty stomach, and had no side effects and no nausea. Tomorrow I will try taking this same dose, but three times a day, and see how I tolerate that.

 

[Cipher]

@Hip I found this interesting post by @Pyrrhus. NAC might potentiate Vitamin B12 via glutathione (maybe even more so in combination with glycine, another glutathione precursor).

 

[pattismith]

Looks like Epstein-Barr virus also critically depends on caspase-1 for viral replication: see this study.

And the paper that @Cipher posted earlier indicates caspase-1 is critical for coxsackievirus B replication.

So potentially, a caspase-1 inhibitor like high-dose N-acetyl-cysteine may be useful for both coxsackievirus B and EBV ME/CFS.

And the caspase-1 inhibitor drug belnacasan (VX-765) which Wikipedia says has proved well tolerated in human clinical trials, might also help fight viral infections in ME/CFS — @mitoMAN might be interested in belnacasan, in terms of custom synthesis.



Today I took 3 x 600 mg capsules of N-acetyl-cysteine on an empty stomach, and had no side effects and no nausea. Tomorrow I will try taking this same dose, but three times a day, and see how I tolerate that.

caspase 1 inhibitors may be interesting to down regulate IL-1 beta

Maybe we could create a list of repurposed drugs inhibiting caspase 1 that we could try?

caspase 1 inhibitor repurposed - Google Scholar

 

[Hip]

Maybe we could create a list of repurposed drugs inhibiting caspase 1 that we could try?

From my searching, these are the caspase-1 inhibitors I found so far:

N-acetyl-cysteine. Ref: 1
Belnacasan (VX-765)
Thalidomide. Ref: 1
Myricetin. Ref: 1 See table 2 and figure 4.

Surprisingly, myricetin was one of the more potent inhibitors of caspase-1, caspase-3, and caspase-7 in an in vitro assay (Figure 4) yet was dramatically weaker in the in vivo assay for caspase-3 and −7 (Figure 3).

 

[godlovesatrier]

Do we have any literature on the max safe nac dose? I'm at 600mg 3x a day but I would prefer to double it if it's safe to do so. I'm sure Pyrrhus posted a research study where it was safer to do 600 to 1000mg only per day.

Even so if more can be taken j wouldn't mind doing 1200mg 3x a day. It will knock the ebv out and I did have serology for Coxsackie infection a long time ago. But wasn't clear if it was active or dormant.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Do we have any literature on the max safe nac dose? I'm at 600mg 3x a day but I would prefer to double it if it's safe to do so. I'm sure Pyrrhus posted a research study where it was safer to do 600 to 1000mg only per day.

Even so if more can be taken j wouldn't mind doing 1200mg 3x a day. It will knock the ebv out and I did have serology for Coxsackie infection a long time ago. But wasn't clear if it was active or dormant.

Joshua looked out for studies because I need high doses of everything... He said no study mentioned higher doses than 6000mg... So I take 8000

 

[godlovesatrier]

Quite a lot of discussion on dosing here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/n-acetylcysteine-nac-crash.81804/ inc mention of the 600mg max per day limit. Hip says he tried 2g twice a day but it caused over stimulation, a few others with their dosing experiments as well.

8000 is a lot, if that doesn't kill something nothing will!

Think I'll double mine for now. Thanks.

 

[pattismith]

Identification and validation of uterine stimulant methylergometrine as a potential inhibitor of caspase-1 activation | SpringerLink

@Hip, maybe this one could be added to your list

 

[pete_parker]

Quite a lot of discussion on dosing here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/n-acetylcysteine-nac-crash.81804/ inc mention of the 600mg max per day limit. Hip says he tried 2g twice a day but it caused over stimulation, a few others with their dosing experiments as well.

8000 is a lot, if that doesn't kill something nothing will!

Think I'll double mine for now. Thanks.

Large doses can be dangerous. The study I read said anything over 600mg per day is not recommended. From memory it can cause shortness of breath by interference of oxygen metabolism - Along those lines, report back with link.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Well I've been on 2.5g a day for 60 days with no bad effects. If anything when I increase it it helps with physical fatigue.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Going to try 5g twice a day, as Hip suggested on another thread that might be the right dosage. I'm already doing about 4g a day spread out, so I'll do 5g in two single doses and see how I get on. As I am still having trouble keeping something - I assume it's ebv due to the symptoms in check when ramping up beta glucan dosages in Josh's protocol. If I go above 400mg beta glucans the ebv seems to replicate quicker than the reishi can tell the immune system to get rid of it. But enteroviral infection may also be an issue.

I'll report back if any adverse effects.

 

[kewia]

@Hip,

Did you tried oxymatrine yourself?
What were your reactions?

 

[Hip]

Did you tried oxymatrine yourself?
What were your reactions?

Oxymatrine did not work for me.

 

[kewia]

Oxymatrine did not work for me.

Thanks for your update, @Hip.
Could you elaborate a bit more about your side effects if there were any ones?
It got cold rushes from oxymatrine and cold skin in form of spurts.

I think these are autoimmune reactions, don't know.
Does anyone know if there was any survey scheduled on phoenix rising concerning oxymatrine therapy?
Would be interested.