Demonology self help: Adam Blai

[JAM]

This is my final post, since I find I have to repeat this over and over.

The fun rants get old fast don't they? I find that the first few posts are fun, then the ignorance starts to burn...

 

[adreno]

The fun rants get old fast don't they? I find that the first few posts are fun, then the ignorance starts to burn...

It's hopeless. Religious people are impervious to reasoning. Here's an article that illustrates your viewpoint:

Most Americans 18-29 Years Old Believe in Demon Possession, Shows Survey

During the late 1960s and early 1970s, many fundamentalists and conservative charismatic evangelicals came to the conclusion that the tumult of the 1960s and all that came with it -- the Civil Rights Movement, opposition to the Vietnam War, the women's liberation movement, the incipient gay rights movement, the hippie counterculture and rock music, the rise in crime that began almost exactly when the Beatles set foot on America's shores in 1964, civil unrest and riots in America's cities, and all the other challenges to orthodoxy -- stemmed from a underlying metaphysical cause:

Satan.

Underneath of the tumult was, literally, a spiritual invasion. During the 1960s, a wave of invading demons had gained a beachhead on America's shores like the Allied troops storming France's Normandy beaches in 1944, and by the 1970s they were taking possession of individuals in massive numbers and even seizing whole geographic areas.

The notion that demonic forces, and people associated with them, are behind both personal tragedies and collective societal misfortune is not one that humanity, or at least America, has left behind.

But don't take that from me.

Any given day of the week, one can find televangelists proclaiming that this school massacre wasn't due to mental illness and easy access to assault weapons and high capacity magazines; and that destructive hurricane wasn't potentiated by global warming. No, such misfortunes stem from God's wrath at gay marriage and a lack of prayer in public schools.

Aren't those fringe beliefs ? Not really. Not any more.

The outgoing Chair of the House Science Committee thinks global warming is a massive hoax perpetrated by scientists, to get funding, and claims humans can't influence the weather, stating in 2011, "I don't think we can control what God controls."

A current Science Committee member thinks humans and dinosaurs cohabited the Earth and declares the Big Bang, evolution, and the science of embryology to be "lies straight from the pit of hell."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/most-americans-1829-years_b_4163588.html

 

[Valentijn]

I pray that God may touch you with his love and heal you completely from any sickness, and may God bless you with all spiritual and material blessings you need. I ask this in Jesus' name.

When you know someone doesn't believe in God, and/or that they find the concept of giving credit for illness and cures to demons and gods to be offensive, this sort of statement which you have made is aggressive and inappropriate.

It's one thing to genuinely wish someone well, but there is a different intent when you deliberately and blatantly disrespect their beliefs in the process. I'm not an expert on Christianity, but I doubt that sort of passive-aggressive "prayer" is in keeping with its core principles.

 

[xrunner]

I just want to pick on the point of "blaming" the victim when an exorcism fail. From a Christian perspective it doesn't make any sense.
Obviously I can't talk for every Christian denomination under the sky, only about my experience with the Catholic Church and that never happens. It's unknown, it's foreign to the Church. Some people receive exorcisms for years and the priests never give up until they're free. This is fact.

As for the scriptural basis of this, consider the cases when Jesus sent out the twelve and later the seventy two disciples on a mission to heal and deliver people from demons.
The disciples succeeded NOT because of the faith of the people they cured but ONLY because of the power they received.

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,2and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
6So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere. (Lk ch9)

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-twoa others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Lk ch10)

The "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name" is quite revealing of their incredulity, so much for their faith!
Let alone the faith of the people that were cured and probably didn't even know who Jesus was. There are in fact cases in the gospels of people healed directly by Jesus where people didn't even know who he was. Only Jesus' power can heal and free people from evil spirits.

And consider the case of that demon-possessed boy, where the Jesus disciples couldn't free the boy. Note that this happened after the twelve had returned from their first successful mission.
Did Jesus blame the lack of faith of the boy? Not really, he blamed the Church i.e. his disciples and in private he basically told them they didn't pray hard or long enough.

37The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him. 38A man in the crowd called out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39A spirit seizes him and he suddenly screams; it throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him. 40I begged your disciples to drive it out, but they could not.”
41“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here.”
42Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the impure spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father. 43And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.
(Lk ch 9)

 

[xrunner]

It's one thing to genuinely wish someone well

That's all I care about.

I'm not an expert on Christianity, but I doubt that sort of passive-aggressive "prayer" is in keeping with its core principles.

There are people like cloistered nuns that spend a lot of their time just praying for all people of every race, religion, creed etc.

If moderators think that my wishing well to somebody through a Christian prayer is inappropriate I'm happy for it to be removed. I'm also quite happy for @JAM to ask moderators to remove it.
In any case my well-wishing for Jam's health remains.

 

[JAM]

It's unknown, it's foreign to the Church. Some people receive exorcisms for years and the priests never give up until they're free. This is fact.

You are delusional. The fact that it has to go on for years is proof that it doesn't work. If anything spontaneous remission may happen to coincide with one of the rituals, but that is far from proof of anything. You are arguing against yourself without the awareness to realize it. Kinda funny.

As for the scriptural basis of this, consider the cases when Jesus sent out the twelve and later the seventy two disciples on a mission to heal and deliver people from demons.

I will not consider any "case" based on a book that is most likely complete fiction. There is no real evidence that Jesus existed as one person, but is probably a bunch of stories combined for effect. Honestly, reading about all the exorcisms in the Bible just makes me sad for the swine.

 

[JAM]

There are people like cloistered nuns that spend a lot of their time just praying for all people of every race, religion, creed etc.

What an incredible waste of resources.

That's all I care about.

It shouldn't be about what you care about. When the person on the receiving end says your actions are causing harm, you should care.

 

[xrunner]

It shouldn't be about what you care about. When the person on the receiving end says your actions are causing harm, you should care.

I think you're on purpose giving my words a meaning they don't have. Read post n.105
But I'm not bothered.

 

[xrunner]

Honestly, reading about all the exorcisms in the Bible just makes me sad for the swine.

Since you've come into this thread you've been throwing disrespectful words left and right to people who have a different view and beliefs from yours. That is in almost every single post of yours.
If I have to use Valentijn words I would say "there is a different intent when you deliberately and blatantly disrespect their beliefs in the process" and that's for the so much claimed tolerance by the enlightened children of the enlightenment.

The only obvious thing that shows from every single one of your posts is that your knowledge of this topic is... a bunch of slogans.
Still, I'm not bothered and will keep wishing you well.

 

[brenda]

@JAM

Yes but have you recently pleased the lord with sacrifice? Leviticus:
(1:3, 10) "Offer a male without blemish."

I am not a Biblical literalist like the denominations that you mentioned. But those instructions were symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ which no longer are required.

John 3:16 "God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son." to be killed needlessly. Some father. Loving? He impregnated a virgin who gave birth to himself so that he could kill himself to appease himself of the anger caused by the things he created and has complete control over. Wouldn't it have been easier to just give us a manual of how to live and then create us so that we could live that way? Those poor people born on islands who didn't know eating shellfish =burning for eternity unless you happen to hear about that guy who lived 2000 years ago who died to save you. Sigh.

You are talking about a number of doctrines that I do not accept. especially Penal Substitution. The Bible says that Jesus gave his life willingly not that his father killed him. All men are given the desire to seek God and do not have to live in an evangelised place in the world. All men are given a conscience which is the manual you speak of which will lead them to God if they do not turn away and the reason a lot turn away is through abuse by those who bear the name of Christians but are not living it. Organised religion is about power.

 

[xrunner]

Religious people are impervious to reasoning.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

 

[xrunner]

The verse is saying that unless a man has the Holy Spirit take up residence after the casting out of the evil spirit, then his end is much worse and I cannot understand why you say the Catholic Church administers the rite of exorcism to all whoever or whatever they worship.

@brenda, yes you're right on that. And I don't know the answer to that. If I have to guess, I'd say that Jesus never refused to heal anybody. So as St Paul said love comes first. The other thing that comes to mind is that, in the case of Christians, it's Jesus that delivers demonised people so the priests tend to follow what Jesus wants, i.e. if they get free is because Jesus wanted them to be freed, regardless of their faith. The late Fr Rufus Pereira who worked in the Indian subcontinent helped thousands and they weren't all Christians.

 

[JAM]

I think you're on purpose giving my words a meaning they don't have. Read post n.105
But I'm not bothered.

You should be bothered. I told you that your words were hurtful and you have brushed it off, others have told you that your words were hurtful and you brushed it off. That is hurtful.

Since you've come into this thread you've been throwing disrespectful words left and right to people who have a different view and beliefs from yours. That is in almost every single post of yours.
If I have to use Valentijn words I would say "there is a different intent when you deliberately and blatantly disrespect their beliefs in the process" and that's for the so much claimed tolerance by the enlightened children of the enlightenment.

The only obvious thing that shows from every single one of your posts is that your knowledge of this topic is... a bunch of slogans.
Still, I'm not bothered and will keep wishing you well.

I have disrespected the religion, not the people. Ridiculous things deserve ridicule. My knowledge of the topic is expansive. I think it just bothers you that others have examined your beliefs and found so many holes and contradictions.

I am not a Biblical literalist like the denominations that you mentioned. But those instructions were symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ which no longer are required.

And why exactly are they no longer required? Did the omnipotent god change his mind, or did society stop believing that particular crazy thing so the church had to change their stance?

You are talking about a number of doctrines that I do not accept. especially Penal Substitution. The Bible says that Jesus gave his life willingly not that his father killed him. All men are given the desire to seek God and do not have to live in an evangelised place in the world. All men are given a conscience which is the manual you speak of which will lead them to God if they do not turn away and the reason a lot turn away is through abuse by those who bear the name of Christians but are not living it. Organised religion is about power.

So you are a Biblical cherry picker. God made Jesus to kill him, it was his plan. Maybe you need to read the book again. If conscience is the manual it sucks, talk about relative. No, the reason most of us "turn away" is reason and our conscience. All religion is about power.

 

[brenda]

Yes I understand that healing is available to all but that is not deliverance necessarily. When something goes against the clear teaching of scripture then I will not entertain it.

 

[adreno]

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

It's one thing to quote someone, another to understand what you're quoting. Einstein did not believe in God. But he believed that science should be paired with values, morals, and meaning.

This quote is often used to show both Einstein’s religiosity and his belief in the compatibility—indeed, the mutual interdependence—of science and religion. But the quote is rarely used in context, and when you see the context you’ll find that the quote should give no solace to the faithful. But first let me show you how, in that same essay, Einstein proposes what is essentially Stephen Jay Gould’s version of NOMA (Non-overlapping Magisteria). Gould’s idea (which was clearly not original) was that science and religion were harmonious because they had distinct but complementary tasks: science helps us understand the physical structure of the universe, while religion deals with human values, morals, and meanings.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...religion-and-science-was-wrong-misinterpreted

 

[JAM]

Yes I understand that healing is available to all but that is not deliverance necessarily. When something goes against the clear teaching of scripture then I will not entertain it.

What are you wearing? Is it a "pure" fabric or one of mixed fibers? If the later then you are going against the clear teaching of scripture. See how ridiculous that is?

 

[Valentijn]

If I have to use Valentijn words I would say "there is a different intent when you deliberately and blatantly disrespect their beliefs in the process" and that's for the so much claimed tolerance by the enlightened children of the enlightenment.

Being disrespectful of ideas in a debate is one thing. Being deliberately offensive under the guise of praying for someone is an entirely different matter, and quite disgusting.

 

[brenda]

And why exactly are they no longer required? Did the omnipotent god change his mind, or did society stop believing that particular crazy thing so the church had to change their stance?

They are no longer required because the symbol has been fulfilled.I don't know why God times things the way he did.

So you are a Biblical cherry picker. God made Jesus to kill him, it was his plan. Maybe you need to read the book again. If conscience is the manual it sucks, talk about relative. No, the reason most of us "turn away" is reason and our conscience. All religion is about power.

No I understand the different genres, like poetry and symbolism. It was God's plan yes that he would become incarnate and then die at the hands of men and no-one understands the full reason for it but that it was necessary in order for man to become one with him. I was raised by atheists so come from a different perspective to you. One day I had an encounter with God which changed my life. It overruled my reasoning. I agree that religion is about power. Meeting God is not religion.

 

[Valentijn]

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

And as a scientist I'm sure he was aware of his statement being very far from proven fact. It was his opinion, and many disagree with him on a completely rational basis. In fact, giving a statement undo credit due to the author is the logical fallacy of "argument from authority".

It was Einstein's opinion, and my opinion is that he was wrong.

 

[brenda]

What are you wearing? Is it a "pure" fabric or one of mixed fibers? If the later then you are going against the clear teaching of scripture. See how ridiculous that is?

They were instructions given at a certain and place for a nation who were to be an example and symbol of what would be done by God for his creation.