Does lyme not cause M.E.?

[Aerose91]

Is lyme a coexisting diagnosis or is it just a trigger for M.E.? I belong to a lyme board where almost no one has exercise intolerance and other hallmark M.E. symptoms but i also have things that are specific to lyme which rarely extends to the M.E. community.

If toxins and viruses can cause M.E., why not lyme?

 

[Wishful]

My guess is that anything that triggers the immune system, or at least the t-cell and glial cell parts, can trigger ME. I'm not sure whether type I allergies can do so.

There's no reason that you can't have lyme and ME. You can even have lyme and ME that was triggered by something else.

 

[taniaaust1]

Seeing EBV and so many other things can trigger off ME.. I'd myself say that One can have lyme and ME.

 

[LINE]

I have always questioned the Lyme dx, that is not to say that people do not have it, I just think people rush to judgement based on symptomology. Lyme people are pretty sick.

 

[percyval577]

I remember to have had ticks when I was four years old. It also had some impact that never went away, I of course wasn´t aware of it, only things tended to be a bit difficult, whereas before I now remember to have been very agile.

After EBV I got uncomfortable ill. I think ticks have been the first impact.

The borrelia contain tremendous amounts of manganese (Aguire et al 2013, cf already Posey and Gheradini 2000). I think the bacteria itself (only very very few ones are found) are unimportant. However, low Mn helps me since four years, still improving. After a jaw infection there seems to be something wrong with my jawbone, having changed shape, maybe due to low Mn.

Mn is important for tissue and bone built up, generel speaking this might be dysregulated anyway. My improvement seems to be in first place due to the influence on iNOS, Filipov et al, 2004 or 2005, Filipov even has written two papers, also Chen et al 2006, I think. One of the Filipov articles is currently open access, last year the other one was.

Edit: The iNOS can act on nerves. Nerves then, I think, are a the best candidate for explaining Delayed PEM and the Possibility of Pacing (same quantity of exertion).

 

[Thinktank]

That quack Dr. Kenny de Meirleir surely believes so. he says Lyme = ME.

 

[Dechi]

That quack Dr. Kenny de Meirleir surely believes so. he says Lyme = ME.

@Thinktank I’m interested in learning more about that statement. Would you have links to articles or videos where he is stating this ?

 

[Aerose91]

.

That quack Dr. Kenny de Meirleir surely believes so. he says Lyme = ME.

Why do you believe he's a quack

 

[gbells]

Lyme can't be SEIDs. Many with SEIDs are negative for borrelia (lyme). The symptom profiles (effects) are different. Yes it can be a coinfection.

 

[Aerose91]

What is SEIDs

 

[duncan]

Lyme can't be SEIDs. Many with SEIDs are negative for borrelia (lyme). The symptom profiles (effects) are different.

This is flatly wrong.

Yes it can be a coinfection.

Of course.

 

[gbells]

Duncan please show me one study showing SEIDs patients who were positive for lyme but negative for any other infection. This would prove your point.

 

[duncan]

@gbells, SEID studies??? How many of those are there?

You may want to ask yourself another question: How many "Lyme" patients had a positive ELISA but only three or four positive IgG bands on a western blot? That technically is a negative for Borrelia. They are still sick. Wanna bet what they get diagnosed with? I hope you appreciate that this algorithm is based on the 1994 Dearborne commission to standardize Lyme testing - and they couldn't even reach a consensus. That means many of those peeps who test negative for Lyme and receive an ME/CFS diagnosis - or SEID - instead, actually have Lyme.

As for symptoms, take away the swollen knees (which don't happen nearly as often as our friends at the CDC would like you to think) and they are virtually identical.

 

[gbells]

I can see a case for European Borrelia Afzelli being a co-infection along with another one like HHV6 and cause a subtype of SEIDs. However, I don't think that American Borrelia Bugderofi can cause CFS because it doesn't block apoptosis.

 

[duncan]

I can see a case for European Borrelia Afzelli being a co-infection along with another one like HHV6 and cause a subtype of SEIDs. However, I don't think that American Borrelia can cause CFS because it doesn't block apoptosis.

This is fairly simple. Lyme can be a coinfection with ME. Any TBD can co-exist with ME/CFS. Just like pretty much any disease you can think of. Depending on how you define ME/CFS, Lyme can cause it, ie Lyme can lead to a dysfunctional immune system. What do you imagine they are trying to say with Post Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome?

 

[gbells]

This is fairly simple. Lyme can be a coinfection with ME. Any TBD can co-exist with ME/CFS. Just like pretty much any disease you can think of. Depending on how you define ME/CFS, Lyme can cause it, ie Lyme can lead to a dysfunctional immune system. What do you imagine they are trying to say with Post Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome?

The symptoms between Post Treatment Lyme Syndrome and SEIDs overlap but there is still a difference in that PTLS has chronic musculoskeletal pain and depression while SEIDs doesn't.

For PTLS:

These symptoms most commonly include pain, fatigue, depression, and cognitive deficits.

https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.12090223

 

[duncan]

he symptoms between Post Treatment Lyme Syndrome and SEIDs overlap but there is still a difference in that PTLS has chronic musculoskeletal pain and depression while SEIDs doesn't.

That's incorrect. Just plain out wrong.

You need to get your Lyme insights from a good source, and psychiatry is rarely a good place for Lyme insights.. Now, it might be helpful to know that the entire concept of PTLDS is disputed.

Do you realize that journal you're quoting from promotes central sensitization??

 

[gbells]

At least I post citations.

 

[duncan]

At least I post citations.

Cool.

 

[Aerose91]

The symptoms between Post Treatment Lyme Syndrome and SEIDs overlap but there is still a difference in that PTLS has chronic musculoskeletal pain and depression while SEIDs doesn't.

For PTLS:

https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.12090223

I disagree that post lyme must cause depression and bone pain. I have it and don't have either of those