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Complete Symptom Relief and CFS Remission Since Starting Nitric Oxide Supplement

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
hi,
so, i have narrowed down to the "magic" amino acids belong to l-glutamine and AAKG in my case, but they need to be taken together, around 10g Glutamine + 3 or 4g AKG, 3 times a day.

I also recently added in biotin, which may or not help the situation. So, only these 3 items I take now.

But these 3 seem to work unreal wonders for me, I can feel myself "turning" about 1 hour after ingestion, an energy surge,...a power boot up,,,not sure whether effect is on krebs cycle and/or NO synthesis. AAKG had large effect on both citric acid cycle and NO synthesis.

Coincidentally, i stumbled on this this site, a guy that uses an Glutamine/Ornithine/AKG mix for complete relief.
Been exchanging a few emails, and hes been doing all sorts of iron man stuff.
http://cfsandme.co.uk/effect.html

KEEP THE FAITH People!

I took a look at the site you mentioned http://cfsandme.co.uk/effect.html. I already have a tub of glutamine (will increase my dose) and now I'm going to add ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (the salt, otherwise known as OKG) when it arrives. I didn't order from the site above because postage to the US would be huge and these amino acids are readily available in the US at cheap prices.

I was wondering if you'd be willing to post some of the content from the emails you exchanged with this fellow - you can leave out anything that's personal. I have some questions for him, but I don't want to bother him with the same questions if you already have more information. Thanks.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
I took a look at the site you mentioned http://cfsandme.co.uk/effect.html. I already have a tub of glutamine (will increase my dose) and now I'm going to add ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (the salt, otherwise known as OKG) when it arrives. I didn't order from the site above because postage to the US would be huge and these amino acids are readily available in the US at cheap prices.

I was wondering if you'd be willing to post some of the content from the emails you exchanged with this fellow - you can leave out anything that's personal. I have some questions for him, but I don't want to bother him with the same questions if you already have more information. Thanks.

PM me what you wish to know.
If I have the answer ill reply.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
Great article, pretty much the mechanics of CFS "fatigue" explained perfectly. http://phoenixrising.me/archives/25528
The instigator of the NO dysfunction is still a mystery, autoimmunity still the front runner in many of the leading minds.
I am also of the belief hormones are still part of the overall picture...sex hormones have implications in other autoimmune disorders, SLE, etc. Ratio of male/female similar to CFS also. Periods of remission reported during pregnancy etc,
dr coimbra protocol of 100,000 ui Vit D units a day supposed to have high success rate in autoimmune disorders.
Surprised it doesnt have more "activity" on Phoenixrising.

http://www.vitamindandms.org/researchers/coimbra/
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...min-d-protocol-for-autoimmune-diseases.34777/
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/coimbra-high-dose-vitamin-d-protocol-f57/topic27151.html

what happens to hormone levels in pregnancy? oestrogen and testosterone drop or rise?
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Greg, are you getting relief again after the relapse after using n02 black?

hi.
my cfs improved dramatically this year.
i am not lactic anymore so no benefit really from it.
i just take protein shakes now and ldn.
also l glutamine extra if i feel myself dipping.
no2 black was.phenomonal for first few months but it skewed something else.
would.recommend only for a few.months at a time.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
hi guys.
I want to give some update on the NO treatment.
I had to stop No2 black recently because I think large doses of arginine over 8 months had done something to my cortisol levels, my body started to get used to arginine also, so I was taking over 15g daily.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17510493

I dont have lactate legs anymore but stamina has been gradually decreasing...at 5pm now im mangled.
Strangely from 8am to 5pm I feel pretty good, I can do normal things, play golf, run around town,,,etc.
But whether i do nought or sweat it on the golf course, come hell or highwater at 5pm i'm roasted.
I believe my cortisol is too low upon wakening and is spent by 5pm, instead of 11pm in normal subjects.

I had a most excellent 7 months so not complaining, but typical in CFS, what you gain on one hand you lose in the other.

Keep the faith guys!
We are another day closer the cure!
Bye.

What if one monitors and increases cortisol levels whilst on this supplement? Would that not be the answer?
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
What if one monitors and increases cortisol levels whilst on this supplement? Would that not be the answer?

Nought to do with cortisol. Adrenals get appointed blame for adrenal fatigue etc.....but people have adrenals removed and not even half the symptoms of us bizarre creatures. Arginine stimulates a metabolic pathway that is broken in cfs/me. Hazard a guess at mTORC but hopefully this year we will finally discover.
 

raghav

Senior Member
Messages
809
Location
India
Hi Everybody ! This is my first post on this forum. I am from India. I have been suffering from CFS for the past 17 years. I have brain fog, extreme fatigue even if I walk for 15 to 20 minutes. I have GI symptoms. Lots of gas and cramping. I tried taking L-Glutamine. But even 500 mg increases my heart rate from 80 to 100. Then I have to lie down for a couple of hours till my system sets itself right. If I try tyrosine also I have the same result. I am taking Antidepressents for increasing my neurotransmitter levels. But my Psychiatrist feels my body is not producing sufficient neurotransmitters. Especially dopamine. I am not able to tolerate MethylPhenidate. I am taking Waklert (Armodafinil) for the past 5 years. It is not having the same effect as I had when I started on it. Can somebody tell me why my heart rate goes up on L-Glutamine and how to overcome this issue.
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
@raghav Welcome to the forum. You have posted in a thread about Nitric Oxide. You'll get more responses if you start a new thread to discuss your symptoms. This link leads to the general symptoms forum. If you click the link and then look for the 'Post new thread' button in the upper right part of the page then you'll be able to start your own thread.

Increased heart rate is a known side effect of l-glutamine. This information from another forum may explain the cause of the increased heart rate:
"L-glutamine provides you with the building blocks for glutamate. My guess would be excessive glutamate causing excitation. If you're prone to anxiety, the glutamate (your chief excitatory neurotransmitter) causes a flood of brain events which can lead to elevated hr, anxiety, restlessness and insomnia."

So it may be that you just don't need any more glutamate and the l-glutamine is throwing off the balance of glutamate in your brain.
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
Folx,

I've been reading this entire thread with a lot of interest; there are so many conversations going on on this site that present golden opportunities if they cross connected. Please read on, because my post here is in fact about Nitric Oxide.

Ever since my early years (20 yrs ago) with this mystery illness (I get a lot of mental fog and dizziness, but my activity level isn't too bad, and I can handle alcohol, and have a lot of neuropsychiatric problems, and terrible non restorative sleep, pretty much stupid till lunch time, all started with a case of likely viral hepatitis overseas) I felt I breath differently from the day I fell ill. I breath higher in my chest, shorter, faster breaths. Also, my nasal passageways feel rough and irritated, though no mucus or anything (please spare me ideas on which nasal bacteria I should kill).

There are a few threads flying around this site about Buteyko Breathing. This breathing method teaches you to slow your breathing. I'm not sure what portion of people on this site chronically hyperventilate, but there is research indicating humans carry a certain amount of ambient NO in their upper nasal passageways, which is higher when you have good concentrations of CO2 in your blood. Chronic Hyperventilation reduces blood CO2 and likely depletes ambient NO in parasinuses. Once you raise CO2 levels by reducing oxygen intake, you also raise NO levels in your parasinuses.

I've been wondering if reduction in NO in sinuses might be one reason I wake up stupid. Could it be due to vasoconstriction not only from daytime Chronic Hyperventilation, but also depletion of NO in my upper respiratory system? I've been experimenting with Buteyko and raising my CO2 levels. Though no miracle (it helps only sometimes) but on other occasions once I hit the "good CO2 mark" everything starts looking strange and I want to panic, and I have this strong urge to overbreath again.

Is this because of lactic build up in my brain due to chronic vasoconstriction, leading to a compensatory overbreathing response to alkalize? What if this is a vicious circle of brain lactic build up that causes very subtle chronic overbreathing, which leads to cerebral vasoconstriction, upper nasal passageway irritation, NO depletion, and non restorative sleep?

And if in my humble theorizing, I'm even remotely onto something, how can this cycle be broken?
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Is this because of lactic build up in my brain due to chronic vasoconstriction, leading to a compensatory overbreathing response to alkalize? What if this is a vicious circle of brain lactic build up that causes very subtle chronic overbreathing, which leads to cerebral vasoconstriction, upper nasal passageway irritation, NO depletion, and non restorative sleep?

And if in my humble theorizing, I'm even remotely onto something, how can this cycle be broken?
If it leads to d-lactic acidosis (of which even a mild rise can cause cognitive issues), the answer could be taking sodium bicarbonate.
http://fitsweb.uchc.edu/student/selectives/TimurGraham/Lactic_Acidosis.html
 
Messages
516
I think the AAKG stimulates the mtorc path...
Only a guess though.
In theory it should, since arginine is precursor to agmatine which is indirect mTor booster. Now agmatine's come up in popularity in bodybuildland. (I haven't given it a good run, but 1g dose was noticeable at least) This gets really muddy because agmatine is supposed to inhibit [edit: only some forms of] NOS [ http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/agmatine-and-nitric-oxide.39777/ ]

Did you read of any other mechanism?

Edit: I don't think I posted in this very long thread but, despite the whole mTor thing going on, still, NO has been a factor in symptom relief for me... and it does help wound healing, so it can step a little bit past just symptom relief... long story short, I think it still has its place, especially eNOS. [sorry for the edit disaster - time to log off]
 
Last edited:

Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
Just wanted to add my voice to this thread and note the symptom relief I've got from taking an amino acid supplement in large doses.

Unlike @gregh286 I always reacted terribly to alcohol but I've been taking whey for a bit over two months now and it seems to be having a major positive effect on my PEM.

For example, this morning I rode my bike about six km. I haven't done that kind of ride in years. I was careful. I didn't go too hard. I stopped a bunch of times. And I felt quite flat at the end. But here we are about four hours later and I feel fine again, whereas previously this would have been time for the crash to really kick in.

The brand recommended to me by cfs specialist Don Lewis is Dymatize ISO 100. I imagine other brands will work just as well but this is the one that I have tried.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Just wanted to add my voice to this thread and note the symptom relief I've got from taking an amino acid supplement in large doses.

Unlike @gregh286 I always reacted terribly to alcohol but I've been taking whey for a bit over two months now and it seems to be having a major positive effect on my PEM.

For example, this morning I rode my bike about six km. I haven't done that kind of ride in years. I was careful. I didn't go too hard. I stopped a bunch of times. And I felt quite flat at the end. But here we are about four hours later and I feel fine again, whereas previously this would have been time for the crash to really kick in.

The brand recommended to me by cfs specialist Don Lewis is Dymatize ISO 100. I imagine other brands will work just as well but this is the one that I have tried.

Nice one Murp.
It's possible cfs people are low in a certain combination of aminos that inhibit mTORC.
Most significant appear to be glutamine...taurine....lysine and arginine.
Aminos don't contain taurine you might have to add it on top.
 

eljefe19

Senior Member
Messages
483
Nice one Murp.
It's possible cfs people are low in a certain combination of aminos that inhibit mTORC.
Most significant appear to be glutamine...taurine....lysine and arginine.
Aminos don't contain taurine you might have to add it on top.
Greg, buddy, you might find this interesting. So according to selfhacked, arginine, Leucine, and Tryptophan restriction inhibits mTOR. Well on a test I did a couple years ago, all three of these were marked High. Fits with Naviaux's paper. So, is something causing these to not be used effectively by mTOR? My Glutamine level was low, however, and Glutamine is needed for mTOR activation just as much as Leucine.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
976
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Greg, buddy, you might find this interesting. So according to selfhacked, arginine, Leucine, and Tryptophan restriction inhibits mTOR. Well on a test I did a couple years ago, all three of these were marked High. Fits with Naviaux's paper. So, is something causing these to not be used effectively by mTOR? My Glutamine level was low, however, and Glutamine is needed for mTOR activation just as much as Leucine.

Hi Jeff.
Yea the low glutamine I can understand as the body catabolises it to fuel cells so used up pretty rapidly and often.
But the high leucine and arginine does suggest the mtorc pathway that's supposed to use them isn't....
I'm the same on amino panel. High arginine and leucine.....low glutamine also.
So with this pathway shut down partially then these aminos are surplus to requirement.
 

jimmy86

Senior Member
Messages
119
I don't know whether this has already been discussed, but I recently came across this study from 1994 by Brelley and Lord:

http://performancelab.fi/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Amino-Acids_Chronic_Fatigue_1077.pdf

They had amazing results with supplementing amino acids, almost 75% of the (small) treatment group got much better.

They also list in Table 1 the amino acid formula, and in Table 2 the amino acids they found to be reduced in CFS. BCAA and Taurine seems to be very important.