Efthymios’s AI aided protocol

[lyran]

@lyran A combination of a liver detox (which took a month), and then taking betaine HCL with pepsin, and finally a course of glycine seemed to get my liver detox pathways working properly.

This is a bit off topic but I still ask: how much glycine did you take and did you take it in the morning or evening? What did you take for liver detox?

Stomach inflammation and probably leaky gut is something I'm dealing with all the time. This Friday I ate something I shouldn't and I have felt awful for the whole weekend. Enteric coated oregano oil helps a bit but it is only a temporary solution.

Even when eating a chocolate bar or 2 slices of pizza, I wake up in the night with racing heart, all sweaty and the next day I have a an awful nausea with headache and a feeling I will throw up.

Hi guys. Definite improvements in cognitive acuity (clarity) with TUDCA (only taking 250mg at the moment) and improvements in fatigue for sure. I am guessing it's an anti microbial and antiviral effect (it does do both). Side effects right now are feeling giddy/happy, mild brainfog (hoping this will go with time), dry mouth (again hoping that's just temporary - I have had both chronic and temp dry mouth before).

Hopefully the good effects will last.

 

[Mary]

This is a bit off topic but I still ask: how much glycine did you take and did you take it in the morning or evening? What did you take for liver detox?

It's a little more complicated. This all happened over a period of several years but I'll try to be brief. Back in 2003 or so I felt awful (besides PEM etc.) - my digestion was way off, I couldn't eat food until after noon and and I felt extra tired and sick and basically poisoned. My chiropractor who did muscle testing found that my liver was overloaded with toxins (from heavy exposure to acetone I'd had at a job when I was 19). He's the one who supervised my liver detox - as I recall, he gave me parotid PMG and Cholacol II by Standard Process and he determined the doses. I did this for a month, felt sick and tired the entire time, but when it was done overall my digestion was way better. Before this one glass of wine would leave me sick for an entire day and 2 glasses would leave me sick for 2 - 3 days. I also learned I needed betaine HCL with pepsin for proper digestion - am low in stomach acid. I also started taking milk thistle at this time, very good for the liver and my liver has been much better ever since.

However, I found that I still had detox symptoms a lot when I would ingest certain things - anything that had "cleansing" properties (e.g., apple cider vinegar or cayenne) - these would give me detox symptoms, feeling tired, sick, poisoned, digestion off, though it would only last a few days and I'd stop the offending substance. But I reacted to an amazing amount of things. So in 2014 (I think!) I decided to take glycine to help with sleep. I'd read it was helpful for that, and I think initially I took gelatin, high in glycine. So I took a tablespoon or so before bed, and it hit me like a truck. I had a severe detox reaction, made me very tired and spacey, etc. I got lost going to my sister's house the next day. I would have stopped the glycine but my chiro told me (based on muscle testing) that it was actually good for me, but in a much smaller dose. So I started a very small dose of glycine - I can't remember how much - I still reacted to it but not nearly as strongly as the higher doses. I also found that glutamine (very good for leaky gut) and inositol which I was taking at the same time also gave me detox reactions, but they also tested positive for me so I took all three things in small doses, over a period of 6 months. I gradually increased the doses and by the end of 6 months I no longer had a detox reaction to these things. I had also stopped reacting to everything under the sun like ACV and cayenne etc. I read that glycine is necessary for phase II liver detox and I think these got my liver detox pathways working properly.

Sorry this is so long - there's no way to explain it in a few sentences. And I can drink wine like a normal person now

 

[lyran]

Sorry this is so long - there's no way to explain it in a few sentences. And I can drink wine like a normal person now

Thanks, I like long answers.

Sadly we don't have Natural Doctors here where I live but I could try low doses of glycine and glutamine if I can tolerate them. Most gut beneficial products are high in sulfur and I'm sulfur intolerant (trying MSM and NAC was a nightmare). I have chronic urticaria which is a hallmark symptom for leaky gut.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks, I like long answers.

Sadly we don't have Natural Doctors here where I live but I could try low doses of glycine and glutamine if I can tolerate them. Most gut beneficial products are high in sulfur and I'm sulfur intolerant (trying MSM and NAC was a nightmare). I have chronic urticaria which is a hallmark symptom for leaky gut.

I have a terrible headache so I'm not able to go through this article at the moment but there is supposed to be something in it about urticaria. https://www.histamined.com/post/theanine-what-it-is-what-it-can-do

 

[mariovitali]

Most gut beneficial products are high in sulfur and I'm sulfur intolerant (trying MSM and NAC was a nightmare).

Here is one example where highly beneficial supplements for one patient, is not beneficial at all for another. I think these are key factors for identifying patient subtypes.

For example, I did try glycine and it resulted in getting a high pitched tinnitus (usually not a good thing for me) that lasted for a couple of hours. Now Glycine is supposed to be inhibitory, as opposed to glutamate which is excitatory at neurons. Anything with sulfur on the other hand is highly beneficial for me.

 

[lyran]

I have a terrible headache so I'm not able to go through this article at the moment but there is supposed to be something in it about urticaria. https://www.histamined.com/post/theanine-what-it-is-what-it-can-do

Thanks, I will read it. Though I have already tried theanine and mostly noticed a slight dopaminergic effect. It is something that will keep me awake if I take it in the evening.

Here is one example where highly beneficial supplements for one patient, is not beneficial at all for another. I think these are key factors for identifying patient subtypes.

For example, I did try glycine and it resulted in getting a high pitched tinnitus (usually not a good thing for me) that lasted for a couple of hours. Now Glycine is supposed to be inhibitory, as opposed to glutamate which is excitatory at neurons. Anything with sulfur on the other hand is highly beneficial for me.

Yes that would be something. I didn't have any sulfur intolerance before I got sick, heck I could eat almost anything without issues but lactose containing foods.

I tried magnesium glycinate and it kept me awake for the night but I haven't tried taking it or pure glycine in the morning. So I think it doesn't act as inhibitory for me either.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks, I will read it. Though I have already tried theanine and mostly noticed a slight dopaminergic effect. It is something that will keep me awake if I take it in the evening.


Yes that would be something. I didn't have any sulfur intolerance before I got sick, heck I could eat almost anything without issues but lactose containing foods.

I tried magnesium glycinate and it kept me awake for the night but I haven't tried taking it or pure glycine in the morning. So I think it doesn't act as inhibitory for me either.

Do you tend towards high blood pressure?

Tyrosine gives me a dopaminergic reaction, but I find I need that, even to sleep. Also helps with restless leg syndrome.

Theanine just eases anxiety for me, but as it's been said many times, we are all different.

 

[Mary]

Sadly we don't have Natural Doctors here where I live but I could try low doses of glycine and glutamine if I can tolerate them.

Do you have chiropractors where you live? A chiropractor is the one who helped me with my liver detox and muscle testing, everything I wrote about above. Many chiropractors do muscle testing. You just have to call and ask if they do it.

 

[godlovesatrier]

I took glycine for 18 months then restarted it not long ago and felt terrible taking it, not even sleepy just nausea (so just goes to show how things can change!). However it does change microbiome but not as aggressively as botanicals so that could explain the nausea. If you do tolerate it you can do 5g 3x a day, it increase glycosis:

Glycation promotes OS: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPPJGtXw=/?moveToWidget=3458764535474366980&cot=14

Glycine exerts anti glycation effects: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPPJGtXw=/?moveToWidget=3458764535474366977&cot=14

Oral glycine turns down RAGE: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVPPJGtXw=/?moveToWidget=3458764535474366982&cot=14

"Immune cells are infiltrated and activated in the CNS, and the metabolic pattern changes from oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS) to glycolysis (165, 166). A glycation agent, MGO, is produced during glycolysis, which in turn is derived into AGEs that induce an inflammatory response by activating the RAGE pathway."

I'm sure RAGE is implicated in a downstream ME metabolic shift but I can't find the link anywhere.

 

[linusbert]

I took glycine for 18 months then restarted it not long ago and felt terrible taking it, not even sleepy just nausea (so just goes to show how things can change!)

careful with supplements, you might be having reactions to something else in the product and not the glycine. especially in the last 2 years was a significant drop in quality in the whole supplement and food industry.
i got allergy reactions to glucose monohydrate which is actually not really possible... they switched something in production and purity changed, so i got reactions from one batch but not the other - i did test it side by side. not only that vendor made this problem, in the end i could not order a glucose product anymore i did not get the reaction. the whole industry shifted.
and it was USP pharma grade glucose, i directly ordered with the pharmacy. but for USP its fine if its just 99,5% purity instead of 99,9% or 99,99% ... but if you take like 50g of product and it has 0,5% impuritys this is something like 250mg. 250mg is huge and you do not even know what these 250mg are. it could be everything.

i once had a alpha lipoic acid product which gave me black hats and itchy skin. i ordered different brand, i did not get those reactions. so you really can get fucked by the supplement industry, and even worse, they are not even USP. when USP products are spoiled with 99,5% impurity you can imagine what the unregulated supplement industry will crap there products.

and of course, there is always the "new and improved formula".

i can just say, never buy chinese ingredients / or from a manufacturer which does so. NEVER. not even the promised USP and organic and heavy metal free certificated stuff.
they do not give a crap about your health and if they cause harm they just close the factory and open a new one.. or just change company name. there is no liability for any wrong doing.

 

[lyran]

Do you tend towards high blood pressure?

Tyrosine gives me a dopaminergic reaction, but I find I need that, even to sleep. Also helps with restless leg syndrome.

Theanine just eases anxiety for me, but as it's been said many times, we are all different.

No, my blood pressure is low, I have tachycardia and POTS. It is often difficult to fall asleep as my heart is pounding constantly.

I also benefit from tyrosine from time to time but the dosage needs to be quite big. I take it in the morning.

Do you have chiropractors where you live? A chiropractor is the one who helped me with my liver detox and muscle testing, everything I wrote about above. Many chiropractors do muscle testing. You just have to call and ask if they do it.

Yes we have chiropractors but I'm not sure if they do anything else than spinal manipulations as they don't advertise anything else, but yes I could call and ask. We also have homeopaths and functional doctors.

 

[Violeta]

No, my blood pressure is low, I have tachycardia and POTS. It is often difficult to fall asleep as my heart is pounding constantly.

I also benefit from tyrosine from time to time but the dosage needs to be quite big. I take it in the morning.

I have low blood pressure, too. I take Butcher's Broom with they tyrosine and they seem to work well together. The tyrosine I use is Swanson's brand acetyl-l-tyrosine. Swanson frequently sells them BOGO, so it's very affordable and I had read and do find it to be true that the acetyl-l form is much more effective.

 

[lyran]

I have low blood pressure, too. I take Butcher's Broom with they tyrosine and they seem to work well together. The tyrosine I use is Swanson's brand acetyl-l-tyrosine. Swanson frequently sells them BOGO, so it's very affordable and I had read and do find it to be true that the acetyl-l form is much more effective.

What effects do you notice from Butcher's Broom? I read that it is supposed to help with circulation and inflammation. I haven't tried it myself yet.

 

[BrightCandle]

I was already doing most of this and I added Taurine and D-Limonene and I do feel a bit better after a week of that. Its not much though and we all know how this goes but its nice to be having a somewhat better week.

 

[Violeta]

What effects do you notice from Butcher's Broom? I read that it is supposed to help with circulation and inflammation. I haven't tried it myself yet.

It helps me be able to stand up and not have my heart flutter.

Has to do with neurotransmitters.

 

[godlovesatrier]

"Apart from the anti-inflammatory effect, our results showed that high bile acid levels were associated with high lymphocyte (CD4+ T cells, CD8+ T cells, B cells and NK cells) counts."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9489940/

"Hu et al. reported that viral infection induced intracellular accumulation of bile acids in many different cell types and the bile acids promoted antiviral responses of target cells (29). Bile acids can regulate the immune functions of T cells and NK cells (30) and determine the differentiation of T cells (29). Our results suggested that higher bile acid levels promoted cellular immune responses against HAdV-7, but the underlying mechanism needs to be further investigated."

So it might be antoher way of improving NK cell numbers, but no info about function. My dry mouth has gone today - I had a break yesterday. Which is good, but still got some mild side effects.

"Treatment with the chemical chaperon tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA), an ER stress relieving agent, was able to reverse the B and T cell dysfunction in COPG1K652E mice upon exposure to pet store mice, however, IL-6 serum levels remained elevated84"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29946-6

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hey all,

So I've taken tudca 250mg for about 5 or 6 days with a 1 day break. My chronic sore throat has vanished, fatigue is hugely dialled back - I recovered from exertion last night before I went to bed...which is something else. My digestion was vastly better this week, I think stress has recently caused it to play havoc with my digestion and I've been getting intestinal pain. My allergic asthma and allergic rhinitis and congestion from damp has disappeared after about 3-4 days o 250mg dosing. ER stress can directly cause this and I wonder i a lot of people with FM and ME who are breathless have asthma that isn't "real asthma" which a friend of mine does, are really just dealing with very high er stress.

Side effects include: insomnia (half the night), hyperactivity, slight difficulty maintaining focus (bit like drinking too much cofee, I'd suggest this is the taurine tbh), mood - quicker to anger, shorter fuse. I am currently quite stressed out tho so some of these sides could be stress induced. Brainfog has been a bit all over the place but was bad before tudca anyway and had been for about 2 weeks, so I am not really sure if it's effecting it or not. Also the brainfog is fairly mild and i partly feel paranoid as opposed to certain my memory is worse. At any rate taking a lower dose should help, but I didn't take any today and still feel a bit wired.

That's my update for now.

 

[ZeroGravitas]

So, I've been discussing liver/ER stress with Efthymios/MarioVitali elsewhere and trying it on for size as a framework of self-treatment. Given my past (10 years ago) difficulty with tolerating any phase 2 detox substrate amino acids, some slightly elevated liver enzymes, etc (I forget).

TUDCA or in low dose or mainly other things. which ones are you using?

what i noticed, after i took TUDCA for a few weeks, my bloodwork of HDL and LDL came back with HDL lowered a lot and LDL raised.

I started several months ago, taking 2x 500mg of a random Amazon listed TUDCA. After breakfast and dinner. Which gave no side effects (quite unusual ). Or noticable benefits.

Now that product disappeared I switched to Nutricost 250mg, 3x a day (wake, dinner, bed) as Efthymios and DrT (on Twitter) both seemed to preffer that lower dose spread out as much as possible. What timings for the rest of you..?

My cholesterol (on home finger-prick tests) has gotten even higher, within the last few months (8mmol/L). Not sure of ratio or what to make of it. Been more fully excluding frutose, after worst intolerance of it, post-Covid this year.

1) No to : sugar, glutamate, fructose, soy, foods with HFCS, Palm Oil, any foods spiking significantly insulin
2)No simple carbohydrates (Pasta,Rice, Potatoes etc)
3) No too much protein or whey protein
4) Yes to : Legumes, Olive Oil, Fiber-rich foods

Hmm. Due to limited options, I rely on poridge oats for breakfast. That unfortunately makes my serum glucose level bounce up and down repeatedly (over the few hours after, on a continuous glucose monitor). Also daily white rice and a lot of meat, to avoid more weight loss.

But no protein powder. For other's benefit: we talked about denatured whey, or other types, having misfolded protein structure. So a lot of that could possibly (?) be putting pressure on the 'unfolded protein response' (in liver cells?).

I developed an IgG antibody mediated food protein intolerance to lentils and chickpeas, in addition to dairy, yeast and histamine. So options are limited. But I'm thinking about giving some (lowish oxolate) beans a go some time. Not sure fermentables will be good or not, but my BiomeSight results recommend them for adjusting a few bateria types. Anyway (more replies ro come)...

 

[ZeroGravitas]

I don't tolerate sulfur containing supplements but active B2 (Flavin Mononucleotide) does help with that, molybdenum for some reason does not. I also don't tolerate methylfolate or folinic acid even in tiny doses. Choline does seem to make me worse.

Same with sulphur supps (and goitrogens - sulphurous veg, even). But don't get any characteristic sulphite intolerance symproms. Just next day spacey fatigue, as with most things.

My taurine appeared naturally high (vs all other aminos), seemingly from draining/backed up sulphur metabolism:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481648263916752901

I've just bought some R5P (another better form of B2) to try. Trying to figure out which part(s) of my Seeking Health B-vit complex benefits me. As taking (a pinch) of the whole thing also makes me feel worst...

I also haven't seemed to tolerate any B9 forms, in the past. So haven't tried that recently. But NHS bloods showed it down the bottom of normal and potassium low (which I've been supplementing a load in balance with sodium, both chloride).

I couldn't seem to tolerate plain choline, or lecithin (I think maybe not inositol either, but unsure I tried that properly). Maybe TMAO concersion, via gut bacteria..?

Because I'm ok with alpha-GPC (of course, the more expensive variety ). And have been back on a couple of eggs every 3 days (cautious because they are another food I had intolerance of, for years).

I wake up in the night with racing heart, all sweaty and the next day I have a an awful nausea

Is this not just standard histamine/adrenaline dump? That so many with MCAS talk about.

I've had awakenings with this timing, sometime too warm. But I can't [sweat] and HR isn't elevated. Passing nausea recently, too, while trying (probably a little too much) NMN for the first time (and other stuff). Efthymios cautioned possible liver damage, and to test for raised enzymes (because of nasea).

glycine for 18 months then restarted it not long ago and felt terrible taking it, not even sleepy just nausea

That was his response too, to (much less) glycine.

For me, TMG initially gave me a boost (many years ago). Pressumably the methyl groups (helping detox histamine and everything). But then stopped. (That's when my ALT was a little high.) And then any type of plain glycine (or glutamine, cysteine, etc) gave me fatigue reactions. Hence being very interested in the below...

A combination of a liver detox (which took a month), and then taking betaine HCL with pepsin, and finally a course of glycine seemed to get my liver detox pathways working properly.

What did you take for liver detox?

I was gonna ask too!

PMG and Cholacol II by Standard Process

PMG? Bovine saliva..? For metal/other toxicity (how's that work)?

Cholacol II, (I read as chacoal first, thinking binder) is this ox bile? Efthymios and other caution that most bile salts are toxic and will add stress. (So I stopped my small amount of broad spectrum digestive enzymes with some in.)

Not sure if I'd need to do this stage: my motility has generally been reasonable and I've never really felt poisoned.

betaine HCL with pepsin for proper digestion - am low in stomach acid. I also started taking milk thistle

I'm going to try adding a little Betaine-HCL back in (before trying NMN, which seemed a bit boost). Cautious of its glycine.

Never sure if I really need more stomach acid though. Because I've burped a reasonable amount, from sodium bicarb test. And YouTube info seems to say deficiency is rare. And the usual process to increase HCL supp until feeling discomfort is flawed, possibly damaging/excessive.

gelatin, high in glycine

glutamine (very good for leaky gut) and inositol which I was taking at the same time also gave me detox reactions

Hmm. I didcovered that I'd accidentally been taking 1 gelatin capsule per day, after I double/trippled it up. And cutting that seemed to five me a noticable improvement in energy.

(Someone on Twitter hypothesised it might be because gelatine creates a lot of histamine in the process of breakinf it down..?)

So how low was your small amount (or glycine, etc), to start? I don't think I could go loe enough to not tip me over into too much cofnitive difficulties and be enough to achive anything.

How about pulsing standard doses, like once a week..? This is where I got stuck, with my old nutritional therapist, back then. Maybe I just dodn't reach the right stage for rebuilding intestinal integrity and these supps, yet. (Or its because of my H2S bacteria I've juat been eyeing up, or something like that.)

 

[Violeta]

There are various issues that can be taking place in the liver, so I imagine there would be various ways to deal with those issues.

How many people with ME/CFS have copper stuck in their liver?

Virus in the liver?

Stones in the liver and gall bladder?