Does Anyone Know Why GABA And Theanine Both Make Me MORE Anxious?

[Jigsaw]

Is your enzyme glutaminase not functional? That leads to more questions...

That's a distinct possibility. Something def not working as it should.

 

[eljefe19]

At least for me neither of these even touch my anxiety. In fact, nothing short of benzos really even take the edge off.

 

[Jigsaw]

At least for me neither of these even touch my anxiety. In fact, nothing short of benzos really even take the edge off.

@eljefe19 Recognise that one! Curiously, benzos act by "forcing" GABA uptake, and apparently that's what causes withdrawal symptoms and the addictive aspect, the depletion of your GABA reserves.

I've also read elsewhere that only theanine can cross the BBB, and that if you don't react to GABA, either +vely or -vely, then you have a very healthy BBB, since, so the theory goes, GABA can only have an effect if it enters the brain, so if you're untouched by it, then it isn't getting in.

I'm not necessarily convinced about that, because it's possible that there are other GABA receptors elsewhere, like possibly in the gut.

But whatever, if you don't respond positively to it, I don't see the point in taking it

 

[eljefe19]

I believe that benzos eventually cause GABA receptors to downregulate, or become less sensitive to your bodies' GABA, and that's what causes the withdrawal. I agree that they are a sledgehammer approach to anxiety but I've tried everything else.

 

[Jigsaw]

Whether it's less sensitivity, downregulation, depletion, whatever, the net result is the same

I also resort to benzos. Would much rather find a natural solution.

 

[xena]

Hey- I've read that excess Gaba can be converted back into Glutamate

"Because of the GABA shunt, which can convert GABA back into glutamine, which is then converted into glutamate, taurine supplementation may increase glutamate in some people"

 

[xena]

Also I'm guessing you know thus but p5p is necessary to convert Glutamate to Gaba... I get agitated unless I dose it twice a day

 

[Jigsaw]

Hey- I've read that excess Gaba can be converted back into Glutamate

"Because of the GABA shunt, which can convert GABA back into glutamine, which is then converted into glutamate, taurine supplementation may increase glutamate in some people"

Hi @xena

Ah! Thanks!

That's interesting.......I haven't taken taurine for a while, but it was a regular part of my daily regime for years - it's very helpful for dry eyes, and eye health in general, amongst other things.

I might try GABA again, now I've been off taurine for a few weeks, and see what happens.

And yes, I already take P5P every day without fail. My serotonin plummets if I don't.

I hadn't thought about other roles it plays, and confess I didn't know it was needed to convert glutamate to GABA.......wouldn't I be worse on P5P, if I'm reacting badly to GABA and P5P increases GABA? Even on taurine, I get huge benefits from P5P.

 

[xena]

I think it's referring to excess Gaba from supplements.. Not sure though

Amy Yasko seems to talk about Glutamate a lot, in case you haven't checked out her work on that yet

 

[xena]

Yasko also says that theanine can have a bad effect on people who are sensitive to methyl donors... I think that's comt +?

 

[Jigsaw]

I'm brain-fogged right now, hence having been off-board for a while, but I'll look at more of Yasko's stuff at some point when my brain has decided to join the party again.

As far as I recall tho, hasn't Yasko been largely discredited for much of her hypoheses on methylation?

I know it was all very popular with all the alternative docs, and I know Myhill seems (from what I've read on her website) to have adopted the Yasko approach, even to the point of producing and selling her own special supplements for it - although if you read the ingredient labels, they have all kinds of major no-no's for anyone doing the methylation protocol.

I do remember reading articles that pointed out big holes in Yasko's suppositions. Brain-fog annoyingly not allowing me to recall them today.

- Not saying methylation isn't a valid process, of course it is, but readimg through everyone's many posts on methylation, has anyone ever actually recovered using any of the many methylation protocols? I think, like most of these magic bullets, it's just one part of repairing multiple processes that have gone wonky.

I'm sure there was something pertinent to SNPs, too, in that most of them were way more common and cause far less problems than is being currently presented, but, again, can't remember the details today. I have no idea if I'm COMT plus or minus, or have any other SNPs.

I'm sensitive to tons of stuff, but currently I'm looking at iodine depletion as a possible cause of my multiple sensitivities, rather than methylation issues.

I saw a post here a while ago that said iodine was involved in methylation. Keep meaning to research and fact-find on that, because it may be that until you get your iodine levels up to scratch, re-activating rusty methylation pathways might be more problematic than they need to be.

 

[Jigsaw]

Also I'm guessing you know thus but p5p is necessary to convert Glutamate to Gaba... I get agitated unless I dose it twice a day

What doses are you taking?

I get the Source Naturals P5P, 300mg, which I divide into quarters. I figure that if I used to OK on c.100mg of pyridoxine, before chemo stuffed up more of my conversion enzymes, 75mg of P5P should be good.

What time do you take your second dose?

 

[gerard5]

I've had very very good results with clonazepam. Though it's tolerance and physical addiction profile is terrible...

But GABA supplementation on the other hand hasn't worked well for me. It just made me feel tingly and after a few hours when it wore off it made me feel worse. From what I read Gaba supplements don't cross the blood brain barrier to actually have any affect on the Gaba I'm the brain. But instead they are absorbed jn the enteric nervous system and act on the serotonin receptors there. Idk how accurate this last info is.

But basically GABA supplementation doesn't work for all and it most possibly doesn't mean elevated Gaba levels in the brain..

As for L-theanine (I use Suntheanine) I really can't say I feel anything, positive or negative.

Regards,
Arun, India.

I'm CBS ++ and at one stage L-Theanine worked wonders, life changing. But I had to place limits on my Sulfur intake due to high Sulfite dumping so I chose to stop. By then my anxiety was controlled because I had enough other nutritional in place. I was taking a Multi with P5P and additional that took care of it as long as I had the right amount so I low dosed to maybe under somewhere around less than 100mg per day. My body couldn't correctly Metabolize the High Sulfur in B6 and I must have been flushing everything, Dr Amy Yasko and heartfixer.com.

If I don't get a positive response on any one thing I question it and I always try to isolate to find out if I am correct. The beauty of Enzymes is that they protect you from other thing by shutting off and keep your vital processes going albeit starting other problems. This is one of the reasons why some people respond well to certain nutrients and others have blocks, systemic failures, or positive or negative responses to certain nutrients. Enzymes regulate down, up, mitigate, or turn on or off depending on their environment. We are all different and that is explainable by the experts. See this for more learning about the GAD enzyme; http://drjockers.com/is-your-brain-making-enough-gaba/
Good day everyone, nice thread!

 

[gerard5]

I'm brain-fogged right now, hence having been off-board for a while, but I'll look at more of Yasko's stuff at some point when my brain has decided to join the party again.

As far as I recall tho, hasn't Yasko been largely discredited for much of her hypoheses on methylation?

I know it was all very popular with all the alternative docs, and I know Myhill seems (from what I've read on her website) to have adopted the Yasko approach, even to the point of producing and selling her own special supplements for it - although if you read the ingredient labels, they have all kinds of major no-no's for anyone doing the methylation protocol.

I do remember reading articles that pointed out big holes in Yasko's suppositions. Brain-fog annoyingly not allowing me to recall them today.

- Not saying methylation isn't a valid process, of course it is, but readimg through everyone's many posts on methylation, has anyone ever actually recovered using any of the many methylation protocols? I think, like most of these magic bullets, it's just one part of repairing multiple processes that have gone wonky.

I'm sure there was something pertinent to SNPs, too, in that most of them were way more common and cause far less problems than is being currently presented, but, again, can't remember the details today. I have no idea if I'm COMT plus or minus, or have any other SNPs.

I'm sensitive to tons of stuff, but currently I'm looking at iodine depletion as a possible cause of my multiple sensitivities, rather than methylation issues.

I saw a post here a while ago that said iodine was involved in methylation. Keep meaning to research and fact-find on that, because it may be that until you get your iodine levels up to scratch, re-activating rusty methylation pathways might be more problematic than they need to be.

Welcome back then! I have taken resources from multiple sources including Yasko. It's great that I was able to have my Genomics there on Methylation. I also used Genetic Genie, I verify and cross check, Heartfixer etc., studies for explanations. One thing I found is that one left me really short on DHA and I found later that I needed much more than was recommended x20. I was miffed of sorts but my positive response was the payoff, bigtime!

No I didn't go lock step with all the nucleotide protocols but would have considered if I hadn't gotten much better. Brain fog, I found that I needed much more B12 so I am now Superloading CyanB12 and that helped me by clearing my vision, you really have to be a careful reader to find that. MethylB12 at bedtime counter the AdenoHydroxy recommendation for COMT+/- and VDR+/-. This after my discoveries that my Methionine cycle was being down regulated at BHMT probably due to a B6 problem block and needing more P5P. Trimethylglycine and Glycine caused me problems on earlier protocol mimics and personal tests so I had to ask, what does that tell me? I take Methionine to counter the expense of Sam-e due to this information also; http://aminoacidstudies.org/l-methionine/ Limits due to Sulfur intake restrictions. Before bed I slept like a baby and woke refreshed.

Brain fog I suspected problem in my protein metabolism with ammonia detox in the Urea Cycle. I asked my provider after complaining just to verify and the level was 20% over high. My choices were Arginine, Citrulline, Ornithine, after a study I settled on the last two in moderation. I got much better. I have also gathered from this blog although it is difficult to sort out, glad to be here though!

Iodine, involvement in Thyroid production, essential nutrient. There is a skin test to see if you have enough and I hear it works. If it is an essential nutrient than I would almost place money that it is involved in Methylation. The Information you get from those resources are only the major keys, there are minors that are not shown.

 

[Valentijn]

I'm CBS ++ and at one stage L-Theanine worked wonders, life changing.

I'm not doubting that theanine worked for you, but the usual CBS SNPs have no negative impact upon gene function at all.

 

[gerard5]

I'm not doubting that theanine worked for you, but the usual CBS SNPs have no negative impact upon gene function at all.

You're saying that the CBS studies are fraudulent and have no basis for any negative impact is that correct? And without any reference or scientific basis to back you up?

 

[gerard5]

What doses are you taking?

I get the Source Naturals P5P, 300mg, which I divide into quarters. I figure that if I used to OK on c.100mg of pyridoxine, before chemo stuffed up more of my conversion enzymes, 75mg of P5P should be good.

What time do you take your second dose?

This leaves me wondering where you are with your diet out of the gate. I mean avoidance of Glutamate for one. I have read where, and I could find it, that in the GAD enzyme it is bi-directional meaning excitatory or GABA (inhibitory), for instance Glutamate or Glutamic Acid table high>excitatory state.

The same holds true also with L-Theanine, some find it like a Nootropic accelerating Glutamate normally adjunctive with Caffeine(Glutamic) and proven to increase cognitive test scores. Molecularly close to Glutamate, L-Theanine could be acting like antagonist or agonist depending on other variables. Here is one resource that suggest that; http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/07/28/l-theanine-benefits-scientific-research/

and I hope you are considering to rule out GABA because after all it is on the other side of the bi-directional flow but if you are not I believe I have read where GABA supplementation will be Hypothalmic active due to no Blood Brain barrier isolation at that area and therefore at the very least mildly inhibitory in that system to some degree/calming.

Chemo is suspect here real big, like it has potential to create blocks anywhere. What sort of Chemo process was it? I'm thinking Heavy Metal transporter issues, blocks, wow I'm thinking Cobalt, will leave that to another one of you great people.

I agree on the 75mg, and if you're GAD is is unblocked you should have a notable response.

I really hope you find something soon so you're able to unwind.

 

[Mary]

@Jigsaw, @eljefe19, @xena - I've been struggling with severe insomnia for several months following a slow-taper off of 1 mg. lorazepam (on it for 10 years! in the middle of the night for sleep, ironically enough).

So I've been taking lots of l-theanine and several others things, mostly to no avail. And then read just recently that as @xena said, l-theanine could be converted to glutamate. And then read in a couple of threads and Benzo buddies that perhaps it would be better to focus on getting rid of excess glutamate, instead of trying to increase GABA.

I'd also been taking lots of l-glycine which at one time did help with sleep, but then I read again just recently that it could also be converted to glutamate, so have stopped it as well.

This all led me to calcium pyruvate and resveratrol which are glutamate scavengers - and it's been amazing. I've finally started to sleep again. I got 8 hours last night - I can't remember the last time I did that. I'm also taking niacin and lots of magnesium, and 5-htp and relora. But have pretty much cut out l-theanine and GABA supps.

I also read that glutamate is the gun, and calcium is the bullet that gets it into the cells (or something like that! it doesn't sound quite right here )- so have temporarily at least cut out my calcium supplements, though I plan to re-introduce calcium slowly, as I'm sure I need it for my bones etc.

So @eljefe19, you might want to try the pyruvate and resveratrol. I am so surprised at how well they're working - I'd almost given up the idea of getting a good night's sleep.

 

[gerard5]

I'd also been taking lots of l-glycine which at one time did help with sleep, but then I read again just recently that it could also be converted to glutamate, so have stopped it as well.

This all led me to calcium pyruvate and resveratrol which are glutamate scavengers - and it's been amazing. I've finally started to sleep again. I got 8 hours last night - I can't remember the last time I did that. I'm also taking niacin and lots of magnesium, and 5-htp and relora. But have pretty much cut out l-theanine and GABA supps.

I also read that glutamate is the gun, and calcium is the bullet that gets it into the cells (or something like that! it doesn't sound quite right here )- so have temporarily at least cut out my calcium supplements, though I plan to re-introduce calcium slowly, as I'm sure I need it for my bones etc.

Dead on, we have studied the same information. I am backing off my Glycine and Collagen again now that I really have been wanting to go with thinking that I was at the phase of trying to shore up my cartilage and frame but I am attaining towards toxic states again. Even got a little episode that looked coronary and had to get checked out Sunday.

Yeah, I have a bag of Resveratrol and it is time to get it out, 5HTP and Magnesium ditto there works great! Dropped L-Theanine also but it did serve its purpose at the time for bring me down it does intervene in NMDA.

Have read somewhere that Calcium Pyruvate is Calcium bonded and Metabolizes adding to overall Blood Calcium so I didn't but that may be a nice way to start back in with more Calcium. I seem to be sensitive Cal/Citrate at only 30% rda.

Thanks for the direction, it's good for the thread. I'm wondering if you dose P5P before bedtime, it helped my deeper sleep states. Take care for now.

 

[gerard5]

Hi @xena

And yes, I already take P5P every day without fail. My serotonin plummets if I don't.

I hadn't thought about other roles it plays, and confess I didn't know it was needed to convert glutamate to GABA.......wouldn't I be worse on P5P, if I'm reacting badly to GABA and P5P increases GABA? Even on taurine, I get huge benefits from P5P.

Hi Jigsaw,

I am very High Dopamine and Low Serotonin Theoretically.
Antidepressants really mess with me so I gave up on those. Benzodiazepines are entirely out for me due to other factors. And I do consider them to be dangerous. One thing, my main meat is Turkey Breast, High Serotonin.

Somehow something keeps draining my Serotonin and I haven't figure it all out but it's like a drain without a plug. Glutamate, Dopamine, other Neurotransmitters may be relational. When I take large amounts of Tryptophan and 5HTP I feel much better except for Tryptophan bothering my stomach so I am up to 600mg 5HTP before bedtime a very high amount that I worked slowly up to. There is a Serotonin toxicity level to watch out for though so I need to keep doing my homework and observations are key. .