Dermorphin Experience - Very Impressive Results

hamsterman

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Dermorphin is an opioid found in the giant leaf frog's skin, and is one of the chemicals found in Amazonian practice of 'Kambo'. For more background, check the Kambo thread by @Hip in 2013. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...zonian-medicine-kambo-on-a-cfs-patient.22952/

About me:
I’m mostly house-bound. The last couple months, my condition has worsened with persistent brain fog/focus issues.
My Self-Measurement (1-10 scale) is about 4.5, where 10 is complete recovery, 1 is the worst possible case.

DAILY LOG:
  • Day 1: *Took 170 mcg (.17 mg) at around 2:00 pm, no effect, easily slept, had very vivid dreams, w/ occasional nightmares. (daily score: 4.5)
  • Day 2: Noticeably reduced brain-fog, stimulus aversion. Energy slightly better. Avg Sleep (score: 7)
  • Day 3: Somewhat tired, slightly reduced brain-fog, slept easily/early (Score: 5.5)
  • Day 4: Very noticable reduced brain-fog, Energy better, Best I'd felt in months, great sleep (Score 8.5)
  • Day 5: *Took 170 mcg again at 1:30pm, mediocre day, got better later in the day. (Score 6)
  • Day 6: Felt great, was on my feet full day, inadvertently pushed myself to PEM-triggering levels, felt a bit fatigued at night, slept uninterrupted (score: 8)
  • Day 7: Slow start, but felt great again by mid-day (score: 7)
  • Day 8: Felt great, got lots of busy work done, mediocre sleep (score: 7.5)
  • Day 9: *Took 170 mcg again at 1:30pm, Felt great (in spite of mediocre sleep), got lots of busy work done (score: 8)

OVERALL EXPERIENCE:
  • Overall, went from a 4.5 to ~ 7.5, with no side effects.
  • Cut in brain-fog is very noticeable, almost to pre-ME/CFS levels.
  • The amount of 'busy-work' I've gotten done is pretty staggering. The house is suddenly clean/organized all the time.
  • Doing multi-step tasks is suddenly very doable.
  • verbal communication has improved.
  • Improved Sleep, not relying on sleep aids.
  • Energy is better, but not at pre-CFS levels.
  • Similar experience to LDN, but improvements are more dramatic, and LDN lost efficacy after 5-6 days, but DM feels like it's getting progressively better.
  • Similar improvements to other mu-opioids agonists (codeine, oxycodone, etc), but with no sedation, euphoria, gut issues, nausea.

_____________________________________________

QUICK OVERVIEW OF DERMORPHIN:

  • A mu-opioid agonist, and a potential safer alternative to morphine, due to strong pain-killing potency with much less tolerance or addiction.
  • 30–40 times more potent a pain-killer than morphine.
  • Plasma half-life is extremely short,~ 10 minutes in humans (1.5 in rats).
  • Not approved for use by the FDA, and is only available through research labs.
  • Not orally bioavailable, and must be administered subcutaneously, intranasally, or alternative method.
  • Only @Hip has previously experimented with pure DM to treat ME/CFS in 2013
  • An individual named Jox used 'Kambo' to successfully treat his severe CFS over several years. More info on @Hip experience, and Jox's experience on the thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...zonian-medicine-kambo-on-a-cfs-patient.22952/
  • More information on Opioids and ME/CFS can be found here: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...some-of-my-neurological-me-cfs-symptoms.22751
DANGER/RISKS of DERMORPHIN:
Mu-opioid agonist overdoses can potentially cause respiratory failure & death. It's unknown if DM affects the respiratory system in the same way, but to be safe, it's best that we assume it does. Long-term risks are still unknown, other than anecdotal feedback from long-term KAMBO users, which is unreliable since DM is only one of 8 active compounds in Kambo.
Long-term mu-opioid agonists are associated with memory/cognitive deficits, but this is believed to be from their negative effects on REM sleep. In my experience, DM helps with cognition/memory/REM sleep, at least in the short term.


DOSING FOR CFS/ME
  • Opioids appear to cut brain-fog, and alleviate many other CFS symptoms at their appropriate analgesic (pain-killing) doses.
  • 200 mcg of DM would equate to a typical pain-killing dose based on researched potency in rats. For further reference, this would be roughly equivalent of 12.5 mg of Vicodin or 10 mg of oral Oxycodone.
  • @Hip used 100 mcg and got a very strong/noticeable affect.
  • My dose was 170 mcg, and I had similar results. (I'm 210 lbs)
  • It's possible it works just as well at lower doses, but I haven't tried this yet.
  • The level that would constitute a dangerous dose is unknown. One individual on bluelight.org took 1500 mcg in a failed attempt to get a recreational 'high' from it. This is roughly 10x the dose I'm taking.


FREQUENCY OF DOSING:
  • @Hip discusses that the dose frequency may be related to the length of time that morphine withdrawal can potentially affect/regulate NMDA receptors. Based on this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10516325
  • Jox found using 'Kambo' once a week worked well.
  • @Hip's DM experience suggested that 4-5 days would be optimal.
  • I’m currently experimenting with dosing every 4 days

LONG-TERM BENEFITS FOR CFS/ME
This is tough to determine, since very few pwme take opioids for long periods of time due to their risk, as well as tolerance/dependence. I'm aware of at least two individuals who've been on Methadone for over a year for chronic pain, and they've said the CFS/ME benefit remains, and in one case, the individual said it continued to improve for the first year and has since stabilized. This is also supported by Jox's experience with KAMBO.


_____________________________________________________________

PREPARATION OF DOSE:

To take it intranasally, check out @Hip's thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...zonian-medicine-kambo-on-a-cfs-patient.22952/

Subcutaneous dose preparation:
Although dermorphine is not orally bioavailable, it may be wise to wear a mask & gloves when preparing it to avoid any accidents. Remember that in its pure form, it’s 30-40 times more potent than morphine. Also, before starting, make sure to fully understand the difference between mcg (microgram) and mg (milligram). 1 mg = 1000 mcg.
For ready storage, I opted to use bacteriostatic water vials since they make preparation easier, and minimize infection risk.

Steps for preparation:
  1. Scoop out 30mg of powder and place on a dry mirror or dish. Ideally, use a quality digital scale. Inexpensive digital scales (under $50) are notoriously inaccurate at the mg level. Another option is a 30 mg spoon, but these are also inaccurate, and will often yield +- 5mg from the target.
  2. Use a syringe (.3ccs is fine) and fill with bac-water from vial.
  3. Carefully & slowly squirt bac-water in syringe on powder. DM powder is extremely soluble, so it will mix almost instantly.
  4. Draw the mixed solution back into syringe.
  5. Inject back into the bac-water vial.
  6. Repeat steps 3-5 again for remaining residue on mirror/dish.
  7. Mix vile by slowly rolling. Keep refrigerated, and minimize shaking. (this is to minimize infection risk)

Once the vile is ready, administering the proper dose is easy, and just involves filling the syringe up to a specific line/unit. But this requires figuring out how many mcgs are in a line/unit. Rather than go over the math, I'll just provide some examples below. These all assume a typical 3/10cc insulin syringe with 30 units)

example 1: 30 ml vile, 30 mg of DM powder --> 11 mcgs per syringe line (my setup)
example 2: 20 ml vile, 20 mg of DM powder --> 11 mcgs per syringe line
example 3: 20 ml vile, 30 mg of DM powder --> 16.5 mcgs per syringe line
example 4: 30 ml vile, 20 mg of DM powder --> 7.33 mcgs per syringe line
example 5: 30 ml vile, 27.3 mg of DM powder --> 10 mcgs per syringe line (easiest for dosing purposes)

Using example 1 or 2, (11 mcgs per syringe line), if we want to administer 150 mcgs, we’d fill the syringe to about 13.5 units. (150/11 ≈ 13.5 )

For instructions on the actual injection, use an online video guide for best practices:


WHERE TO GET EVERYTHING?
Everything above is available at Amazon except the Dermorphin. As mentioned above, Dermorphin is only available through research labs. US labs are by far the most reliable source but have become difficult to buy from, as they are becoming more demanding of proof that the buyer is a legitimate research facility. The 2nd option is to buy from China/Alibaba, but this is of course less trustworthy. The good news is that once you have a good source, a single gram can last for years assuming it doesn't spoil.
 

Hip

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Wow, that's a pretty positive result so far, @hamsterman! You are the first ME/CFS patient I know who has tried pure dermorphin, after I posted my original experiment with this peptide back in 2013.

Just for reference, I will post my own 2013 experience with dermorphin below, which comes from this thread. These are the positive effects I experienced from a 100 microgram (mcg) dose of intranasal dermorphin (snorting the diluted dermorphin powder into my nose), effects which lasted for 3 days after this single dose:
• My chronic inflammatory sinusitis disappeared.
• The constant sense of inflammation in my brain and head disappeared.
• Chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms such as the brain fog (mental confusion), sensory hypersensitivity (the horrible autism-like over-sensitivity to sounds, light, etc) were noticeably improved.
• My energy levels increased, but this was just a mild increase.
• My generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) symptoms disappeared (I have GAD as a comorbid condition with my chronic fatigue syndrome).
• A large patch of psoriasis I had on my leg for years substantially cleared up around 24 hours after taking the dermorphin, which was quite remarkable.
• After taking dermorphin my constantly cold hands and feet (bad blood circulation and vasoconstriction) became warm. So dermorphin seemed to temporarily improve my blood circulation, though this only lasted a day or so.
There were also some negative effects I experienced on day 4, detailed on the thread, which were the reason I did not continue with dermorphin (but I think those negative effects may just be idiosyncratic to me, and may not appear in other patients).

The fact that both myself and now @hamsterman experienced substantial improvements in ME/CFS symptoms from dermorphin does add credence to the story of Jox, who finds the Amazonian frog secretion called kambo, which contains dermorphin, puts his ME/CFS into remission, provided that he takes kambo regularly. So there would seem to be something of scientific interest in kambo / dermorphin as an ME/CFS treatment.



In my experiment, I found that dermorphin works best for brain fog and the sensory hypersensitivity of ME/CFS, and has strong anti-inflammatory effects, and possibly some anti-autoimmune effects (as my psoriasis rapidly cleared up); but its benefits on energy levels were less pronounced. Seems like your experience was similar.

It will be very interesting to hear about your further experiments with dermorphin. In particular, it will be interesting to see what both lower doses can do, and also slightly higher doses.

But in general I don't think it would be wise for ME/CFS patients to experiment with dermorphin, as the lethal dose is measured in micrograms, so you could easily kill yourself if you made any mistake with dosage.



In terms of the mechanism of action by which dermorphin alleviates ME/CFS symptoms, note that dermorphin's half-life is very short, just 1.3 minutes in rats (ref: here), so this substance rapidly leaves your bloodstream within several minutes of you taking it. So its affects on the mu-opioid receptors are presumably just transient.

Yet the substantial benefits on ME/CFS symptoms appear to last for at least 3 days after taking a single dose of dermorphin. So how can that be?

One idea is that dermorphin may be overstimulating the mu-opioid receptors during the very short time it is in your body, so that afterwards the receptors may down-regulate (since there is rapid tolerance build-up with opioids). And maybe it's actually the down-regulation that leads to the therapeutic effect. Then after a few days, the down-regulation wears off, and the therapeutic effect ends.


Another possible explanation is based on the fact that opioids modulate NMDA receptor-mediated neurotransmission: this study indicates that morphine alters NMDA receptor-mediated neurotransmission in the nucleus accumbens, and these effects persist one week after morphine withdrawal. So morphine can create NMDA receptor effects in the brain that persist many days after the drug has left the body.


And note that morphine withdrawal increases glutamate uptake, and increases the expression of the glutamate transporter GLT-1 in the hippocampus (see this post). This is another possible explanation of why there are major improvements in symptoms the in the days after taking dermorphin.
 
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hamsterman

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In my experiment, I found that dermorphin works best for brain fog and the sensory hypersensitivity of ME/CFS, and has strong anti-inflammatory effects, and possibly some anti-autoimmune effects (as my psoriasis rapidly cleared up); but its benefits on energy levels were less pronounced. Seems like your experience was similar.

It will be very interesting to hear about your further experiments with dermorphin. In particular, it will be interesting to see what both lower doses can do, and also slightly higher doses.
I'll probably try some lower doses in a couple weeks. It is a shame that you experienced mild psychosis on the 4rth day. I wonder if trying a lower dose might alleviate this, or dosing every 4 days may keep this from happening.

It is possible that DM improves autoimmune issues. The last 10 days, I've have had improved/regular bowel movements, and no gut discomfort, which is typical of my Crohn's going into remission. But this could be a coincidence, since this can happen at random. I've seen Kambo user's suggest that it improves AI issues and gut issues, but there just aren't any studies, so everything is anecdotal, and it could be from another component.
 

Hip

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I'll probably try some lower doses in a couple weeks. It is a shame that you experienced mild psychosis on the 4rth day. I wonder if trying a lower dose might alleviate this, or dosing every 4 days may keep this from happening.
I might at some point soon try some substantially lower doses, to see if I can still get the benefits but without the side effects. For example, I might try 10 mcg instead of the 100 mcg dose I used.
 

junkcrap50

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IMPORTANT REMINDER!
Note that dermorphin can cause fatal overdoses in microgram amounts, so you need to know exactly what you are doing before experimenting with pure dermorphin, and you need to be able to measure out tiny microgram doses very accurately, else you may accidentally kill yourself through overdosing.
 

junkcrap50

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What exactly is the mechanism? I'm still unclear about it.

Why would it not be similar to the mechanism of LDN? (I know LDN blocks the opioid receptor, but only temporarily in order to stimulate a boost in natural opioid receptor agonists (enkephalins & endorphins), which provide the anti-inflammatory effects.)

How would taking pure met-enkephalin peptide be different? It to is a mu-opioid receptor agonist (and delta-opioid receptor), though perhaps weaker. It has a very short half-life (minutes). It is also a Opioid Growth Factor receptor (OGFr) agonist. I would think that using met-enkephalin would be much safer than Dermorphin. Tailor Made Compounding offers pure met-enkephalin peptide.
 

Hip

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Where do you get it from?
I would NOT suggest any ME/CFS patients try this, because like any opioid, the fatal dose of dermorphin is not much higher than the therapeutic dose. And since dermorphin doses are measured in micrograms, it would be very easy to miscalculate your dose, which could have lethal effects. This is particularly an issue given that ME/CFS patients have brain fog, and so are more prone to making mistakes of calculation.

But I would like to see some scientific research into dermorphin as a possible ME/CFS treatment. And I also I am curious as to the mechanism of action, as that could throw some light on the nature of ME/CFS.

In any case, dermorphin is not generally for sale; it can only be obtained from laboratory chemical suppliers, and it is not sold for human consumption. Though there have been clinical trials on the pain-relieving effect of dermorphin on humans.



Is it dependency forming like all other opioids.
Dermorphin leaves the body rapidly, and there are no noticeable psychoactive effects when you take dermorphin at the doses I used, which is 100 micrograms intranasal. So I would guess that dependency would not occur at that dose level, or would be minimal, especially if you only take it once every three days.

People who have tried higher 500 mcg doses of dermorphin recreationally have not found the psychoactive effects particularly enjoyable (it can cause anxiety and dissociative depersonalization), so is not likely to become a drug of abuse, which probably explains why it can be bought legally, and is not a controlled drug.

You can see the reports here of several people who took around 500 micrograms of dermorphin intranasally for recreational purposes.
 
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hamsterman

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Is it dependency forming like all other opioids. Where do you get it from?
No it isnt. I feel nothing after I take it. No euphoria, no sedation, nothing. Others have said the same, and rat studies seem to suggest this as well. This is what makes it unique, and why it's being investigated as an alternative for morphine.

At higher doses, it may cause anxiety/depersonalization issues, but nothing pleasant.

PM me if you want source information.
 

hamsterman

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What exactly is the mechanism? I'm still unclear about it.

Why would it not be similar to the mechanism of LDN? (I know LDN blocks the opioid receptor, but only temporarily in order to stimulate a boost in natural opioid receptor agonists (enkephalins & endorphins), which provide the anti-inflammatory effects.)

How would taking pure met-enkephalin peptide be different? It to is a mu-opioid receptor agonist (and delta-opioid receptor), though perhaps weaker. It has a very short half-life (minutes). It is also a Opioid Growth Factor receptor (OGFr) agonist. I would think that using met-enkephalin would be much safer than Dermorphin. Tailor Made Compounding offers pure met-enkephalin peptide.
I would never suggest that I understand it's mechanism, or that I believe that it shares the same mechanism of LDN. I just noticed that of all the therapies I've tried, it feels most similar to LDN. (it's better, but similar)

I have basically been experimenting with every mu-opioid agonist that I can get my hands on over the last year. The half-lives of these opioids have varied from 20 minutes, to 8 hours. All of them cut brain-fog, but NONE of them are like Dermorphin. Dermorphin is the only one that doesn't cause euphoria or the horrible side-effects associated with opioids (sedation, nausea, dependency, withdrawal).

This peculiarity is supported by research using rats as well, and is why DM is being looked at as a safer alternative analgesic to morphine.

But, as @Hip states, this does not mean that it can't still be potentially lethal at high doses. As I've stated in my initial post, it should be treated with the same precautions as other opioids, and it's best to assume that it does cause respiratory failure at high doses. Maybe it does become 'sedative' at higher doses... I don't know.
 

junkcrap50

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I would never suggest that I understand it's mechanism, or that I believe that it shares the same mechanism of LDN. I just noticed that of all the therapies I've tried, it feels most similar to LDN. (it's better, but similar)
Right. LDN is just the other thing besides morphine and other opioids that I know of that stimulates the mu-opioid receptor. I'm sure Dermorphin has several other effects not yet discovered.

I also thought pure met-enkephalin would be a much safer alternative and easy to try while working on the mu-opioid receptor.

I have basically been experimenting with every mu-opioid agonist that I can get my hands on over the last year.
Do you mind sharing? You could PM. They're all pretty dangerous and/or illegal. I have little to no interest in trying them or dermorphin even. Just wondering what other kinds of mu- agonists are out there and how far others are willing to experiment.

Have you heard of RB-101, an enkephalin reuptake inhibitor with no depending forming or respiratory suppression. It is likely because "rather than stimulating opioid receptors with exogenous drugs, the levels of opioid peptides are only increased slightly from natural levels, thus avoiding overstimulation and upregulation of the opioid receptors." Kyotorphin is also a similar to RB-101, but naturally occuring in the brain. I have no idea if you can get RB-101 or Kyotorphin anywhere, came across it from your bluelight.org link and searching.

What made you try or investigate them? Your experience from LDN?

All of them cut brain-fog,
WOW! Interesting! Have you experimented with any nootropics (eg: selank/semax, noopep, racetams, etc.) and could you compare their brain-fog benefits to Dermorphin?

  • Cut in brain-fog is very noticeable, almost to pre-ME/CFS levels.
  • The amount of 'busy-work' I've gotten done is pretty staggering. The house is suddenly clean/organized all the time.
Do you feel like it has any dopamine effect?

  • Similar experience to LDN, but improvements are more dramatic, and LDN lost efficacy after 5-6 days, but DM feels like it's getting progressively better.
Have you experimented with various LDN dosing amounts and schedules apart from 4.5mg at bedtime? Some report better effects at a dose less than 4.5mg. Others benefit form taking 9mg. Morning vs bedtime dosing also has reports of better benefits. I too noticed an improvement with LDN and quickly lost it's effect. It's so random that I don't know where to start with experimenting with LDN.
 
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hamsterman

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Right. LDN is just the other thing besides morphine and other opioids that I know of that stimulates the mu-opioid receptor. I'm sure Dermorphin has several other effects not yet discovered.

I also thought pure met-enkephalin would be a much safer alternative and easy to try while working on the mu-opioid receptor.

Do you mind sharing? You could PM. They're all pretty dangerous and/or illegal. I have little to no interest in trying them or dermorphin even. Just wondering what other kinds of mu- agonists are out there and how far others are willing to experiment.

Have you heard of RB-101, an enkephalin reuptake inhibitor with no depending forming or respiratory suppression. It is likely because "rather than stimulating opioid receptors with exogenous drugs, the levels of opioid peptides are only increased slightly from natural levels, thus avoiding overstimulation and upregulation of the opioid receptors." Kyotorphin is also a similar to RB-101, but naturally occuring in the brain. I have no idea if you can get RB-101 or Kyotorphin anywhere, came across it from your bluelight.org link and searching.

What made you try or investigate them? Your experience from LDN?


WOW! Interesting! Have you experimented with any nootropics (eg: selank/semax, noopep, racetams, etc.) and could you compare their brain-fog benefits to Dermorphin?

Do you feel like it has any dopamine effect?

Have you experimented with various LDN dosing amounts and schedules apart from 4.5mg at bedtime? Some report better effects at a dose less than 4.5mg. Others benefit form taking 9mg. Morning vs bedtime dosing also has reports of better benefits. I too noticed an improvement with LDN and quickly lost it's effect. It's so random that I don't know where to start with experimenting with LDN.
No dopamine effect.

Yes, I've tried noopep, several racetams, never tried Selank though. The racetams didn't seem to make much difference, and piracetam actually made me tired. Noopep helped a bit with memory, but I already had to be at a 'better than average' state to notice it. I may try it again in the future.


I first noticed I was a 'opiate responder' after I was prescribed codeine (for a bad throat issue). Then again, when I was prescribed vicodin (for a broken finger). The fact that opioids can relieve brain-fog has been discussed several times on this forum. Here's an example: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...some-of-my-neurological-me-cfs-symptoms.22751

Personally, I had no intention of going on an opiate for any length of time. Then I tried LDN as an alternative.
I've done every imaginable dose with LDN at every time of day and duration. For whatever reason, I couldnt get the benefit to continue for more than 5-6 days. I was very excited about LDN initially, because I thought I had finally found something that significantly helped me, but I just couldnt make it work again, no matter what.
So after about a year of trying, I just gave up.

Then about a year ago, I saw how improved my friend was after being on methadone for a year. He had EBV triggered CFS/ME, and went from housebound to working again. It was pretty startling.

So I tried methadone for a few weeks, and I noticed the same cut in brain-fog, but I also had an uncomfortable feeling, a weird combination of nausea and sedation that I didn't like.

So I decided to try a whole bunch more, to see if any of them didn't cause this uncomfortable feeling. All of them were legal, except one, (you can probably guess what it is based on the half-lives I included). All of them were at low, beginner doses. All of them caused euphoria, and all caused unpleasant side effects.

And then I tried DM, and holy crap. I'm still kinda in shock. It's just not letting up. I'm expecting to stop working anyday, but it's actually getting better with each day. I will experiment with lower doses, and taking it once every 5 days in the coming weeks.
 

hamsterman

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Dermorphin is the only medication that makes a difference in your symptoms? What dose did you try ?
Sorry for the late response. So far it's been the only thing that has significantly helped me for over a month. It's been nearly 3 months now, and I still seem to get the benefit. I hope it continues. As far as dose, I'm using 120 mcg. I dilute it with water (bac water), and it seems to spoil/degrade after about a month, so I make a new batch every month.