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Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

Sasha

Fine, thank you
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17,863
Location
UK
Do others notice that some symptoms improve but others get worse on a higher dose, and vice versa?

I feel quite fluey today - wouldn't want it to keep up, since presumably that's a ton of inflammation - but BMs (three today, a world first, Bristol perfection :whistle::nervous:) have improved markedly - I'm assuming that's gut motility?

At a lower dose I don't feel fluey but am slightly constipated.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
@Sasha, Do you suspect that you might suffer from anything like Candida albicans, or Helicobacter pylori? Clostridium butyricum is purported to displace such pathogens.

I'm somewhat reluctant to suggest this, as I think it's an overused excuse for negative reactions, but perhaps the flu-like symptoms are part of a die-off reaction to such pathogens.

I was just tested for H. pylori and it came up negative. I've got no particular reason to think I've got a candida overgrowth (but I'm not sure how I'd know).

People taking the various pre/probiotics seem to get the 'inflammation' response (if that's what this is) quite commonly - or am I wrong there?

Like you, I never know how to theorise about feeling worse on something!

I'm assuming the sensible thing is to cut back rather than attempt to tough it out.
 

JPV

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858
People taking the various pre/probiotics seem to get the 'inflammation' response (if that's what this is) quite commonly - or am I wrong there?

Like you, I never know how to theorise about feeling worse on something!

I'm assuming the sensible thing is to cut back rather than attempt to tough it out.
Yeah, it's a bit of a puzzle trying to figure all this stuff out.

If I take too much Miyarisan, I seem to have a worsening of symptoms like brain fog and malaise the next day. Kind of like a hangover. 2 tabs per day seems to work well for now. I'm assuming that I'll be able to increase over time. I think I should also maybe rotate with some other probiotics, deemed potentially helpful by others on the forum, like B. Infantis.

I suppose that any reaction, positive or even negative, can at least serve to provide some clues about an area that probably needs further work. How to go about interpreting it all and sorting it out is the problem.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
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17,863
Location
UK
I think that's what I'm having - 'malaise'. I just feel generally ill. My brain seems OK though.
 

JPV

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858
@Sasha, do you take any form of RS? I've taken a break from it for now, except for what I get from food intake.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
@Sasha, Do you suspect that you might suffer from anything like Candida albicans, or Helicobacter pylori? Clostridium butyricum is purported to displace such pathogens.

I'm somewhat reluctant to suggest this, as I think it's an overused excuse for negative reactions, but perhaps the flu-like symptoms are part of a die-off reaction to such pathogens.
I have a new theory, the oxalate theory :alien:

CB produces vit K2 in the gut, which directs calcium to the bones. We have large calcium oxalate deposits in soft tissues, and the calcium (bound to oxalate) mobilization causes mucosal irritation and joint pain flares. This covers both gastritis and candida-like reactions (EDIT flu-like as well), plus the supposed immune reactions causing all kinds of pain o_O

I am not going to eat low oxalate foods only, but I am watching to not eat too many high oxalate foods at the same time in all my meals like I had been doing :bang-head:

Edit -- potato starch = high oxalates (?) or high K2/folate generation (?)
Edit -- note to self: find out about the K2-folate connection (does Asklipia know?)
 
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JPV

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858
@Gondwanaland, interesting theory.

In the past, when I was on a supplement regimen for suspected glutamate issues, I'd find myself having very cloudy urine a few times a week. I could never quite pin down the cause, but some have suggested this might be from oxalate dumps. The again, it could have probably been from any number of other things.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
@Sasha, do you take any form of RS? I've taken a break from it for now, except for what I get from food intake.

Yes, I still take 2 tbsps/day of RS, plus 3/4 tsp psyllium powder. I don't take it at the same time as the CB though (I don't want to turbocharge it!).
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
having very cloudy urine a few times a week. I could never quite pin down the cause, but some have suggested this might be from oxalate dumps.
That is very interesting, JPV. Me too am used to have cloudy - and acidic - urine at my worst moments, and that is precisely when sodium bicarbonate baths help. Thanks for calling my attention to that!

I added a couple of editions to my post above and will tag @Asklipia here because I want to ask her if she knows something about a vit K2-Folate connection, because both cause me similar pain. So I am wondering how folate causes oxalate dump...
 

Sasha

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Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Has anyone started with less than one of the tiny tablets? I did (woo woo, I know! ;)) energy testing on my newly received supply and, if I believe that is valid, it indicated starting with 1/4 tab.

Sushi

I started on 2 and have had to reduce to 1/4 through trial and error, guided by symptoms.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Did you put it in milk only?
For how long, did you mean 24 hours? At which temperature? This is going to help! Not that I think that Miyarisan is expensive.
Yes, milk only, organic homogenized. 24 hours is what Natasha Campbell-McBride (GAPS) recommends so that all milk components (casein, I guess) are consumed by the bacteria. (and for me, cornstarch component of Miyarisan as well) There has been some suggestion on GAPS forums that anaerobic fermenting is best. I'm pouring it into clip-lock jars, but also into regular screw-lid jars, putting those jars into a freezer bag, and putting a hot water bottle in. Fresh hot water bottle after 8-10 hours. Seems to be working fine this way.
 

JPV

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858
Well, I guess the next probiotic adventure that I'll be taking is with David Whitlock's AO+ Mist. It's purported to be an Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria that's supposed to boost Nitrite and Basal Nitric Oxide. I finally took the plunge and ordered it last weekend, mostly because I found a 25% discount code on Paul Jaminet's site. According to FedEx tracking, it should arrive here sometime today.
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
Well, I guess the next probiotic adventure that I'll be taking is with David Whitlock's AO+ Mist. It's purported to be an Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria that's supposed to boost Nitrite and Basal Nitric Oxide. I finally took the plunge and ordered it last weekend, mostly because I found a 25% discount code on Paul Jaminet's site. According to FedEx tracking, it should arrive here sometime today.
"Bacteria is the new black" just cracked me up :lol:
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,100
@JPV please let us know if the bottles contain anything besides magnesium chloride :wide-eyed:
You could start spraying Mg chloride today and then later with the AO+ to see if there's any difference ;)
 

JPV

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858
@JPV please let us know if the bottles contain anything besides magnesium chloride :wide-eyed:
You could start spraying Mg chloride today and then later with the AO+ to see if there's any difference ;)
Good guess... I actually have some MG Chloride spray. I used it for 2-3 weeks but it didn't really seem to boost my MG level much, at least not that I could tell. I used a lot of it too, like 1/4 of an 8oz. bottle per week.

What makes you think that AO+ Mist is just MG Chloride? The site claims that it contains Nitrosomonas eutropha D23... whatever the hell that's supposed to be. o_O
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Well, I guess the next probiotic adventure that I'll be taking is with David Whitlock's AO+ Mist. It's purported to be an Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria that's supposed to boost Nitrite and Basal Nitric Oxide. I finally took the plunge and ordered it last weekend, mostly because I found a 25% discount code on Paul Jaminet's site. According to FedEx tracking, it should arrive here sometime today.

I'd be very curious to know how you get on! Can't get this in the UK yet.
 
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