Demonology self help: Adam Blai

[PeterPositive]

Authors of books are usually very biased. They have to account to no one. It's non-science.

Sorry I don't get this. You claimed mind = brain as it was a fact just a few posts ago. That's equally non-science, as there is not enough evidence to jump to such a conclusion. Even less to state it as a fact.

We're talking about competing hypothesis. If you want to be fair-minded you will have to look into all the available evidence. Bias is not much of an issue. Let the evidence speak. Almost all Radin's book are about evidence, not about his personal belief.

 

[adreno]

We're talking about competing hypothesis. If you want to be fair-minded you will have to look into all the available evidence. Bias is not much of an issue. Let the evidence speak. Almost all Radin's book are about evidence, not about his personal belief.

Books are not peer-reviewed, the author is not accountable. They are not "evidence speaking". A meta-analysis, or thesis, would be. Books are not scientific papers.

 

[adreno]

Sorry I don't get this. You claimed mind = brain as it was a fact just a few posts ago. That's equally non-science, as there is not enough evidence to jump to such a conclusion. Even less to state it as a fact.

You don't seem to understand the difference between belief and probability, what is possible and is plausible. Nothing is 100% certain, but there is a large body of evidence supporting the view that mind=brain. This makes it a plausible model in my opinion. This is not non-science, or random belief.

Your extreme relativistic viewpoint, that since nothing can be proven beyond any doubt, then every opinion or viewpoint (model) is equally valid or plausible. It isn't. Science is about probabilities, not possibilities. This is my final post, since I find I have to repeat this over and over.

 

[PeterPositive]

No. But if those bits are organized into for example a picture, and I perceive it, then meaning in generated in my mind.

Yes but at the machine level the bits have specific meaning for the CPU to grab data from memory, apply simple calculations or logical operations etc... all this meaning come from the creative process of one or more conscious minds.

My point is that we have no idea how semiosis is generated in nature, how cells exchange specified information etc... There's a whole new field called Biosemiotics that attempts to investigate the problem:

Complexity science has moved science away from a linear mechanistic view of the
world to one based on nonlinear dynamics, evolutionary development, and systems
thinking. But, it is still far from explaining how life and signification could emerge
through physical and chemical evolution.

http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12304-012-9151-7.pdf

So again philosophy is an important player here, as it drives the inquiry in a very specific direction.
Anyways, I think we're getting off topic. Back to demons

 

[PeterPositive]

You don't seem to understand the difference between belief and probability, what is possible and is plausible. Nothing is 100% certain, but there is a large body of evidence supporting the view that mind=brain. This makes it a plausible model in my opinion. This is not non-science, or random belief.

Fair enough, if it's in your opinion
To be honest the current understanding of consciousness is extremely primitive and approximate that it doesn't even account for the "easy problem of consciousness", let alone the "hard one" which is phenomenology, qualia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

As I have already pointed out the current body of evidence, aka neural correlates, would perfectly fit in many (if not all) other explanatory frameworks, including dualism, idealism etc... so there is objectively no primacy in the materialist reductionist approach.

Your extreme relativistic viewpoint, that since nothing can be proven beyond any doubt, then every opinion or viewpoint (model) is equally valid or plausible. It isn't. Science is about probabilities, not possibilities. This is my final post, since I find I have to repeat this over and over.

Since we can't even answer the question of what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for consciousness to exist, I find it very hard to take any probability estimates seriously. These values are at best derived from gross oversimplifications and lots of handwaving.

 

[xrunner]

The words of someone as respectable and credible as the Catholic Church's chief exorcist do carry a particular weight.

There have been reports of those in the Catholic Church doing things which would seem to go against their professed belief system.

@Esther12 I find your argument preposterous and wicked.

Nobody in their right mind or with a grain of intellectual honesty would think for e.g. that all parents are bad just because some have abused their children or spouses. Or nurses or doctors or teachers or police or military personnel or media people etc. are all bad just because a few individuals in those professions have done something evil like purposefully abusing or murdering the elderly or patients, children or prisoners etc.

There are over 400 thousand priests in that church all of which, with a few exceptions, do only good and charitable work at the service of others, especially the most vulnerable and poor people in society.
There are thousands of priests working in missions around the world who risk their lives on a daily basis, some have refused to leave in order to stay with the community they serve. Some have been killed, about 20 last year without counting the lay missionaries and those gone missing or tortured.
Not to mention those that have died in the years past including thousands in nazi or russian or other concentration camps. You probably never heard for e.g. of Fr Maximilan Kolbe or Fr Walter Ciszek or Cardinal van Thuan (the few that come to mind now but there are many others) just to give an idea even to the most prejudiced or perhaps not.

Apart from that, Fr Amorth in his nineties now, has spent his whole life at the service of people who suffer greatly and nobody else can help, working flat out day in day out from early morning to late night, no hols. You have clearly no idea of the dedication of priests like him.

As for my experience over the past couple of years I have met a dozen of them and its’ possibly the most caring and loving people I have ever met in my whole life and by the way the only people that never asked me any money for their time or services, even refusing voluntary donations.

PS: I can't understand why people who clearly have no interest in this topic seem compelled to post.

 

[xrunner]

And just because a priest believes something he says (i.e., is not lying) doesn't make what he says true.

The reasons reports from exorcists are likely to be credible are discussed in detail in the video posted by Jarod on Adam Blai.

What I can add from what I know personally is that any exorcism is not an exercise between two people, the priest and the patient. It involves other priests and/or lay people from the church, relatives or friends of the patients are involved, medical professionals may be involved and each case has to be justified by excluding medical or other scientifically explainable phenomena, has to be authorised and documented.

Anybody reporting a case would only report what actually happened or it could be easily disproven.
Also bear in mind that exorcists are a minority not much loved, at least in some quarters of the church. Over the last couple of centuries some have tried their best to stamp out this ministry and there's plenty of envious people who would be too willing to exploit any false reports.

Having said that, we are all entitled to our own views.
Mine is based on the people I have met, the exorcisms I have seen, the manifestations I have witnessed, rather than an "abstract" belief.

 

[xrunner]

and inquisition.

There's no doubt that some unchristian things have been carried out over the centuries, since the beginning actually starting with the betrayals of Judas and Peter, as far as christianity is concerned. But so have in every religion or human endeavour for that matter.

However, coming back to the subject matter of this thread I find it extremely interesting that there seems to be a correlation between the periods in which the deliverance and exorcism ministries were very much devalued, almost abandoned and the unchristian things of the crusades and inquisition. And so it happened during the past century with the most recent crimes of abuse etc.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that, towards the end of the 19th century, Pope Leo XIII during a mystical experience had a prophetic vision which he incorporated into a deliverance prayer, which again some managed to get rid off from liturgy in the 60s :

“...These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be..."

 

[Esther12]

@Esther12 I find your argument preposterous and wicked.

Nobody in their right mind or with a grain of intellectual honesty would think for e.g. that all parents are bad just because some have abused their children or spouses. Or nurses or doctors or teachers or police or military personnel or media people etc. are all bad just because a few individuals in those professions have done something evil like purposefully abusing or murdering the elderly or patients, children or prisoners etc.

There are over 400 thousand priests in that church all of which, with a few exceptions, do only good and charitable work at the service of others, especially the most vulnerable and poor people in society.
There are thousands of priests working in missions around the world who risk their lives on a daily basis, some have refused to leave in order to stay with the community they serve. Some have been killed, about 20 last year without counting the lay missionaries and those gone missing or tortured.
Not to mention those that have died in the years past including thousands in nazi or russian or other concentration camps. You probably never heard for e.g. of Fr Maximilan Kolbe or Fr Walter Ciszek or Cardinal van Thuan (the few that come to mind now but there are many others) just to give an idea even to the most prejudiced or perhaps not.

Do you think I said that all Catholic priests are evil?

Apart from that, Fr Amorth in his nineties now, has spent his whole life at the service of people who suffer greatly and nobody else can help, working flat out day in day out from early morning to late night, no hols. You have clearly no idea of the dedication of priests like him.

As for my experience over the past couple of years I have met a dozen of them and its’ possibly the most caring and loving people I have ever met in my whole life and by the way the only people that never asked me any money for their time or services, even refusing voluntary donations.

PS: I can't understand why people who clearly have no interest in this topic seem compelled to post.

I don't think that spending one's life performing exorcisms is providing any worthwhile service to people.

A thread on 'Demonology' is surely going to be interesting to all!

 

[JAM]

"PS: I can't understand why people who clearly have no interest in this topic seem compelled to post."
Because it is harmful! I have no interest in aliens, so don't post in that thread. No one is saying "you are sick because aliens!" Saying people are sick because they are possessed by demons is cruel, ridiculous, and ignorant, so I will ridicule.

 

[xrunner]

Twisting what other people have said is hardly helpful.

This is what @PeterPositive wrote earlier:
"What is difficult to reconcile is what happens with these few people that are admitted to a full rite at the Vatican for example. This is no joke. 98% of the people is simply referred to a doctor or a psychiatrist. It's the remaining 2% that doesn't fit with the usual explanations."

From wikipedia:
"The Catholic rite for a formal exorcism, called a "Major Exorcism", is given in Section 11 of the Rituale Romanum.[4][5] The Ritual lists guidelines for conducting an exorcism, and for determining when a formal exorcism is required.[6] Priests are instructed to carefully determine that the nature of the affliction is not actually a psychological or physical illness before proceeding.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism

This is what I know: Anybody who wants to receive a major exorcism has to provide medical evidence that their problem is not a medical one.

I don't think that spending one's life performing exorcisms is providing any worthwhile service to people.

The people I personally know have all benefited from this ministry and judging from the waiting lists, as it takes months to get an appointment with a major exorcist, there seems a lot of people who find it worthwhile.

 

[andre79]

"PS: I can't understand why people who clearly have no interest in this topic seem compelled to post."
Because it is harmful! I have no interest in aliens, so don't post in that thread. No one is saying "you are sick because aliens!" Saying people are sick because they are possessed by demons is cruel, ridiculous, and ignorant, so I will ridicule.

I don't see what's harmful about the exorcism. First of all, if you have a physical or mental illness,you are excluded of the ritual. If I go now to the Vatican and tell them: you see father, i get grumpy sometimes they will say no no no, it's not a demon, it's the liver and they would send right away with the hepatologist.

So, what we have here is a very small group of people (only 2%) that really don't have options given by conventional medicine. So what are they supposed to do? Just wait to die? It may seem a really desperate thing to do, but aren't we all here desperate to get better? I think if anyone can understand this, is a CFS sufferer.

Even in the worst case escenary that the ritual doesn't work, it won't make them any worse, they would remain exactly the same. But here's the interesting thing, according to @PeterPositive most of them seems to respond well. Do you think that these persons regret doing the exorcism? I think they don't even charge you, so what's to lose?

I am not saying it works but i don't see the damage either.

 

[JAM]

I don't see what's harmful about the exorcism. First of all, if you have a physical or mental illness,you are excluded of the ritual.

If you think any problem is being caused by a demon you are delusional/ have mental illness. Zeus doesn't throw lightening bolts, witches don't fly, and demons don't/ didn't cause the plague or any other illness. Saying that any of that is true is delusional.

So, what we have here is a very small group of people (only 2%) that really don't have options given by conventional medicine. So what are they supposed to do? Just wait to die? It may seem a really desperate thing to do, but aren't we all here desperate to get better? I think if anyone can understand this, is a CFS sufferer.
Even in the worst case escenary that the ritual doesn't work, it won't make them any worse, they would remain exactly the same. But here's the interesting thing, according to @PeterPositive most of them seems to respond well. Do you think that these persons regret doing the exorcism? I think they don't even charge you, so what's to lose?

I am not saying it works but i don't see the damage either.

I was one of those people for the first 38 years of my life, and that is only if the treatment I am doing now works. I was told that god was punishing me, that I must have been bad, when I was 4! I had preachers lay their hands on me and speak in tongues, and when it didn't cure me they blamed me. It is harmful and cruel. If it is a child, it is child abuse. Period. If it is an adult who is desperate it is unethical and immoral. Period. The problems are numerous:
1. It doesn't work, there is no evidence that it works, common sense dictates that it is a load of crap on level with talking snakes and zombies.
2. When it doesn't work the blame is on the victim, not the perpetrator. You used the wrong priest, didn't pray hard enough, have original sin, blah, blah, blah.
3. It is psychological torture to think the reason you are doubled over in pain, with tears running down your face, shaking, with hot and cold flashes, is because you gave your little sister a dirty look earlier that day, or your room must not be clean enough, or you lied to your mom when she asked if you ate cake for breakfast. (because all of those are sins) My parents didn't make me think that, their church did. All of those happened to me before the age of 5, it didn't get any better.
4. In the eyes of the church demons are an excuse for anything, murder, infidelity, hating gay people (because gay people are possessed, obviously. ) You are saying they are right, that the pain we experience that we can't explain must come from within us, in the form of a demon, if it isn't a demon they can exorcise then you just aren't a good enough Catholic, Christian, Muslim, insert your religion here.

 

[andre79]

If you think any problem is being caused by a demon you are delusional/ have mental illness. Zeus doesn't throw lightening bolts, witches don't fly, and demons don't/ didn't cause the plague or any other illness. Saying that any of that is true is delusional.

I was one of those people for the first 38 years of my life, and that is only if the treatment I am doing now works. I was told that god was punishing me, that I must have been bad, when I was 4! I had preachers lay their hands on me and speak in tongues, and when it didn't cure me they blamed me. It is harmful and cruel. If it is a child, it is child abuse. Period. If it is an adult who is desperate it is unethical and immoral. Period. The problems are numerous:
1. It doesn't work, there is no evidence that it works, common sense dictates that it is a load of crap on level with talking snakes and zombies.
2. When it doesn't work the blame is on the victim, not the perpetrator. You used the wrong priest, didn't pray hard enough, have original sin, blah, blah, blah.
3. It is psychological torture to think the reason you are doubled over in pain, with tears running down your face, shaking, with hot and cold flashes, is because you gave your little sister a dirty look earlier that day, or your room must not be clean enough, or you lied to your mom when she asked if you ate cake for breakfast. (because all of those are sins) My parents didn't make me think that, their church did. All of those happened to me before the age of 5, it didn't get any better.
4. In the eyes of the church demons are an excuse for anything, murder, infidelity, hating gay people (because gay people are possessed, obviously. ) You are saying they are right, that the pain we experience that we can't explain must come from within us, in the form of a demon, if it isn't a demon they can exorcise then you just aren't a good enough Catholic, Christian, Muslim, insert your religion here.

I am sorry that you have such a childhood trauma, no child should have to be treated that way. And of course, no child deserve to be sick, but it happens. Not because he didn't behave or did bad in the school, or didn't go to mass. It just happens. I don't have an explanation.

My experience is very different from yours. I was raised in a catholic, very practicant family. I don't remember being threated. If anything, my parents told that God loves me, and forgives me and i am not supposed to be perfect. Religion didn't mess me up, it made me better person, in the sense of trying to help others, not judging.

I acknowledge that religion has been used in wrong ways, causing wars, deaths, hates. But if you use a car to run over a person, doesn't mean the car is bad, it means that you are not using right. I think that we as a humanity, would reach another evolution level, not when religion is erased, but when we learn to live with the difference respecting and tolerating each other.

About the exorcism, as i said before i don't know if it works. But i am not arrogant enough to dismiss a phenomenum just because i don't understand it.

And this is my last post in this thread. Again, i respect your point of view but i don't share it.

 

[JAM]

I am sorry that you have such a childhood trauma, no child should have to be treated that way. And of course, no child deserve to be sick, but it happens. Not because he didn't behave or did bad in the school, or didn't go to mass. It just happens. I don't have an explanation.

Thank you for acknowledging my experience. It is ok to say "I don't know". We don't have an explanation for a lot of things. Putting a crazy explanation in place of I don't know is very harmful though, and why I speak up about this abuse, to children or adults.

I acknowledge that religion has been used in wrong ways, causing wars, deaths, hates. But if you use a car to run over a person, doesn't mean the car is bad, it means that you are not using right. I think that we as a humanity, would reach another evolution level, not when religion is erased, but when we learn to live with the difference respecting and tolerating each other.

The difference between religion and a car is that a car makes it so that you can do something you couldn't do without the car. Religion provides nothing that couldn't be done without it. Religion causes a great deal of harm, and every bit of good done in it's name could be done without it. I tolerate religion right up to the point it causes harm. I will not tolerate harm, or hate, in the name of any religion or belief system.

About the exorcism, as i said before i don't know if it works. But i am not arrogant enough to dismiss a phenomenum just because i don't understand it.

Dismissing exorcism has nothing to do with not understanding it. The theory is very basic and easily understood, but there is no evidence to uphold the theory, so it is as easy to dismiss as to understand. Why we are ill is much more complex. It is very arrogant to suggest something as simple and false as exorcism as a solution to such a complex problem.

 

[adreno]

To sum up, the movie was decent (von Sydow was excellent), but ultimately I found "The Omen" more entertaining. This concludes my review.

 

[xrunner]

@JAM
I just read your personal story and feel very sorry for you, for the hurt you experienced from such a young age.
For once I agree with you that kind of religious "education" and attitude is wrong, cruel and abusive.

From what you wrote it seems to me your experience was more like that of belonging to a "cult". It certainly isn't Christianity on any level. Just because people are baptised, pray to God and carry Bibles, it doesn't make them Christians. It's written. Perhaps, under the same conditions, I would have adopted a similar hostile attitude towards any form of religion.

Myself, although I was baptised, I didn't have much religious education and my family was not really involved at that level in any church, so I wouldn't be able to really understand what it would mean to be treated like that.
Then later in life I was away from the church and in any case Christianity didn't appeal to me. However, my religious experience of the last few years, similarly to that of @andre79, has been really good for both me and my family.

Best wishes.

 

[xrunner]

I'd like to add some thoughts in answering some of your points.

I had preachers lay their hands on me and speak in tongues, and when it didn't cure me they blamed me.

This is not exorcism nor deliverance prayer; it seems more like people trying to "help" without exercising any discernment. If they're really Christians they ought to know that only God cures or delivers from evil spirits, not you, not me not any person. We, priests, ministers, etc can only pray.

1. It doesn't work, there is no evidence that it works, common sense dictates that it is a load of crap on level with talking snakes and zombies.

There is plenty of evidence that exorcisms do work. All main cases are fully documented, with including medical notes to ensure the person doesn't suffer from any known medical condition.
I have seen it and witnessed with my own eyes. Anyone who is really interested in finding out can do so by going and seeing themselves where proper deliverance ministry is ministered.

2. When it doesn't work the blame is on the victim, not the perpetrator. You used the wrong priest, didn't pray hard enough, have original sin, blah, blah, blah.

This is totally against scripture. If any minister or priest would blame the victim it would be against all is written in the Bible (various references) and teachings of the Church.
In this respect, the Catholic Church teaches that the victim's faith is irrelevant, what matters instead is the faith of the whole Church in its adherence to the teachings of Christ.
In fact exorcisms are sometimes ministered even to people of other religions who do not share the same faith.

3. It is psychological torture to think the reason you are doubled over in pain, with tears running down your face, shaking, with hot and cold flashes, is because you gave your little sister a dirty look earlier that day, or your room must not be clean enough, or you lied to your mom when she asked if you ate cake for breakfast.

This kind of thinking and spirit would not be from God. God only inspire love and peace in people, anything else i.e. accusing, threatening, inducing guilt or fear etc. always come from the devil.

4. In the eyes of the church demons are an excuse for anything, murder, infidelity, hating gay people

Certainly not the Christian Churches I know. This is misinformation, not sure where you got this from.

The theory is very basic and easily understood, but there is no evidence to uphold the theory, so it is as easy to dismiss as to understand.

Not sure anybody really understands certain phenomena or can give a scientific explanation of such as

"Things listed in theRoman Ritual as being indicators of possible demonic possession include: speaking foreign or ancient languages of which the possessed has no prior knowledge; supernatural abilities and strength; knowledge of hidden or remote things which the possessed has no way of knowing; an aversion to anything holy; and profuse blasphemy and/or sacrilege."

other than theologically in light of what explained in Scripture.

 

[brenda]

@xrunner

It says in:

Luke 11.24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 25"And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. 26"Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

The verse is saying that unless a man has the Holy Spirit take up residence after the casting out of the evil spirit, then his end is much worse and I cannot understand why you say the Catholic Church administers the rite of exorcism to all whoever or whatever they worship.

@JAM

I too am very sorry to hear about your childhood traumas and agree with xrunner that it was nothing to do with true Christianity which unfortunately is often a mask people use to gain power over others. The church does not excuse people for their sins by saying it was demons to blame. If a man has demons he has invited them in by his own behaviour but often needs some help once he has repented of that behaviour before the demons will leave.

Also it is not just a case of a person being physically sick that they will present for the exorcism. The physical sickness is a side effect of the extreme psychological torment they are going through which is the hallmark of demonic possession.

 

[JAM]

From what you wrote it seems to me your experience was more like that of belonging to a "cult". It certainly isn't Christianity on any level. Just because people are baptised, pray to God and carry Bibles, it doesn't make them Christians. It's written. Perhaps, under the same conditions, I would have adopted a similar hostile attitude towards any form of religion.

It was the Southern Baptist Church and Assembly of God, both very main stream and populous Christian churches. They were preaching straight from their doctrine.

I pray that God may touch you with his love and heal you completely from any sickness, and may God bless you with all spiritual and material blessings you need. I ask this in Jesus' name.
Best wishes.

Please don't. That is almost quoting verbatim what I have been told all my life. Olive leaf extract seems to be healing me. A fellow atheist recommended it, the studies have been done by scientists who have dedicated their lives to searching for cures and remedies for our ailments. I appreciate kind thoughts, but when they are given in this way they feel very disrespectful. You know that language was used as a form of abuse to me.

If they're really Christians they ought to know that only God cures or delivers from evil spirits, not you, not me not any person. We, priests, ministers, etc can only pray.

What utter crap. I already called this out. "It was just the wrong, priest, preacher, prayer, religion...." is a form of victim blaming.

There is plenty of evidence that exorcisms do work. All main cases are fully documented, with including medical notes to ensure the person doesn't suffer from any known medical condition.
I have seen it and witnessed with my own eyes. Anyone who is really interested in finding out can do so by going and seeing themselves where proper deliverance ministry is ministered.

I'm a researcher, and I've researched these cases. They are bunk of the highest order.

This is totally against scripture. If any minister or priest would blame the victim it would be against all is written in the Bible (various references) and teachings of the Church.

Funny how you did this in your first comment.

This kind of thinking and spirit would not be from God. God only inspire love and peace in people, anything else i.e. accusing, threatening, inducing guilt or fear etc. always come from the devil.

Please tell that to the victims of 9/11, the Crusades, children molested by priests, I could go on, and on, and on about the evils done in god's name. He killed infants because he was mad at their leader. INFANTS. He killed everything on the planet except one family and two of every animal. All on one boat. I'm still waiting for someone to build a boat that just holds all the known mammals, but I digress, this is about how mean god is.

Certainly not the Christian Churches I know. This is misinformation, not sure where you got this from.

History, original documents, police reports, it is all common knowledge. Please, do a little more research. Take off your blinders. The book you get your morals from tells you not to eat shell fish, how to own slaves, and that demons are to be cast into swine. Yes, I have read the book, 12 times, cover to cover.

What I believe, please see I, II, and III, here is the link to The Humanist Manifesto I: http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

Luke 11.24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 25"And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. 26"Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

Yes but have you recently pleased the lord with sacrifice? Leviticus:
(1:3, 10) "Offer a male without blemish."

(1:5) "Kill the bullock before the LORD ... bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar."

(1:6) "Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces."

(1:8-9) "Lay ... the head, and the fat ... on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs ... burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice ... a sweet savour unto the LORD."

I know, I know, this is the OLD testament, which is relevant when you are talking about gay people, but the rest is OLD law, so some NEW testament crazy talk, I will just give one, but one that you probably quote to people often:

John 3:16 "God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son." to be killed needlessly. Some father. Loving? He impregnated a virgin who gave birth to himself so that he could kill himself to appease himself of the anger caused by the things he created and has complete control over. Wouldn't it have been easier to just give us a manual of how to live and then create us so that we could live that way? Those poor people born on islands who didn't know eating shellfish =burning for eternity unless you happen to hear about that guy who lived 2000 years ago who died to save you. Sigh.

This has been fun, I enjoy a good religious rant now and again. I'm going to get back to writing my thesis about living with chronic illness, and the social, political, medical, and educational barriers that come along with it. For some reason I think it will be more impactful than the fun rant about the 2000+ year old book with contradictions and crazy talk.