Enteroviruses - revisited

[Hip]

@Jesse2233, in the last few days, I have been dissolving my two 40 mg capsules of dihydroquercetin (DHQ) in 15 ml of 40% ethanol (eg, vodka, gin or whisky), and then drinking that. DHQ is much more soluble in ethanol compared to water, so I think this should help improve absorption in the gut.

Interestingly enough, I am finding this DHQ dissolved in 40% ethanol makes me feel more tired within an hour or so of taking it (DHQ on its own did not do this). I think this is an indication that I am absorbing much more DHQ by this ethanol method (because I read that tiredness or drowsiness can be a side effect of quercetin, and I presume of dihydroquercetin too).

So DHQ dissolved in 15 ml (= one tablespoon) of vodka, gin, etc may be a good way to improve absorption. In a few days, I am going to increase my DHQ dose to 4 x 40 mg capsules, again dissolved in 40% ethanol.

By the way, Swanson slightly reduced the amount of DHQ in their capsules from 45 mg to 40 mg.

 

[Steve4Andrea]

@Hip If you are still looking at liposomal DHQ I encourage you to look at this protocol-

http://qualityliposomalc.com/process/index.html

He seems to have a process engineering background and has a pretty good handle on what it takes to make liposomes. You can get some liposomal encapsulation without the ultra sonic by just using a good blender, following his recipe and minding the temperatures.

For the DHQ his addition of ethanol to the formulation for the liposomal should enhance the solubility. I have made multiple batches of vitamin C with this protocol with great success (it has helped everybody but the one who is really sick), I have also done liposomal versions of ethanol extracts of herbal anti virals- unfortunately with no improvement in the effectiveness.

 

[Hip]

@Hip If you are still looking at liposomal DHQ I encourage you to look at this protocol-

http://qualityliposomalc.com/process/index.html

Thanks for pointing that out that website (I had actually come across it recently myself, and bookmarked it).

Would you have experience with making liposomes from supplements or drugs that are mostly insoluble in water, like curcumin, quercetin or dihydroquercetin (DHQ)? According to this study (which I have not yet understood properly), you get a much better liposomal encapsulation efficiency with lipophilic compounds like curcumin and DHQ (around 90% encapsulation efficiency), compared to water soluble compounds (which may only have a 10% encapsulation efficiency). So liposomal DHQ would probably work out very well.

 

[Steve4Andrea]

Would you have experience with making liposomes from supplements or drugs that are mostly insoluble in water,

My personal experience and research has always been with/on soluble compounds, the protocol I referenced has the benefit of using both ethanol and water so it expands the list of possible soluble compounds. My simple understanding of liposomal delivery is to enhance the absorption of compounds that are "hard" for our bodies to absorb by encapsulating them in an easier to absorb substance (lecithin for home use). I'm not sure how you would calculate the final absorption of a compound like DHQ without extensive lab work, to me there are just to many variables- I was just looking for "better than before" results.

My quick assessment of the study you referenced is that they are evaluating a new or proprietary method for manufacturing liposomals and I'm guessing it will be beyond the capabilities of a "home" manufacturing setup. I'm not sure but I think that the % encapsulation efficiency mentioned is probably unique to their process and not transferable to the home method. The traditional way to measure home encapsulation is to add liposomal vit. C to a baking soda solution and measure the resultant "foam", I did some early testing but now I just go with the end result. If you are dealing with soluble compounds (like DHQ) then you should get pretty good encapsulation from the home method but an actual percentage would be tough to calculate.

 

[Never Give Up]

A little update on the dihyroquercetin. My son is responding well to it. He took 1 Swanson's capsule per day for a week and noticed an improvement. He's been on 1 cap twice a day for 5 days now and says his muscles feel better, and he has greater endurance. He has gone a lot of places and done a lot of things in the past few weeks and he hasn't crashed, hasn't even felt like he might. He was tired last night, but woke up fine. Hope it lasts.

 

[shannah]

A little update on the dihyroquercetin. My son is responding well to it. He took 1 Swanson's capsule per day for a week and noticed an improvement. He's been on 1 cap twice a day for 5 days now and says his muscles feel better, and he has greater endurance. He has gone a lot of places and done a lot of things in the past few weeks and he hasn't crashed, hasn't even felt like he might. He was tired last night, but woke up fine. Hope it lasts.

Excellent!

Has anyone sourced a cheaper or bulk supply for it?

 

[Hip]

A little update on the dihyroquercetin. My son is responding well to it. He took 1 Swanson's capsule per day for a week and noticed an improvement.

Good to hear that. Although that improvement probably appeared a little too fast for it to be due to an antiviral effect of dihydroquercetin (antivirals typically take months to work for ME/CFS). But it might be due to the ability of DHQ to improve athletic performance.

 

[Never Give Up]

Good to hear that. Although that improvement probably appeared a little too fast for it to be due to an antiviral effect of dihydroquercetin (antivirals typically take months to work for ME/CFS). But it might be due to the ability of DHQ to improve athletic performance.

Dr. Chia views it as a Mast cell stabilizer and thinks that Mast cells play a role in the body's response to enteroviruses.

 

[Hip]

Dr. Chia views it as a Mast cell stabilizer and thinks that Mast cells play a role in the bodies response to enteroviruses.

Would you have a link to where you read that? I assumed Dr Chia was using DHQ because of its antiviral effects.

 

[Never Give Up]

No link, this is what he told us last month.

 

[flitza]

Sounds absolutely fascinating; hopefully that will lead to sensitive tests for chronic enterovirus infection, which should help push ME/CFS enterovirus research forward.





That's great news. And it shows the amazing efforts that Dr John Chia has put into moving ME/CFS research and treatment forward, as I believe Dr Chia spent a lot of time courting drug companies, and making them aware of the link between chronic enterovirus infection, and the 17 million ME/CFS patients worldwide, which is good market.





Did Dr Chia by chance mention what kind of improvements he was observing in his patients using DHQ? And was two capsules per day of the Swanson dihydroquercetin (which contains 45 mg DHQ per capsule) the maximum dose he recommended?

Do you yourself have a chronic active coxsackievirus B4 infection? The study showed DHQ is antiviral for coxsackievirus B4, but not other viruses. It's possible DHQ may also be antiviral for other CVBs, and maybe for echovirus too; but all we know for sure from the study is that DHQ is effective against CVB4.

When he recommended DHQ for me he did not suggest taking more than 2 per day.

 

[Sancar]

When he recommended DHQ for me he did not suggest taking more than 2 per day.

Hi@filtza ~ I too was told to start at 1 a day for r a week then 2 a day by dr c. It has made a difference in my physical stamina. Not to the degree of Never Give Up’s account, but it has helped. I’ve got only been taking it about 5 weeks. I think it will get better- I hope!

 

[Hip]

It's DHQ that has proven antiviral effects against CVB4, rather than quercetin. However, Dr Chia has not had much success with DHQ.

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

Quercetin is significant enough to be listed on the Enterovirusfoundation's website's treatment section.

http://www.enterovirusfoundation.org/treatment3.html

I found the water soluble quercetin (not available anymore) extremely helpful for my EV infection, much more so then my recent extensive use of DHQ that you speak of.

In conjunction with my CFS specialist and a compounding pharmacist, we are attempting to forumulate a liposomal form of quercetin with very high absorption. He has done Vitamin C, GSH & a few other compounds, so am confident he will have this made up at some point too.

 

[Hip]

In my ongoing pharmacokinetic project (to be posted on this forum soon), where I am calculating the actual oral antiviral potency of dozens of different supplements, herbs, substances and off-label drugs, my calculation for quercetin showed that it had pretty much zero antiviral effect in the body when taken orally.

The trouble with quercetin is that not only is its oral bioavailability very poor (around just 1%), but also its plasma protein binding is very high (around 99%) so that most of this supplement will bind to proteins in the blood and become inactive, which means that very little free quercetin actually reaches the virally infected cells in your tissues.

Antiviral compounds are often tested in vitro in cell lines; but although antiviral compounds can have potent effects in vitro at a certain concentration, very often that concentration cannot be achieved in the body, because of low bioavailability and high plasma protein binding. Hence a potent antiviral in vitro can often turn out to be a very weak antiviral in vivo.

And even if you could increase quercetin's bioavailability, it may not be wise to do so, since this article says:

To increase the amount of quercetin absorbed it should be consumed with oil. However, matters are not simple. It is true that quercetin gives many health benefits, but in high concentrations it is potentially damaging. Therefore, I am not keen on quercetin supplements in oil

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

I guess that means @Never Give Up is also imagining the improvements then?

You do not realise how arrogant you come across or probably do, and do not care.

Or is "Disproving" forum members experiences, fun for you?

 

[halcyon]

I guess that means @Never Give Up is also imagining the improvements then?

You do not realise how arrogant you come across or probably do, and do not care.

Or is "Disproving" forum members experiences, fun for you?

There's no need to attack people for pointing out reality. I never saw him say or try to imply they weren't causing improvements for people. Biology is complex. There could be a million different possible ways these compounds might help. He's just pointing out that pharmacokinetically, it's unlikely that these compounds are having a strong antiviral effect in vivo.

 

[Hip]

I guess that means @Never Give Up is also imagining the improvements then?

You do not realise how arrogant you come across or probably do, and do not care.

You will have to explain to me why you perceive that as arrogant; I thought that info would be helpful.

It's actually taken me months of work, working literally from morning to night, to go through all the enterovirus antiviral supplements and drugs I listed in an earlier post here, to calculate the in vivo antiviral potency of all these substances.

I was hoping to find some hidden gems, some overlooked antivirals that could be used for ME/CFS, but alas after all that work, I am sad to say that I did not find any antiviral supplements or off-label drugs that had potent effects in vivo, although I found a few that had some modest antiviral effects, which possibly might be of mild benefit for ME/CFS.


I forgot to mention, because I am a bit brain fogged in recent days, that quercetin also has some Th2 > Th1 immunomodulatory properties (see here), and so although it has no antiviral effects in vivo, it may still fight viral infection to some degree via immunomodulation.

I would not think quercetin's Th2 > Th1 immunomodulatory properties are as good as oxymatrine's, as oxymatrine has been known to put some lucky ME/CFS patients into remission, and often makes major improvements in ME/CFS; whereas quercetin does not have that sort of track record, though has been employed by some ME/CFS doctors.

And as Halcyon points out, quercetin may have some other biological effects that could be useful in ME/CFS. For example, we know that quercetin is helpful for MCAS.

 

[Sancar]

Quercetin is significant enough to be listed on the Enterovirusfoundation's website's treatment section.

http://www.enterovirusfoundation.org/treatment3.html

I found the water soluble quercetin (not available anymore) extremely helpful for my EV infection, much more so then my recent extensive use of DHQ that you speak of.

In conjunction with my CFS specialist and a compounding pharmacist, we are attempting to forumulate a liposomal form of quercetin with very high absorption. He has done Vitamin C, GSH & a few other compounds, so am confident he will have this made up at some point too.

Hi @mrmichaelfreedmen ~ May you ask where your compound pharmacy is? I would really appreciate being able to access those supplements myself. Over 20 years ago (or more) I had Naturepath recommend Quercetin to me when I was ‘rigorously traveling’ for work. It was to help prevent and fight whatever was going around. I noticed a big difference when I took it. I wasn’t “sick” like I am now. I don’t remember the brand specificity yet I do know that, I like you could not find the ‘water soluble’ type again. I would really appreciate giving it a go.

Everyone responds “differently” to each and every supplement, drug or treatment. It’s just like our DNA.

Thank you for your posts, Sancar ....if you want to PM with a reply

 

[knackers323]

@Hip
I just had the entero test at arup labs done from Australia. So its still possible.

Have you evrr heard of Dr Chia or any association of Echovirus type 30 with cfs? Only 1:320

Also had cvb2 and cvb4 @ 1:80 and 1:160 respectively.

Dr chia would not consider these last two to be of any significance woukd he?