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Doubts about B12/b9

Messages
51
Hello everyone, I have questions about supplementing with B9 and B12, I don't know in what proportion they should be taken, more B12 than B9 or the other way around? Should vitamin B12 be taken minutes before folate? I have read in the forum that you have to keep the b12 sublingual for about 60 minutes, for me it dissolves in just 5 minutes, am I doing something wrong?
 

drmullin30

Senior Member
Messages
221
In my experience, this is incredibly individual and variable over time. I used to need more b12 than folate and now I sometimes supplement folate without any b12 for several days. All I can say is that in my case I needed to learn the symptoms of deficiency and paradoxical deficiency to understand where your ratio should be at any given time. There are risks associated with excess of either vitamin so go low and slow and don't forget your cofactors.
 
Messages
51
In my experience, this is incredibly individual and variable over time. I used to need more b12 than folate and now I sometimes supplement folate without any b12 for several days. All I can say is that in my case I needed to learn the symptoms of deficiency and paradoxical deficiency to understand where your ratio should be at any given time. There are risks associated with excess of either vitamin so go low and slow and don't forget your cofactors.
Hello. Thanks for answering. I'll have to keep testing. By taking b12, have you achieved the "neurological glow" effect? Another thing I wonder about is: when consuming b12 and b9, is there a risk that homocysteine will drop too much? In just a few weeks it has dropped from 17 to 9. I see that the Freddd protocol does not mention this issue.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
is there a risk that homocysteine will drop too much?

Ideal would be a homocysteine between 5 and 9 µmol/L. Lucky you, in my case homocysteine even slightly increased over many years, despite supplementing about 2 mg/d of B9 and B12, or for example 160 mg/d B6 and B2 for 15 years.
 
Messages
51
Ideal would be a homocysteine between 5 and 9 µmol/L. Lucky you, in my case homocysteine even slightly increased over many years, despite supplementing about 2 mg/d of B9 and B12, or for example 160 mg/d B6 and B2 for 15 years.
No, I don't have good luck. I need to take b9 and b12. The first problem is finding the right ratio. The second problem is if my homocysteine decreases too much I would fear an added problem. The question is, how can I take b9 and b12 without my homocysteine dropping through the floor.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
Homocysteine in your case is at the upper end of ideal, and no indication that it would drop through the floor.
 
Messages
51
Homocysteine in your case is at the upper end of ideal, and no indication that it would drop through the floor.
You can't know that. If in a few weeks with a very low dose of b9 it has dropped so much, in three months, the level can drop even more.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
The conditions associated with high homocysteine (from lab-test analyzer) are common and serious diseases frequently occurring:

This test measures the levels of the amino acid homocysteine.

This test can help determine if you are folate- or vitamin B12-deficient. It can also tell if you are at increased risk of heartattack or stroke. Finally, it helps diagnose a rare inherited disorder called homocystinuria.

Homocysteine is an amino acid your body produces from another amino acid, called methionine. It is usually found in very small amounts in your body. That’s because your body convertsit efficiently into other products, such as cysteine, with the aid of vitamins B6, B12, and folate (B9). Higher homocysteine can indicate a deficiency of these vitamins [R].

Higher levels of homocysteine contribute to the narrowing and hardening of the arteries, and may increase the risk of heart disease [R].

Higher levels of homocysteine are also associated with other diseases including:

 Depression [R]
 Dementia [R, R]
 Alzheimer’s disease [R]
 Parkinson’s disease [R]
 Osteoporosis [R, R]

A high-protein meal can significantly increase homocysteine levels. Therefore, you should fast throughout the night before your blood test to ensure the most accurate results [R].

In comparison, below 5 µmol/L, which you are still far off, is associated with just one rarer and not that debilitating condition:

Homocysteine is necessary for the production of factors important for detoxification. Low homocysteine may restrict detoxification pathways that respond to oxidative stress [R].

Low homocysteine is associated with nerve damage of unknown cause (idiopathic peripheral neuropathy) [R].

Make sure your diet is well-balanced. Homocysteine is produced from the amino-acid methionine. Your diet should include enough methionine-rich foods, such as beef, lamb, turkey,pork, fish, shellfish, cheese, eggs, dairy,

Do you suffer peripheral neuropathy?
 
Messages
51
The conditions associated with high homocysteine (from lab-test analyzer) are common and serious diseases frequently occurring:



In comparison, below 5 µmol/L, which you are still far off, is associated with just one rarer and not that debilitating condition:



Do you suffer peripheral neuropathy?
I have neuropatic pain
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
For how long did you sufferer from idiopathic neuropathy?

Did the neuropathy really start with a homocysteine of 9 only? - Then you would be a rare exception.
 
Messages
51
For how long did you sufferer from idiopathic neuropathy?

Did the neuropathy really start with a homocysteine of 9 only? - Then you would be a rare exception.
No, you have not understood it correctly. My homocysteine has been high for several months, the same time I have been suffering from neuropathic pain.

In just a few weeks of consuming a low amount of b9 and b12, my homocysteine dropped from 17 to 9. Here is my concern, I have to continue taking b9 for three more months, at least to correct the b9 deficiency.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
1,243
why is your concern of too low homocysteine? i never heard of that. usually too high is the problem. what do you think will happen to you if its too low?
usually treating vitamin deficiencys do not work like that. its like vitamin K. if you have to less , you bleed. if you have too much. nothing happens so no increased clotting risk as some assume... (to my knowledge).

you should be able to lift your homocystein with methionine. its a side effect. having too much of specific proteins and too less vitamins will make your homocystein raise.
protein and vitamins need to be in a balance.

when interfering with methylation by supplementing, i always would add a cholin source.
 
Messages
51
why is your concern of too low homocysteine? i never heard of that. usually too high is the problem. what do you think will happen to you if its too low?
usually treating vitamin deficiencys do not work like that. its like vitamin K. if you have to less , you bleed. if you have too much. nothing happens so no increased clotting risk as some assume... (to my knowledge).

you should be able to lift your homocystein with methionine. its a side effect. having too much of specific proteins and too less vitamins will make your homocystein raise.
protein and vitamins need to be in a balance.

when interfering with methylation by supplementing, i always would add a cholin source.
I have read posts in this same forum and I have found on the Internet, experiences of people with low homocysteine. Having it high and low, both are a problem.

One of the causes is taking too many methylated vitamins. In 15 days of taking 1/4 of an 800 mcg pill, my homocysteine dropped to a normal level.

If my body follows the same trend, I don't know what can happen. Now I'm wondering if I should take methionine or sam-e with vitamin b9/b12 to avoid the problem.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
No, you have not understood it correctly. My homocysteine has been high for several months, the same time I have been suffering from neuropathic pain.

I've tried to help make you understand - obviously failed in a form where you could make your own conclusion - that your main concern is high homocysteine, of which you probably suffered many years, and the likelihood of associated severe diseases. But not a low homocysteine, which you never had, and associated with a rather mild condition.

Therefore, I tried to further make you aware, that your neuropathy, most likely, isn't idiopathic.

The causes are grouped broadly as follows:

Many of those causes for a neuropathy, you could have. And therefore high-time to address. Without time to address improbabilities. From my perspective. You are of course free to decide otherwise.

I have to continue taking b9 for three more months, at least to correct the b9 deficiency.

You would be really very applaudable, if you corrected your folate deficiency in another 3 months only. During the 15 years I supplemented folates every day, a total of 12 g, I haven't seen lasting functional folate sufficiency yet.

By taking b12, have you achieved the "neurological glow" effect?

Biochemical individuality again. For example, I never had neurological or mood issues.
 
Messages
51
I've tried to help make you understand - obviously failed in a form where you could make your own conclusion - that your main concern is high homocysteine, of which you probably suffered many years, and the likelihood of associated severe diseases. But not a low homocysteine, which you never had, and associated with a rather mild condition.

Therefore, I tried to further make you aware, that your neuropathy, most likely, isn't idiopathic.



Many of those causes for a neuropathy, you could have. And therefore high-time to address. Without time to address improbabilities. From my perspective. You are of course free to decide otherwise.



You would be really very applaudable, if you corrected your folate deficiency in another 3 months only. During the 15 years I supplemented folates every day, a total of 12 g, I haven't seen lasting functional folate sufficiency yet.



Biochemical individuality again. For example, I never had neurological or mood issues.
Hello. Thanks for answering. I understand what you're saying. But as you also indicate, the chemistry of the organism is individual. I base it on my blood tests. I had a folate deficiency, it was below 2, when the normal is between 2.9-16.

The doctor prescribed folic acid, I felt very bad. I decided to take methylfolate, but it kept giving me problems, until I combined it with methylcobalamin.

I spent two weeks taking a quarter of a pill of both vitamins. In that period of time I had some tests done again and my homocysteine has dropped (it was elevated) and my vitamin B9 has risen to five (within range). The doctor told me about the three months to recovery.

I raise my doubts here, because the doctors who treat me in the health system do not have much knowledge about methylation.

Even though my vitamin B9 is now in range, I still have deficiency symptoms (I have improved a little), so I ask myself two questions: am I taking the right ratio of B9/B12? And if in just 15 days my homocysteine has dropped to normal levels, could it drop even further to cause a new problem? Should I take methionine or an extra dose of protein?

I know that excessive consumption of methylated vitamins is one of the causes of low homocysteine. It is true that I have always had it high or elevated within the normal range.

I attribute my problems fundamentally to the methylation cycle, and the neuropathic pain due to b9 deficiency, since I have improved a little since I started supplementation.

Based on my own experience, I have realized that the methylation cycle is very "delicate", when trying to treat certain parts of the cycle, I have ended up causing problems in another part of it. That's why I don't rule out any possibility.

I have read the forum a lot, especially the Freddd protocol, it has helped me gather information and understand that although the levels of vitamin B9 and B12 are in the normal range, the body may require an extra contribution.

I appreciate any information any user can give me.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,435
Location
Austria
I base it on my blood tests....

Even though my vitamin B9 is now in range, I still have deficiency symptoms (I have improved a little), so I ask myself two questions: am I taking the right ratio of B9/B12? And if in just 15 days my homocysteine has dropped to normal levels, could it drop even further to cause a new problem? Should I take methionine or an extra dose of protein?

Best idea to base it on a variety of blood tests. As you may know, serum B9 and B12 do show deficiency, but too high level could just mean the body can't properly metabolize and still be deficient despite high levels. Beside homocysteine also low RBC and high MCV could point to low B9 or B12 too. However, even it those markers would also show sufficiency, it is still not sure sufficient for other metabolic process requiring B9 too.

Therefore, always best to proceed cautiously, increase doses gradually over weeks, months and years. While monitoring as many lab markers possible and symptoms changes, to adjust accordingly, and as early as possible.

If homocysteine really dropped much further, which I doubt if you get enough protein in your diet, then it would be easiest to correct by decreasing B9 and B12 slightly. Along with methionine rich foods. It definitely wouldn't be serious, extremely rare, and completely reversible.

I attribute my problems fundamentally to the methylation cycle, and the neuropathic pain due to b9 deficiency, since I have improved a little since I started supplementation.

Personally, had peripheral neuropathy due to P-5-P becoming disallowed above 25 mg/d in the EU. But need above 100 mg/d for B6 sufficiency. So I used instead Pyridoxine I still had at much higher dose, and that causes neuropathy above 100 mg/d for me. It took me about 1 year to reverse the Pyridoxine induced neuropathy by reducing the dose. But beside still not sufficient in B9.
 
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