Demonology self help: Adam Blai

[Esther12]

Saw an exorcism documentary on TV. This guy Adam Bali seems Legit. Here is some help from his self help page for those compelled to read it.

AAArgh! I'm being compelled by some force not of this realm.

 

[Esther12]

AAArgh! I'm being compelled by some force not of this realm.

Phew... the self-help exorcism saved the day. I need read no more.

Be careful people, even just reading threads like these can unsettle those things best left to their own dark purposes.

 

[JAM]

You may not know that all who end up considering exorcisms have been going through horrible life experiences,
suffer incredibly, they and their families including children, whilst have had no answers or relief from either doctors or psychiatrists or any medical treatment. It's not uncommon for some to be referred by psychiatrist who couldn't help them in the first place.
On the other hand exorcists before doing anything, they usually make sure the problem is not a medical one and will ask for doctors to certify this.


You mean you don't?

So like I said, "I don't know why this is happening, so it MUST be supernatural!" Sigh.

 

[PeterPositive]

So like I said, "I don't know why this is happening, so it MUST be supernatural!" Sigh.

It is a lot more complicated than that. The believer vs non-believer dualism doesn't help if you really want to get to the bottom of it.

I rarely start conversations with people on this subject because either they have investigated the problem or they just speak from hearsay. Typically the latter gets the conversation nowhere.

In any case I would agree with some of the replies in this thread, there are far more common explanations for physical illnesses and not knowing the precise cause doesn't necessarily involve "spiritual influences", for lack of a better definition. Those rare instances are accompanied by unmistakable signs.

Also I don't think "supernatural" is a very useful label. Is gravity supernatural? Only because we don't have a precise theory for how it works? Or spacetime? Or consciousness?

 

[brenda]

Ok thanks. Trying to figure out how to do that. Would that be the "seven sacraments"?

???

 

[WillowJ]

Ok thanks. Trying to figure out how to do that. Would that be the "seven sacraments"?

Going OT here, if you've decided to join the Roman Catholic church, that's where you would start. If not sure yet, take some time to think about matters of religion separate from the OP topic, is my advice.

 

[adreno]

Science is about questioning things. Religion is about not questioning things. I know which I prefer.

 

[PeterPositive]

Science is about questioning things. Religion is about not questioning things. I know which I prefer.

Yes, undoubtedly.

But science has not much to offer about some of these topics. The nature of consciousness, the purpose and nature of the universe... we can amass tons of data, but science itself won't interpret it for us. We do. And we do it with our own (philosophical) filters.

The problem of spiritual possession alludes to elements that contradict western mainstream philosophy, aka scientific materialism, which posits that consciousness is somehow produced by inert matter, even though there's no definition of matter and no explanatory model of how this "miracle" happens.

Basically we're replacing the "god of the gaps" with another promissory filler for those same gaps. Also the vast majority of the academia ignores (sometimes willfully) any of the sound scientific evidence that suggests consciousness operates non locally (see any of the studies by Sheldrake, Radin, Utts, Schwartz, Tart, Targ/Puthoff, Beischel, Braude Greyson, Van Lommel etc...)

Scientific materialism has brought lots of useful technology and advancements but sadly it is now established as the new church of the late 20th century.

 

[adreno]

Consciousness is material, just like everything else. That's why anesthesia works. That's why drugs work. And that is why people with damage to the physical brain have altered consciousness.

Just because we can't presently completely understand a phenomenon doesn't mean we have to resort to spiritualism or mysticism.

 

[PeterPositive]

Consciousness is material, just like everything else. That's why anesthesia works. That's why drugs work. And that is why people with damage to the physical brain have altered consciousness.

Just because we can't presently completely understand a phenomenon doesn't mean we have to resort to spiritualism or mysticism.

Unfortunately is not that simple.
The model of the brain as a filter (or a "reducing valve") for consciousness would equally work in your scenario. Drugs alter the functioning of the receiver and a broken piece of the receiver will necessarily cause damaged functioning of the whole apparatus.

We know close to zilch about consciousness, inferring that is material sounds like a big leap of faith.

And by the way, what is matter?

 

[JAM]

It is a lot more complicated than that. The believer vs non-believer dualism doesn't help if you really want to get to the bottom of it.

I rarely start conversations with people on this subject because either they have investigated the problem or they just speak from hearsay. Typically the latter gets the conversation nowhere.

In any case I would agree with some of the replies in this thread, there are far more common explanations for physical illnesses and not knowing the precise cause doesn't necessarily involve "spiritual influences", for lack of a better definition. Those rare instances are accompanied by unmistakable signs.

Also I don't think "supernatural" is a very useful label. Is gravity supernatural? Only because we don't have a precise theory for how it works? Or spacetime? Or consciousness?

I've read every major, and some arcane, religious books from cover to cover, some a dozen times. I have "investigated" the problem. For my entire childhood I was told I must have done something to be so sick. Did I listen to my mommy? etc. If not I must be faking it. I prayed for days, begged, had nightmares about going to hell because I gave my sister a dirty look that day. Telling anyone their pain is coming from a supernatural being is evil. Period.
No, gravity is not super natural. That is a very ignorant thing to say. We know how gravity works. Science does this great thing, they don't guess and choose to believe that thing until something is proven. They just say "we don't know" until the preponderance of evidence points to the how. Religion and "spirituality" need to figure that out. None of us believed ourselves sick, there is no "Secret" or "Law of Attraction" or demons causing our illness. Just like demons didn't cause any plagues. Entertaining these ideas after the enlightenment is ridiculous. So ridicule I will, especially since this particular bit of ridiculousness causes tremendous harm.

 

[adreno]

The model of the brain as a filter (or a "reducing valve") for consciousness would equally work in your scenario. Drugs alter the functioning of the receiver and a broken piece of the receiver will necessarily cause damaged functioning of the whole apparatus.

There is a whole field called neuroscience that would disagree that your brain is a radio.

 

[JAM]

There is a whole field called neuroscience that would disagree that your brain is a radio.

Silly, adreno. They don't "believe" in science.

 

[PeterPositive]

There is a whole field called neuroscience that would disagree that your brain is a radio.

Yes because it adheres to a specific philosophy, scientific materialism, which posits it before answering the question.

I am not arguing in favor or against consciousness being a "radio" (or better "reducing valve"). I am just looking at a field of inquiry (neuroscience) who's foundation are based on a premature answer to the very question they are asking. And I haven't got much faith in such an approach, at least for the investigation of the deep mystery that is the nature of consciousness. From a medical standpoint I am sure it will bring exciting successes.

The two things however are very different. It's not very scientific to assume indisputable conclusions before the investigation is completed.

At the moment we don't have a clue to even solve the "easy problem" of consciousness, and even less how does matter (whatever that is) produces subjective experience and awareness of being aware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

 

[PeterPositive]

Silly, adreno. They don't "believe" in science.

I don't personally believe in the philosophy of scientific materialism. It's a limited view on reality and it's a contradiction in terms, since matter is ultimately elusive.

 

[PeterPositive]

I've read every major, and some arcane, religious books from cover to cover, some a dozen times. I have "investigated" the problem. For my entire childhood I was told I must have done something to be so sick. Did I listen to my mommy? etc. If not I must be faking it. I prayed for days, begged, had nightmares about going to hell because I gave my sister a dirty look that day. Telling anyone their pain is coming from a supernatural being is evil. Period.

You're building a straw man, I haven't said that in any my posts. It wouldn't simply make any sense.

No, gravity is not super natural. That is a very ignorant thing to say. We know how gravity works.

No we don't.
The standard model (of physics) does not explain gravity, as it doesn't explain the alleged dark matter and energy, the asymetry of matter and anti-matter and a couple more.

So are those supernatural? There must be some kind of double standard by which strong scientific evidence for telepathy in animals and humans is still labeled as "supernatural" while postulated "vibrating strings of energy", "branes" and "multiverses" are sound scientific hypothesis.

None of us believed ourselves sick, there is no "Secret" or "Law of Attraction" or demons causing our illness.

You're preaching to choir, mate I am haven't said that. Again let's not turn this into a cartoonish caricature.

What I've said is that there are well documented cases of demonic possession that can't be easily explained away. Using scorn, derision and condescension won't make them go away either.

My only point is we know much less than we think we know, especially about consciousness. Only using an open and critical mind we can tackle these topics. Today's science is a powerful tool of inquiry when it's not restricted in small philosophical corners.

If one approaches the subject with any kind of prejudice, be it based on dogmatic religion, or dogmatic scientism, it's unlikely we'll ever get closer to the truth.

cheers

 

[JAM]

You're building a straw man, I haven't said that in any my posts. It wouldn't simply make any sense.


No we don't.
The standard model (of physics) does not explain gravity, as it doesn't explain the alleged dark matter and energy, the asymetry of matter and anti-matter and a couple more.

So are those supernatural? There must be some kind of double standard by which strong scientific evidence for telepathy in animals and humans is still labeled as "supernatural" while postulated "vibrating strings of energy", "branes" and "multiverses" are sound scientific hypothesis.


You're preaching to choir, mate I am haven't said that. Again let's not turn this into a cartoonish caricature.

What I've said is that there are well documented cases of demonic possession that can't be easily explained away. Using scorn, derision and condescension won't make them go away either.

My only point is we know much less than we think we know, especially about consciousness. Only using an open and critical mind we can tackle these topics. Today's science is a powerful tool of inquiry when it's not restricted in small philosophical corners.

If one approaches the subject with any kind of prejudice, be it based on dogmatic religion, or dogmatic scientism, it's unlikely we'll ever get closer to the truth.

cheers

You obviously don't understand what a straw man argument is, beyond that continuing this conversation is pointless.

 

[PeterPositive]

You obviously don't understand what a straw man argument is, beyond that continuing this conversation is pointless.

Lets leave it at that, but let me also clarify that in no instance in my own posts I am saying that

Telling anyone their pain is coming from a supernatural being is evil. Period.

You were probably referring to someone else who might have alluded to that. I don't endorse the idea, it's plain silly.

Sine you have misrepresented my original post and then argued against it, that's technically a straw man.
Maybe your reply was directed at someone else, no big deal.

Cheers

 

[xrunner]

@Jarod and @Countrygirl
thanks for the links I could relate to much of what they said, in the process I got answers to a couple of questions I had. Also interesting Prince's experience with the demonic as a potential cause for illness.

 

[xrunner]

If one is submitted to the will of God, one does not have trouble with demons, so it seems to me that having them cast out, is just an easier way, to avoid the submission bit and anyway scripture warns us that if a house is swept clean (exorcism) then the devil that leaves brings another seven along with him when he returns.

From a Christian perspective that seems taken out of context. It refers to a possible outcome following deliverance if there isn't a parallel conversion, in other words deliverance is unhelpful if the doors through which evil spirits came in in the first place aren't subsequently closed. Prince's video mentions a number of such examples.
But it can be even more complicated in practice. Sometimes evil spirits harass a person without the person knowing or suspecting a thing but after that person turns to God, God's grace can take them out of hiding and then manifestations start.